steronz

Heading off to another HPDE this weekend and my pedal is still extremely soft. I can stop the car now, but I'm guessing after a session or two they'll be essentially worthless (as is what happened last time).

This has been a chronic problem with this car that's been getting progressively worse.

Stats:
DA Integra, stock brakes/rotors
Axxis Ultimates and/or Hawk HP+ on the front, either of those on the rear or autozone replacements (changing pads has made no difference in pedal feel)
Goodridge SS brake lines
Brand new OEM master cylinder (doesn't feel noticeably different from the old one)
ATE Superblue, flushed multiple times, most recently with a Motive power bleeder (done this week)

I just re-lubed all the caliper pistons, flushed the system, put on new rear pads, and sanded some glaze off the fronts. Took it out for a spin and it felt roughly the same as the last time I drove home from an HPDE. Crummy.

The pedal doesn't sink, it just has a lot of travel, and when I'm stopped, it's relatively easy to press it to the floor. If I press it 3/4 of the way down and hold constant pressure, the pedal stays put. I think this means my MC is good. MC was bench bled, I'm confident I'm bleeding the system properly.

Only things I haven't replaced are the brake booster and the calipers (all 4 calipers are autozone remans from maybe 4 years ago). Could either of those things cause a soft pedal? What about a high idle (another ongoing problem, idles around 1750 usually, maybe not producing enough vacuum for the booster? I have no idea, I'm saying stupid things now.)

I have rebuild kits for the front calipers, but I'm not sure if I'm going to have time rebuild them before I leave tomorrow morning. I don't want to stab in the dark anymore.

I'm at my wit's end. Help!

Egezzy

iTrader: (2)

sounds like the same issue that spencer had. maybe he will chime in, also i would assume you manually bled them as well? maybe try a gravity bleed of the system. is the pedal soft per a given rpm or soft regardless of load?

steronz

I used to manually bleed them. I tried the Harbor Freight hand pump thing, but that seemed to do a crappier job than the 2-man pedal pump. Out of desperation I plunked down for the Motive bleeder hoping it would be magic. Ends up, it's not so magical. Probably just as good as the manual method, but it didn't add any pedal stiffness.

The pedal seems to be soft regardless of load. I tried left foot braking earlier and it didn't seem to make any difference one way or the other.

FerreiraCompetitions

Does this thing have ABS? Does the pedal ever get hard? Even if its long, will it still firm up at the end or does it always feel mushy?

Iºm sorry to say but if its still mushy its air in the system. Sometimes it can be a bitch to properly get rid of air bubbles trapped in high spots or behind the pistons. Use a mallet to tap the calipers and tap the hardlines etc to try and release them.

steronz

No ABS, pedal can get hard near the floor (enough to lock up the wheels at normal speeds).

If I hook the Motive bleeder back up do I whack the crap out of everything with a mallet while the bleeder is open?

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

Spencer's problem turned out to be bad wheel bearings from what i recall.
Google search topic the archive is there.

steronz

Well, I fully compressed the front calipers and opened the bleeders for a half hour or so while I banged on them periodically, but I was running out of fluid so I had to put a stop to the gravity bleeding. Started up the car and no change to the pedal feel. I'll buy that I've got air in the system somewhere, but I'm at a loss for how to get it out.

Enzo15

You did adjust the booster rod before replacing the MC right? If you dont have the right clearance between the rod and the MC you would have a long travel before engaging the brakes, which would also allow air to stay in the system. Also make sure your Booster is not leaking. If it were your idle would go up from having a vacuum leak.

STN_Pat

I had inverted both calipers on their bracket years ago, left to right up front. Check if you did...we never know.

Lo-Buck EF

My problem was a 10mm bolt in the wrong place (in the pedal in place of the factory plug).
First things first. Make sure there is a little free play in your pedal. That will assure your rod length and brake brake light switch are adjusted correctly.
Next, since you have bled the car and can't get the air out, you can do one of two things. Make up some blockers and figure out where the air is. Or, bleed every section of the system piece by piece. Start by using your motiv to apply pressure to the system. Then crack the lines to the master. Then at the prop valve, then the other side of the prop. Them the soft line connections, then the caliper connections. Finally the caliper bleed ers.

known

iTrader: (1)

good luck! I hope your hpde turns out ok, I have one this weekend too.

I hope the axxis work out for you, they were terrible for me.

steronz

Rained the whole weekend, so it was mostly a non issue. I actually prefer the Ultimates to the HP+ I burned through in less than 4 (track) days. They hold up better and don't fade as much... usually...

So... update. On my long drive out to the track, after flushing and bleeding and re-bleeding everything, the pedal feel slowly got better, to the point where when I got to the track it was pretty good. First day it was all in the rain, second day had a couple mostly dry sessions. I also bled them a bit mid-way through the second day.

For the most part, the brakes were as good as when I first started hitting the track. But after 10 minutes at speed, the fade was intolerable. I know I'm stretching my braking zones too long which doesn't help, but lack of confidence in the brakes causes longer braking zones which causes shittier brakes which erodes confidences which...

Anyway, the amazing thing was that on my drive home, the pedal feel came back like right away. It's never done that before. I was 20 minutes away from the track and the pedal is solid and feels like a new car. So whatever my issue was where I couldn't get the pedal back after a track day, it's gone now. For the moment at least. Assuming there was air in there or something, it's gone now and everything's hunky dory.

I still have the issue of massive, massive brake fade, but I think that just means I need to step up to a real pad. I'm pushing the car pretty damned hard, and this was at Shenandoah, which tends to destroy my brakes anyway.

FlewByU352

I love my ultimates besides the dust and they do seem to eat the rotors lol. But I can stop good :p

Lo-Buck EF

Sounds like your issue is fixed. Now, step up your pads (or buy my itr brakes) and you should be in good shape.
Were you at the glen with nasa north east?

Relic1

sounds like exactly what I have to deal with when I go through my brake system, for some reason I simply can't get it to bleed right.
But if I bleed it to the point where there's no bubbles comming out(pedal is still soft) then drive the car for a few days(gently) the pedal will firm up and work perfectly.
I've given in to the idea that it's due to a slightly more than OEM bend somewhere in the system that doesn't allow an air bubble out like it should.

Loumo

For the first few races this year in are ITA integra(93 DA) we had crazy brake fade and just a crappy pedal. We made some brake ducting and that helped alot. But if you go on any of the IT forums you will see tons of threads about DA integras and crappy pedals. Are last race at sebring the pedal was ok the entire enduro but at the end we just lost the brakes and the car went backwards up a wall. It is very frustrating to deal with this problem and there really is no fix for the long pedal and brake fade. i have learned that you should bleed the brakes everytime the car comes off track and once your pads are at half the life consider them junk and put new ones on. Also brack ducting is very important and helps alot.

steronz

Well that's a bummer. I imagine within the rules of IT there's not much you can do.

Loumo

Yeah it is, can not do much as for upgrades. I will post some pictures later of the brake ducting that we made for are integra. Like i said it has helped out alot, but there is still a soft pedal and its not very confidence inspiring.

914Racer

Look for pictures of the brake cooling deflectors from a Porsche 987/997. They are a nice plastic piece that clips to the lower control arm and helps direct cooling air into the wheels.

Also chuck the backing plates on your rotors, it will help get more air to the brakes. The reality is your dealing with Honda brakes, they will feel like crap pretty much no matter what. When they are good they still feel crappy. You might call Honda and order some new caliper pins and replace those. That can help if the caliper is deflecting due to worn caliper pin bores. Might try adjusting the push rod to help take up some of the slack in the pedals, but don't get it too tight.

Loumo

We just put a set of those on 996 turbo and i was amazed at how simple yet affective those where. We spent probably 6 hours making the brake ducting on the integra and the 996 brake ducting from a GT3 took 5 min and the cost was probably cheaper.

Lo-Buck EF

The da is probably under braked for it's weight. Are you guys fading the pads or the fluid?

Loumo

Well the soft pedal is a common problem on the DA's. Anybody who races them or does alot of track days in them will agree. But to help the brake fade on a DA we made a proper brake ducting system that seems to be working out good for us.

here are some pics and a link to the brake ducting that we did

http://www.ipgparts.net/blog/