Crosser

Actually, Dennis Grant has not won a Pro Solo yet this season, and you don't get a much better start than he does. Aaron Miller has won two in his FWD Neon. Now, is a the start more important in ProSolo than Tours, yes, but it is not the end all be all.

This spoken from someone running an AWD in STS this season. Hehehe.

GSRMatt

IMO, for most cars making power is relatively cheap compared to making the suspension work. Lots of people and parts are out there that have done the development, but only the WC-type teams have done true suspension testing, plus a few people like Daddio and Tunnel on the solo scene. Developing shocks and springs for different surfaces and conditions takes lots of time and money, and doing it right requires some kind of concrete feedback. Not to mention that the entire suspension is open, SM has the potential to spend Mod kind of money developing a chassis/suspension that works, where SP doesn't. And you know how much money the SP guys have spent.

Todd00

Grant has an awesome car, but his abilities to drive it hasn't caught up to the level of his car yet. The ESP Talon that runs cendiv beats Grant every event and I know Grant's car is just as setup as his. However, Stemler has been driving for a while and Grant has not. As for the Neon, I beat it with the other Miller driving, but I have not raced against it with Aaron at the wheel.

In a stock class, like GS for instance, the ITR can beat the talons and WRX's in soloII everytime (assuming good drivers in both cars). In prosolo, this hasn't been happening this year, especially when a good driver shows up in a WRX.

Crosser

Are you kidding?!?!?! There are a bunch of people that have done Suspension testing. Like all of the Top SP, P, M cars out there in the Solo. I know of Top Stock class competetors that are spending $5000 on shocks alone for re valving, dyno testing, on and on. SM is just like SP in suspension tuning, it is not open, they have to use the stock attachment points just like SP. This is right off the SM page:

Suspension componants are unrestricted as long as they use the original attachment points.

Now, don't get me wrong, these guys are going to spend money on suspension, but when you start getting into ballbearing turbo's for quick spooling, and large front mount intercoolers, ... that is the BIG BUCKS. I can see these guys easily spending $10,000 or more on the engine alone.

The point though is that they are going to be spending VERY LARGE AMOUNTS OF $$$$$$ on the entire package. I see it capable of getting to unreal levels.

This is just MHO.

mgent

EDIT: This post is from GSRMatt, my brother must have signed on to my computer this afternoon.


The SM suspension rules are nothing like SP. Components are unrestricted...this means moving all outboard points around. It also means you can make your own inboard points with a bracket or subframe that mounts to the original mounts. A true SM suspension would have aluminum uprights and hubs, tubular adjustable a-arms, and heim joints all around. SP doesn't even allow a lot of popular camber kits. Add custom machining and fabrication of every piece on top of those $5000 shocks and you have an idea of where you can go if you can afford it.

I don't mean to downplay the development of many of the SP competitors, but there is a lot of stuff they are just not allowed to touch, that is wide open in SM. You could build a full-on formula car style suspension on many cars with a little ingenuity.

I didn't say that the engines would be cheap, but the real money is in development time, not parts, and there is a lot more opportunity for experimentation and full redesign in the suspension, the likes of which you don't see in SP.


[Modified by mgent, 1:59 PM 6/25/2001]


[Modified by mgent, 2:00 PM 6/25/2001]

Crosser

My mistake. You guys are right. Sorry for the bad info.

GSRMatt

I was agreeing with you on the cost issue, but I just wanted to emphasize that I think a lot of people (especially the core SM crowd) don't realize how far they really have opened up the rules. Pretty soon all street cars will be out-classed and they'll have nobody to blame but themselves.

lundgren

But at least they'll be street legal cars, which is hardly what I'd be competing against, if I had to run in EM... what a joke that was.

Crosser

That is the real funny thing...by the letter of the law in most states, the mods allowed in this class are not legal. Hehehe.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of the class. It fuels the creative spirit in what would be the fast set up. Developing a very mean street/race car, but until I am independently wealthy, I will stick to cheap classes, like CSP.

fsp31

>>It also means you can make your own inboard points with a bracket or subframe that mounts to the original mounts. A true SM suspension would have aluminum uprights and hubs, tubular adjustable a-arms, and heim joints all around. <<

Suspension is more open in the prepared classes. They don't even have to mess with the bracket to change the 'original mounting points'. People don't complain about extreme potential expense in DP or EP because in reality it doesn't exist (not that it's cheap though...). Fact is, a lot of those super expensive potential mods just aren't going to make the car any faster.

For example: Anyone seen Stan Whitney's DP Miata? It's *awesome*. It also has stock brakes. Why? Big fancy aftermarket brakes don't make it any faster. There are several stock suspension components as well because the factory design is just fine.

maxQ

You may have a valid point about expensive mods not making the car faster, but I would gather the reason Whitney's Miata runs stock brakes is big, fancy aftermarket brakes add a LOT to the unsprung weight...

And it's a Miata which weighs... what? 13 pounds? He could probably cut a hole in his floor, use his foot and stop faster. If someone made $3000 brakes that weighed half the stock brakes... I bet he would have them.

Andy

fsp31

>>And it's a Miata which weighs... what? 13 pounds? He could probably cut a hole in his floor, use his foot and stop faster. <<

Stan drives it with gravel in his pockets on those windy TX afternoons. ;-)

True. If they were out there for some reasonable price he might have them, but that's where the self-limiting aspect of autocross kicks in. For example, even the Realtime Acuras cut a few corners in interest of cost savings. They run NSX intakes. Not that Spoon or somebody doesn't make one that's slightly better, but Realtime gets those for free according to the mechanic I spoke with.