Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

He was in HPDE 3 or 4 - so he likely ran out of talent, pavement, and traction at the same time - single car incident.</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, he wasn't.
This was the guy that clouted the wall in 5 during the "Thunda" race and watched the remainder of the race from the track surface, leaning against the tire wall.
See posts from Brinson and I above.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FLATOUTRACING &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">2) A driver admits he purposely tried to "ram" or knock another car off the track, especially when it's not a simply nudge or turn (in this case it sounds like a T-bone) SHOULD BE BANNED PERMANTELY ........................ PERIOD !!!!

If you can't control your emotions you don't belong on any race track.

there is no excuse for allowing such a lunatic back on the race track.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Stop being such a negative hater.
If you can't add anything nice or positive, we don't care what you have to say.

Damned racer type ********. What the hell do you know anyway?

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This was the guy that clouted the wall in 5 during the "Thunda" race and watched the remainder of the race from the track surface, leaning against the tire wall.
See posts from Brinson and I above.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Weird. Wonder what he was doing out in a school group earlier in the day then.

ryan12321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Weird. Wonder what he was doing out in a school group earlier in the day then.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah he was out in our 4 session saturday. Probably 2 different drivers as well as I was able to keep him behind me for awhile.

wildhorsesracing

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">See posts from Brinson and I above.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Karl, Why do you post this stuff on a forum two days later and not bring it to my attention at the track? Sounds like a **** starter to me, and to think we cut you some slack this past weekend when you wanted to 'instruct' but only your 'friends' and only 'one' day and you had to 'drive' their car so they would know what to do and...and... and... - this is the payback we get for being nice and treating you like an adult and accomodating your special needs?!?!?

Was the AI driver chastised for the swerve?
COMPLETELY and he will never do it again - no matter what the circumstances - in fact he will not race at a NASA-SE event again in 2005.

Was the AI driver at fault for the incident at T7?
NO, even the corner worker logs indicated it was a 'racing incident'.

As for Brinson, that's another complete story that is OBVIOUSLY not being completely told here - and he is the basis for my comment about alcohol.

As for the corner workers, they are the same SCCA trained & certified ones that Road Atlanta uses for all of their events (Superbike, ALMS, Petite Lemans, Mitty, etc) and I can give you the phone # of their chief if you have a beef with them.

We did have some of our (NASA) workers in the buckets with them to be trained, but every bucket that was manned, was manned by a Road Atlanta SCCA certified worker. So if what you say is true about the guy standing along the track in a dangerous place - then it was an SCCA certified Road Atlanta worker that allowed it to happen. Does the SCCA know that you are bashing their workers? I know that we (NASA) feel they are the best in their field, but obviously your opinion differs.

The beauty of these forums is that everyone is 'free to speak their minds' - and usually most only have 1/2 the facts - or only tell 1/2 the story. Which means that 1/2 of what is posted is an opinion and not based on fact.

and you know what they say about 'opinions'...

Last but not least, the fact is - AI will never race with HC again in the SE, so this issue will never rise again. It is dead.

By all means, if you see anything at a NASA-SE event that you feel is unsafe or wrong - please let us know at the track and not wait 24-48 hrs and post it on a forum!

chrisb

Jim,

You mean Scott, not Karl. I don't know what all the references are to me and alcohol. I brought a 6 pack of Newcastle and the other Chris had 2 of those. I also had one Light beer of some kind. All over about a 4 hour period from ~4 to 8. Child's play. What story is to be told? Did I offer to kick that little bitch Sidney's ***? Yes. I admitted so above. Did I call him Cindy, and a coward and tell him he was lucky he did not put someone in a morgue by bumping him at 120? Yes indeed. You see, unlike that lying sack of ****, I will man up to what I do or say. Would I do the same thing again? Probably. If I was stone cold sober, probably. I like you Jim but I would have yanked that SOB off track for that stunt. Period. You can say whatever you want on this forum or any other but nothing changes the fact that you dropped the ball there. That bitch bragged to Parker and me on Sat. that he will be racing tomorrow and was smug about the whole thing. Post what other half of the story there is Jim. I begged that little girl Sidney to put his case of oil that he "won" down and fight me like a man rather than have to hide behind a car or a gun like some coward. And I don't regret that. I don't know how you handle things where you are from, but in Georgia if you try to murder someone at 120 mph you at the very least get your *** kicked. Parker is one mature 19 yr old. If that were me he tried to murder I would have beat the **** out of him. You damn sure don't get invited back to race the next day. Funny thing is, you guys will probably ban me for inviting a guy to handle things like a man. Yet, I never touched that little bitch. Feel free to email me if you want to discuss further or post the nonexistant other half of my story.


Modified by chrisb at 12:22 AM 8/16/2005

Catch 22

This is true. So here are some facts.

Fact #1 - My name is Scott
Fact #2 - Several of the NASA regular HPDE guys asked if I would be at the event this weekend to help them out with their cars and the track. I agreed, but can't ride shotgun due to neck problems. You and I discussed this via email last week.
I drove 8 hours round trip and took about 10 moderately slow laps with 3 different passengers TO HELP THEM. I sure as hell didn't get anything out of it but $100 in gas poorer.
But since NASA views this as being nice and meeting my special needs I can promise you that it will never happen again.

Fact #3 - "Chastised," as you can see from the racer opinions in this thread, doesn't cut it. I tried for about 15 minutes to convince you of this Saturday afternoon and you would hear nothing of it.
Fact #4 - You didn't bother to tell anyone that he would not be doing anymore NASA SE events in 05. Had you done so, it might have eased tensions (a little).

Fact #5 - Nobody there or here says the AI driver was at fault in turn 7. Actually most of us stated the the HC driver should have been penalized for that one. What is pissing everyone off (in case you haven't noticed) is the lack of sanction to the AI driver for the retaliation after turn 7.

Fact #6 - We did. About 10 of us. Multiple times.
I'm not sure you even heard the part about the guy standing on the track. You were told, but your radio kept beeping, it was dumping rain, and you were surrounded by a bunch of pissed off Honda people.
Fair enough. I can understand how you missed that one, and frankly in the face of the angry lynch mob that was about to form the corner worker thing was a feather in the wind.
And you seemed OK with your decision about the AI guy, even with a large group of people around you (including me) trying to convince you otherwise.
So don't whip out that "stir up **** on the web" copout Jim. Chad actually went and got you to come talk to Brinson, Towne and I because we had witnessed the backstraight incident. We were all standing right there.

Fact #7 - I haven't stirred up anything. I'm just saying what happened. Honestly, I'm not creative enough to make up **** like this.

Fact #8 - Chris Brinson was nowhere near the neighborhood of intoxicated. Not even close. As a spectator he had had a couple of beers while watching the race and that is all.
What he WAS, was grossly pissed off about having WITNESSED a guy intentionally try to wreck another guy and NOT GET PENALIZED IN ANY WAY for it.
If you read this thread closely Jim, you'll see that this pissed off quite a few racers and Chris is a racer (when he can afford to be).

We've known each other for years Jim, and I've always thought you were a hell of a guy, but hopefully you learned alot more than "Don't run HC and AI together" this weekend. You also lost at least one planned future NASA racer who was observing your response to the backstraight situation.

I don't need that number, I have it.
I'll be sure to let Stan know he might need to watch his workers more closely when he is not around.

krshultz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildhorsesracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Karl, Why do you post this stuff on a forum two days later and not bring it to my attention at the track?</TD></TR></TABLE>

You've got the wrong guy.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildhorsesracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">in fact he will not race at a NASA-SE event again in 2005.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Now *this* is the right course of action. I'd even suggest that I could see your "not race at a NASA-SE event again in 2005" and raise you a "will never race with NASA-Anything Ever." If you've got a guy attempting vehicular manslaughter - twice - and telling you after the fact that he did it - do the rest of us a favor and get him a set of golf clubs. Stick his license in the bag with the tees.

MaddMatt

Umm....wow

wildhorsesracing

Karl: I aplogize, I get you & Scott mixed up all the time, primarily because I know both of you have always raced together and both of you started Honda Challenge together. So I typed karl and meant to type Scott.

Scott: Yes, what might have been perceived as inactivity was my doing my best to diffuse a tense situation before someone did something stupid and ended up in jail. By the way, the Race Control and the team leader for the workers name is Jim C. So maybe you're facts are tainted with some opinion - do you have any pics of the guy standing on the back straight? I still have doubts that an SCCA trained worker would allow someone to be in a precarious position.

Brinson: I am sure your 'Georgia' manhood is intact, I am sure alcohol had nothing to do you picking a fight with a person with 6-8 friends behind you for backup when you attempted to 'settle the score' - somehow I would be leery of you when faced with that scenario as well.

Truth is, the whole situation has been handled, everyone directly involved has been treated like an adult and feels that justice was served. I had full intentions of issuing serious sanctions Sunday morning after the angry mob dissipated and everyone slept on it. But the foolish "GANG-LIKE" activities late saturday nite turned the tables drastically and made it hard for me to follow my initial plan.

We may have lost one driver due to my 'perceived' inactivity, but in case you didn't notice I had 7 drivers came up to me at the sunday morning meeting fearing for their lives due to Saturday nite's "BRINSON GANG" activities.

What I am saying is, let the NASA officials do their job, what may be perceived as inactivity might be a well thought out plan and they choose NOT to tell you until you need to know.

As for the corner workers, please quit slamming them, someday you might need them.

Markus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildhorsesracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Truth is, the whole situation has been handled</TD></TR></TABLE>

Uh, doesn't sound like it to me.

It doesn't matter that HC and AI will never run together again. The point is, you had a driver INTENTIONALLY and ADMITTEDLY try to take out another car while on track and while at high speed. Then this person was still allowed to race the next day.

You will never be able to convince me that qualifies as "handling" things.

- Mark

apexinghonda

On the corner worker "letting" a driver stand on track, I just wanted to make a comment. I do not have the benefit of knowing which corner, whether driver's left or right and the orientation of the driver to the corner worker location. So I admit I don't have a lot of the facts needed to make a "judgment" on that and I will not.

I have worked a corner before (SIC at Roebling) where a formula atlantic driver lost it driver's left on the exit of turn four and was therefore across track from me and I was at the slightly downstream responder's station at T4. His car was in the "sand" trap but clearly in an area where another driver could lose it and hit his car. The driver gets out of his car, stands UPSTREAM of his car but next to it creating the condition where he would get pinned if another car lost it on the same trajectory. He then takes his helmet off and turns his back to traffic standing in the same place. You can't get any dumber or more dangerous than that.

Now what did I do? I was not about to cross a hot track with fast formula atlantic cars running nor would race control grant such a request under the circumstances. The driver was creating his own dangerous scenario. I did what I was suppose to do. I gestured wildly and blew my whistle as loud and as much as I could to get his attention. But he was not paying attention. Then my worst fears looked like they were going to be realized. Another formula car lost it on the same trajectory straight towards the driver and the car. If I would have responded I would have been in the same danger of being hit. The car had a "wave" of sand in front of it as it traveled through the sand trap. The formula driver? Still oblivious with his back to traffic. I just knew I would be invoking the disaster plan any moment. The car that went off happen to stop about five feet short of hitting the driver and when he was engulfed in the flying sand from the car, boy that woke him up.

He NOW saw me gesturing wildly and then heard my whistle telling him to get over the sand bunker and into the woods. He was lucky not to get hit. After the track went cold to tow both cars in he saw me and the flag chief coming over to talk to him. Before we could even get all the way up to him he said, "that was really stupid wasn't it?" to which we resonded yes, and he said he would never do that again.

The point is a driver is suppose to know certain safety procedures when he goes racing. Turning your back on race traffic upstream of your car and taking your helmet off on a hot track is nothing but dangerous. A corner worker is not and should not run across a hot track to correct that error. That puts the corner worker in extreme danger. In that scenario all you can do is try and get their attention. The situation would be different with a hurt driver or entrapped driver with a fire but then all kinds of flags would be showing very quickly at that point. Whether this scenario in any way applies to what happened last weekend I have no idea.

Barry H.

Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildhorsesracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What I am saying is, let the NASA officials do their job, what may be perceived as inactivity might be a well thought out plan and they choose NOT to tell you until you need to know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

That simply won't work in a situation where someone feels that someone else has intentionally tried to harm them. Many of us tried in vain to communicate this to you Saturday evening.

At the end of the day, you are in fact the boss Jim. But understand that the cause of the "Brinson Gang" and drivers "fearing for their lives" was your failure to immediately and decisively sanction a driver who did something totally unaccaptable on the track.
Had you kicked that guy out to highway 53 (as it seems every experienced racer in this thread agrees should have happened) none of the awful stuff that happened that evening would have happened.

Again, its your sandbox, do what you want.
But I hope you are seeing the feedback you are getting here from a bunch of different people (mostly NASA racers... experienced ones).

ryan12321

Jim,
There was one thing that bothered me. While I was out watching the thunder race from pit wall the grey integra had fuel comming out of the side of the car. Quite a bit. I'm guessing from a missing gas cap. I personally came and told you about it and still saw the car flying by many laps after that. I'd think that'd be a pretty serious fire hazard when gas is comming out of the car while driving. Just wondering if anything was ever done about that.


As for the corner workers I had no complaint except turn 7 which most of the time in both hpde 1 and 2 they were just sitting in chairs facing the skidpad area. It was hard to find time between instructing 2 students, driving, and heat to remember to tell anybody about that though.


And BTW I was one of the potential nasa racers that do not ever plan on racing with nasa if these things are allowed to happen. If potential drivers and others are not in a "need to know" situation about what might happen when they're racing I'd rather go race somewhere else. I like the NASA programs, but safety is always more important IMO. You have to be able to convince us we're in good hands if you expect people to want to drive with you.

apexinghonda

Well if there were corner workers with their back to the track surface I feel confident that would not be Hazel doing that. That is unsafe for both the driver and the corner worker. Yeah that is something that should be brought to the flag chief's attention ASAP. I know that is NOT the SCCA way of manning a corner. You don't turn your back to the track and you don't sit down anytime the track is hot. Makes standing for 9 hours or more a little tough sometimes but you can't get quickly get out of the way of something bad sitting on your ****.

Barry H.

wildhorsesracing

ryan12321: I did report the fuel spillage to race control and they had all of the workers study the car as it went by, they did not see anything coming out of the car from that point on.

Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by apexinghonda &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The point is a driver is suppose to know certain safety procedures when he goes racing. Turning your back on race traffic upstream of your car and taking your helmet off on a hot track is nothing but dangerous. A corner worker is not and should not run across a hot track to correct that error. That puts the corner worker in extreme danger. In that scenario all you can do is try and get their attention. The situation would be different with a hurt driver or entrapped driver with a fire but then all kinds of flags would be showing very quickly at that point. Whether this scenario in any way applies to what happened last weekend I have no idea.

Barry H. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with your whole post Barry.
But this situation was different. The driver was standing on the track about 10 feet from the bucket at times, and no attempt was made to get him off the track.
Drivers *should* know better, but maybe this guy didn't. Or maybe he was dazed from having just smacked a wall at 80mph. Who knows.
Maybe the sparse workers in the area (Only 2 in turn 5, where there are typically 4 or 5 workers on an SCCA weekend) had the one experienced guy flustered and he just didn't think about getting the guy off the track.
In retrospect, this one guy (in the "Corner Marshall" whites in the photo on page 2) was trying to do the flagging, radio communicating, and crashed driver communicating by himself. His "help" wasn't being much help.
Its highly possible that the worker was just overwhelmed, but its a good damned thing another car didn't lose it in that corner.

Jim, we did not have a camera, but if anybody has any clear in-car video of the last 5 laps of the race you'll likely be able to see the guy standing there. As cars apexed turn 5 they were pointed right at him.

And I love workers. I wave at them, donate to the worker fund, and one never leaves my paddock spot without a beer or a soda.
But I'm not going to tiptoe through a situation that could have KILLED someone just to keep from pissing someone off. I don't share this to be an ***, I share it to hopefully help NASA, SCCA, Superbikes... Whoever... Make sure it never happens again.

Scott, always willing to be a dick to save a life.

wildhorsesracing

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ryan12321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
As for the corner workers I had no complaint except turn 7 which most of the time in both hpde 1 and 2 they were just sitting in chairs facing the skidpad area. It was hard to find time between instructing 2 students, driving, and heat to remember to tell anybody about that though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's interesting, T7 was manned by Hazel, she would be one of the best corner workers we have ever worked with.

chrisb

In all honesty, I am mistified by the whole Brinson gang thing and people saying they are fearing for their lives. 6 or 7 people? I only ever talked to Sidney. And I walked down separately from Parker and his two friends (which were standing back a good ways while Parker talked to Sidney.) When Sidney walked away from Parker I approached him then and no one was within 20 feet or more. Sidney asked me who I was because he never even saw me standing with Parker and his two friends. I told Sidney I witnessed his act of cowardice. That people like him are real men when hiding behind a car or a gun. I then invited him to set his case of oil down and settle this thing like a man rather than ramming people with his car. He declined and walked off. I called him a little bitch and a few other names, got in my car and went home. End of story.

I am hardly an intimidating person or a fighter. That is really the point. What happened pissed me off that much. Jim, who are you even getting this crap from? I take back what I said earlier though. I don't like you much. You are actually quite the ******* and have evidently judged me on something I never did. I only met Parker that weekend so though he is a nice guy I would hardly say I had my friends backing me up. You have watched one too many gangster movies man. Seriously.

Catch 22

Brinson is very intimidating.
In a hippie skateboarder kind of way...

And I've never seen him that mad. "Livid" is the word I would choose.

ryan12321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by wildhorsesracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">That's interesting, T7 was manned by Hazel, she would be one of the best corner workers we have ever worked with.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I figured it was just because it was an HPDE group which you can usually tell when somehting happens at 7. I doubt it would have happened during one of the race groups.

Catch 22

By the way.

This...

I was one of the potential nasa racers that do not ever plan on racing with nasa if these things are allowed to happen. If potential drivers and others are not in a "need to know" situation about what might happen when they're racing I'd rather go race somewhere else. I like the NASA programs, but safety is always more important IMO. You have to be able to convince us we're in good hands if you expect people to want to drive with you.


Sums it up.
RJ can go ahead and lock the thread, 'cause nothing else is going to trump that.

Back in Black

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Brinson is very intimidating.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Bad girls bad girls...

Jason-
who wonders who remembers that other than he, and is just trying to add a little humor to a not-so-humorous subject

wildhorsesracing

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Intentionally running into someone on the straight?</TD></TR></TABLE>

From all of the videos I studied there was some serious swerving going on and in each case there was another slower/faster car that was being avoided on the straightaway - no cars broadsided any other cars.

Again, this was a direct result of such a gross mismatch of vehicle speeds in the same run group, and it won't happen again.

And for the record I agree with Barry 100% as well, if a driver is going to put him/herself in a precarious position, as a corner-worker I would do all I could to get their attention but still make sure my life wasn't in any serious danger. In my pre-NASA racing days I saw a driver get out and try to fix his car while a race was going on, the worker was frantically trying to get him back in his car but his head was obvously up his tailpipe!

Moral of the story: Use your head, stay in your car, wave to a worker to let them know you are alright.

apexinghonda

Scott, I looked on page two and I see the mustang with a corner worker which I assumed was a cold track scenario. Trying to picture his location in my mind with you saying turn 5 was he driver's right past the apex and to the right of the gator teeth many (like myself) like to run across? Now if he was there yeah he needed to get the hell out of there and would then be on the same side as the corner worker station (that turn is usually manned both sides at SCCA events).

If the corner marshall had another worker with him, he should have first gone down to the fence with a big *** loud whistle and gotten the driver's attention. If that didn't work then a decision would need to be made to enter the track and get the driver, QUICKLY. As a corner worker I could see doing that in that location. Whey they did not, I don't know. RA has landlines and so the communicator can't go mobile. Then that driver should have been sent to the steward to discuss not knowing any better than to stand in a likely run off/impact zone. I have run up a hot track with a fire bottle when a GT-1 car threw a rod and started a pretty good oil fire up from 10a so I will take some risk but I want to see some pretty heavy flagging going on before I do.

When I have worked Petit LeMan and World Challenge in turn 3 (twice) we had SEVEN corner workers with one being responder across track. But then when you are working a 14 hour day (WC races plus a 10 hour event) two people are always on break. I bet on my corner crew we had over a 100 years of experience collectively with me not adding much to that tally. I learned a whole lot each time and was communicator during both events at stints. You better be on the ball, calm, descriptive, clear and concise to race control or they will drive out and pull you off of the headset.

Barry H.

chrisb