GSRMatt

I've been getting more and more involved with running our local club the last couple years (Equipe Rapide in South Florida). It is a non-SCCA club and has been in existence for about 40 years. I've run with them on and off for the last 6-7 years, and it had mostly been a core group of people running the event with few newcomers. We averaged 40-50 cars per event so we were real flexible with run groups, worker assignments, and other responsibilities. Problem is the last year or so we've been getting 15-20 rank newbies every event and over 100 cars. This means without a rigid structure we have people running out of order, and workers get stuck on course for a long time while others don't work at all.

We've tried a couple new things this year but haven't really overhauled the organization like we need to. I've been keeping track of who has been working and who hasn't so we can nix their times if they don't, but that ends up with me spending the entire day walking through the pits asking for more workers. We started using a laptop to keep track of times (its been manual up to this year) but frankly that has just slowed everything down and made it so times are posted less often. We just input them into an excel spreadsheet, but printing it takes some time because you have to sort them and our printer is deadly slow.

Our registration hasn't been all that bad, and we have gotten everyone's runs in by the end of the day. But I think if we add more structure to the day the core group of people will have less work to do, and it will be an overall more enjoyable experience. This weekend was really a disaster as we ran our once-a-year endurocross where the runs were ~2:20 (only two instead of four) and we ended up running really long.

Our main problems:

-not everyone works
-run groups not adhered to
-no PA system
-times not posted often enough
-people leave when they're done (before trophies) so a small group is left to clean everything up

I'm working on getting a working PA, and I'm starting to write a program that will let us track times and post them more often (can't use the regular ones due to our speed trial events...thats another story).

What I'm really looking for is suggestions on setting up run groups. Figure we'll have between 80 and 120 cars to do 4 runs in a day. We've been having 3 run groups split up by class, and usually do two runs per heat. So each group gets two runs in the morning and two runs in the afternoon. If we have around 100 cars, how many groups should I split them up into? I've been at clubs that have between 3 and 12 run goups. For where we run I don't think its practical to have more than 20 cars in grid at once, so I'm thinking around 5. I'd really like to have it so people only work once, and that they know when that is going to be so we can keep track of it. Should I make run groups by sign in, or by class? I'd prefer by class, but we could potentially end up with significantly different size groups. This weekend for some reason there were a ton of slower stock cars (b through h stock) and that group was twice as large as normal.

Anyways, I know there are a few ways of doing it, and some that I probably haven't seen, so please post how your club organizes its events.

Matt

WRXRacer111

I would love to tell you about the great organization of my club but umm... suffice it to say that I think there are more efficient ways to do it. Designing courses that can flow 3 cars at a time really shortens the event time. Preregistration helps to set up run groups too, since if you have a pretty close estimate on the number of cars in each class, you can set up run groups accordingly. Apart from that, I think I'll leave it to the resident Tarheel Sportscar Club folks on the board to explain their system, since they run a pretty tight ship with class run groups and split morning/afternoon sessions. krshultz, r2x, MaddMatt, Whitney SPEAK UP!

00R101

I like what Philly region does the best. They have 4 run groups. Each run group is numbered and has a fixed group of classes in it ( example Run group 1 might have SS AS BS CS DS and associated ladies classes) Then they have a split day format so that the morning session has run group 1 and 2 and the afternoon has run group 3 and 4. If you are in run group 1 then you work for run group 2. They have registration twice. ionce for the morning and once in the afternoon. They have 2 awards presentations one at the end of the morning one at the end of the afternoon. The afternoon awards do not get distributed until after clean-up. They alternate which run group runs when:

First event run order is 1234
2nd event 2341
3rd 3412
4th 4123
5th 2143
6th 3214
etc

Other suggestions -have a driver's meeting and make sure you tell everyone that they MUST work one heat for each heat they drive.

Have a separate beginner's meeting so that you don't bore experienced competitors with repetitions.

Use preregistration / permanent numbers to ease the data entry burden at registration. Also consider technologies such as barcodes to ease the entry for returning competitors.

Develop job descriptions and work-flow diagrams for the registration process. Make registration a job assignment and train as many people as possible.

Most important -try to continue to have fun. Organizing events with over 100 competitors can be exasperating; but it can also be rewarding.

Regards,
Alan

PS I have a software package that you may be interested in - respond to me privately.

MaddMatt

Tarheels Sports Car Club rules!!!!

We've implemented several changes this year, especially to run groups. Mike (Whitney), Karl (Shultz) and Shawn (Snapspinr) are our auto-x VPs, so I'll let them explain in better detail.

Here's what I know:
Length of course matters not. Launch interval is all that matters. It's got to be in the 25-30 second range.
Course design must allow a launch interval in this range.
At times this year, THSCC has had 3 cars running on a 45 second course.
Our last event had 140 people get 4 competition runs in 5 hours. We then had over an hour of fun runs before trophies were presented.

We use a JACircuits timer, which allows up to 4 cars on course at once.
We use TS98 for timing and scoring. This is the same program the SCCA uses, except they're on TS01 now, or something like that.
I'm intrigued by your working problem. At our 140 driver event, I had 2 people not work. It doesn't seem to be an issue with us. We tell everyone that the event cannot and will not happen unless we have people ******** cones. If they skip working, they get no timed runs, plus we'll make them work before they run next time they come out.

Mike, Karl, Shawn? Who's up?

Matt
member at large of North Carolina's Premier Amature Motorsports Organization

krshultz

Here is some feedback from the autocross part of THSCC.

We (Tarheel Sports Car Club) are running into the same problem - too many people wanting to autocross with us. To accomodate this, we have made a lot of changes this year to get things running more efficiently. A lot of this year's changes have focused on making the events themselves run more smoothly - we already had a pretty good registration system.

1. Fixed run groups. This really depends on what kinds of cars show up at your events. Typically we get 50% stock cars, and 50% everything else (give or take a few cars). There's information on our web page describing this: check out http://www.thscc.com/rungroups.html And if our preregistration list shows an imbalance, we can shift a group (street tire or pro usually) from one to the other.

2. A split grid. We have to lines - line A and line B. Let's say you drive in rungroup 1 and 3, and are signed up to work in rungroup 2. Well, during rungroup 1, you grid in line "A", and that line goes before B. That way the people who work next have time to go park their car, get a drink, and take a breath before going to their worker assignment.

3. Signing up for work assignments at registration. This makes things a lot easier on the worker change coordinators and makes sure drivers know where they need to be at what time.

4. Entry limits. A topic of hot debate, and a policy that we're still sorting out. To keep us officers sane (and preserve quality events for club members) we've put entry caps on all our events.

5. Online preregistration. http://www.thscc.com/prereg.html. When you get to the event, if you're preregistered, all you do is pay, and sign the waiver. With the fixed run groups and the preassigned worker heats, the day is crystal clear to most drivers.

6. For those drivers who are novices (and for whom this stuff might not be crystal clear) we have a separate novice table with two people assigned to it to answer questions about working, the cone rule, whatever.

7. Good course overlap. This is critical. If you have a course that's 45 seconds for most cars, obviously you'd like to launch cars every 22.5 seconds rather than every 45 or 50. Careful course design will get you good overlap in all but the most space-constrained sites.

8. Worker positions for "the important stuff" are preassigned. Especially the crew that works in timing. We have a team of probably 20 or so members that are trained on the computer (we use TS2000 software and a JA Circuits timer box connected to a Dell laptop). That way, if I don't show up at an event, there are plenty of people to back me up - without making them pull a double shift.

9. Require clearly marked car numbers. We have magnetics for sale, or paper (put them on with tape) available for free. You'd be amazed how much easier it is for timing to count cones on a car if the workers on course can clearly identify it as "DSP 23."

10. Regular brainstorming sessions amongst the club officers to hash out ideas on how to improve the club.

11. More on course design. Don't design courses that force people to hit cones. Design courses that force people to hang themselves with the line, or with technique. The more cones people hit, the more potential red flags (and accompanying downtime) you get.

12. Get good timing equipment, and have a backup incase someone hits it or it fails.

Many of these things we've just started doing this year. In years past the club ran a high quality event but these changes have really made the difference. When we ran at VMP I think we got 110 or so cars in and out of there, on a 60-ish second course, 4 runs a piece, in like 4 hours or something. At peak throughput we could launch a car every 22 seconds - we were actually limited by the ability of the timing staff to keep up with such a fast launch interval, and by the inability of the courseworkers to run fast enough. If lots of cones went down (someone spun) we needed to red flag. In defence of the courseworkers, VMP requires us to use non-permanent markings for cones. We set up on a Friday, there was a drag race on Sat, and then we ran on Sunday...so some of the cone boxes weren't all that easy to see. WRT timing - our new requirement for clear (NO shoepolish!) numbers is something our members are just getting used to. I think me and Mike (who chaired the event) simply forgot to go over how to call cones in the drivers' meeting. "Plus 25 on BS 8" is all we need. Chalk it up to the growing pains of trying new things...we had to ratchet back the launch interval to a whopping 30 seconds

All these changes are aimed, obviously, at increasing our efficiency. Which will in turn allow us to (possibly) bump up our entry limit.

(Edit 1: to deal with Matt's smartassed comment I finished my thought. And I tried to explain the timing thing so Diane won't be mad at me )


[Modified by krshultz, 9:45 PM 8/15/2001]

r2x

Just one correction. Matt's right we still use TS98, even though Paula's gone to TS200 or 2001 even at SCCA stuff. The reason is that after TS98, the TimeQue part that got the times directly from the timer no longer worked. Just a beware if someone has one and might be looking to "upgrade".

THSCC has worked hard over the last several years to get computerized and run smooth events. With the changes the officers have made this year, things are going even better. I'm proud of my club.

Way to go guys!!!

Pork Chop

To add to what Alan posted, having run groups with fixed classes is a good idea because it

1) allows you to plan ahead and keep the run groups balanced. From the past season's results, you can see which classes are heavily populated and which are not. Based on that info, you can put certain classes in certain run groups to maintain some balance.

2) it's also more fair to the competitors if everyone in a class runs in the same run group. What stops someone from signing up for a later run group where the surface conditions might be better?


Other comments:

I think you should do away with the morning/afternoon heat system. Give them one set of runs, be it morning or afternoon. This will allow the morning people to leave early and salvage the rest of the day to do other stuff. This also allows the afternoon people to sleep in a little more and not be forced to show up at 730am. If you rotate run groups throughout the season, everyone will get their "turn" to run early or late. This also allows people to work only once at each event.


Having 2 run groups in the morning and 2 in the afternoon is a good idea, but brings up a problem. Group 1 runs while group 2 works and vice versa. You'll get some downtime during the worker changeover. It might even take some time to tech the cars. That's time lost.

To get around this, you can try 4 run groups for the morning (and afternoon). Group 1 runs 1st, works 3rd. Group 2 runs 2nd, works 4th. Group 3 runs 3rd, works 1st for group 1. Group 4 runs 4th and works for group 2. This way, once group 1 is done, group 2 is already ready to go (you have 2 grids set up BTW) and the workers (group 4) are also ready to work. Meanwhile, the group 3 folks move into the grid formerly occupied by group 1, and gets teched.


To solve the absentee worker problem, you'll probably need to checkoff the workers rather than an honor system.


If your region does fun runs at the end of the day, collect drivers licenses and don't give them back until the course has been cleaned up.


The overlap should be 20-25 seconds. If your course has a crossover, try and put it earlier in the course rather than later.


Another thing you might try is an annual tech inspection. Get teched once per year and you're issued a sticker that's good for the entire season.

Grumpy

All comments so far seem to be for autocross events. Will you be running TTs on a race circuit as well???

Grumpy

krshultz

THSCC does indeed have a time trials program with which I'm involved (see http://www.thscc.com/timetrial). As grumpy mentioned, a lot of the stuff I mentined above doesn't apply to a time trial - stuff like the worker assignment stuff, the split grid, etc. Anywho, here's what we do to make our TT events run well.

1. Grid is based on a "dial in time." Over the course of the day, TT drivers are encouraged to have someone get some lap times for them. Come time for the TT, they'll write a dial-in on the windshield. This allows the grid marshall to group cars in such a way that there won't be any "catch ups."

2. As with the autocross program, we have a computerized timing system. It allows for the following features:
- 3 cars on track at the same time
- dynamically add or remove a car from the group (like if someone goes off)
Our TT software is much simpler than the autocross software but to this point it has served our needs well.

3. We do either one or two warmup laps (depending on where the timing lights are), three hot laps, and a cooldown.

4. As one group of three TT cars is cooling down, we send out the next "hot" group for warmup. Similar to the way NASA sends out a pace truck - this gets us zero downtime.

5. Having things computerized makes it a nobrainer to do printouts and such.

6. Here again, regular meetings with the people involved made sure we all sang from the same sheet of music - and provided us with some of the ideas we've had through brainstorming and a lot of "what if" stuff.

The Time Trials program took a lot of initial input from people experienced in organizing events. Peter Krause (of http://www.krauseandengland.com), one of the EMRA organizers, as well as the person who used to work control at Car Guys events all provided valuable feedback.

More later...must...go...back...to...work...

MaddMatt

This is kind of what we are doing, except for the tech part, with groups 1A, 1B, 2A, and 2B. Groups 1A and 1B line up in grid in their respective lines. If you work the next run heat, you line up in group "A". "A" group goes first and gets both of their runs. They go back to the pits, grab a drink, go to the bathroom and report to the worker steward. While the guys in the B line are finishing up, we send the guys that just ran in the "A" line out to replace the workers. We do worker changes on the fly. No downtime.

ctenche

Excellent thread.

I'd love some more information on how other clubs hold TT/Solo 1 events. How many competitors do you have per event? How many runs does each competitor get? What are the average lap times?

Here in Ontario at the Solo 1 Regional Championship series we have a 14 event series that spans 3 motorsport complexes across southern Ontario. In total, there are approximatley 6 different tracks that we compete on.

We have between 50-75 people per event. We generally have 4 runs consisting of a warmup lap, three hot timed laps and a cool down lap. The average lap takes between 55 - 82 seconds depending on the track that we're at.

Our day starts with a one hour morning lapping session followed by the timed sessions. We have 3 run groups; X, Y, and Z. When X and Y are running, Z is working and so on. If there is time available, we have afternoon lapping as well.

Our events run fairly smooth but there are always problems with improperly gridded cars which cause yellows to be thrown up a lot. And of course, getting workers out to their assigned posts is another big headache.

I know there is room for improvement in our system and would love to hear from others to see how they're doing things.

MaddMatt

Another interrupted incomplete thought, brought to you by Shultz

r2x

In our (the timing crew's) defense... we were launching cars every 20 seconds, there were 3 cars on course all the time, and the course workers liked telling us which cones got hit, but not necessarily how many or on who... That cone call issue quickly got rectified though (I run timing first heat)... wonder how many workers I pissed off...

GSRMatt

Yes, we also run time trials (typically the Sunday of a two-day race weekend). Usually we manage to get the autocross done by 3:30-4PM on Saturday and run our school and some practice time on Saturday afternoon as well. For our time trials (we actually call them speed trials and call our autocrosses time trials) we do a 10 minute practice session first thing after tech, 7 cars on track at once with a dedicated passing alley. Afterwards we do 3 cars on track for timed sessions (now ~45 second laps since we lost our big site)...warm up, three hot, warm down. The next group warms up as the last is cooling down.

For timing we have a JAC timer with max of 4 cars but no input to the computer, its all timed manually. Speed trial timing goes OK until someone spins and then we're screwed, have to start over for however many hot laps they have left. We also have a hard time convincing people they need to stay spaced out during the warm up and sometimes someone gets caught. For a standard autocross we can get someone off every 30 seconds or so, last weekend was different as the tracked looped back on itself so we had over 1:30 with just one car on course.

Our problem with workers for the speed trial is that we have three sessions...practice, run1, and run2, with 3 run groups separated by class. We usually have 40-60 cars for the event, so ~20 cars per group. We need about 10 workers at a time to keep things going (not including timing and registration which are handled separately). So I need each person to work about 1.5 times during the day, I ask for two, but by the end of the day everyone has worked at least once and doesn't want to anymore. This goes back to my original question about run groups...maybe I should make the run groups the same size as my necessary worker list (plus a small buffer), so that people only have to work once and I don't ever have too many workers (which happens sometimes in the morning). As it stands I have 20-25 people for 10 spots, of which 15 report for practice, 5 report for run1, and 1 reports for run 2.

All of this is acerbated by the fact that we don't shut down between run groups (club pres has a thing about an empty track), and without a PA nobody really knows when one heat or run group ends and the next begins. I've been tracking workers by name on a clipboard, but I've had a tough time with timing giving me the sheets before they're posted so I can audit the workers and cross out their times.

Drivers meetings...we do have one each day, and I usually get a few minutes to talk about workers. We also have a separate meeting afterwards for first-timers. Problem is the club pres rambles on for a while, people get bored and start walking away, and sometimes he forgets some important details. Maybe I should write up a script. Then they get all upset when I cross out their times on the board claiming they didn't know. I think I need to print everything up in big letters to post on the board to re-inforce or remind people of the schedule and worker responsibilities.

We're not quite to the limit where we have to run two separate events like some clubs do, morning and afternoon. To do that we'd have to have registration and tech running all day, which won't work the way it is now. We're also not setup to do preregistration or online, but we do have permanent numbers so regular members can get through registration pretty quick.

As for how to divvy up run groups...I sat with our entries for last year and figured out all the averages so we had 3 equal size groups (ended up AS thru HS, all SP, and everything else). But last two events we've had lots of newbies, all in stock cars, so that the stock group was twice as large as everything else. As much as I think its the right thing to do to group classes together, I think worker wise and size wise its easier to have sign-up at registration so that they all end up even.

We have a core of maybe 6 of us that run the event, plus another 10 that do a significant amount of work everywhere else. Some places like timing, registration, and staging (for speed trials where it matters) are run by the same people every time. I think I need to recruit more regulars and teach them how to do some of these spots where we need some experience.

I've been trying to have club meetings with little success. They used to have one monthly, basically just hanging out at a local pub and shooting the bull for a couple hours, but it is an opportunity to talk about this kind of stuff. The club has gotten spread out over the last couple years with people moving out of town (but come back for events) so this has gotten harder to do.

The other thing is since I control the workers, they need to find me to check in and get an assignment. If I'm helping in timing, or preparing my car, or teaching someone the rules, they can't find me. Next time I'll set up my tent up front so there is one place to meet, and maybe have one worker assignment be to sit at that table and check people in, freeing me to take care of the other crap.

I think this has gotten kinda long. I'll condense my thoughts and come up with a list of things to try for next time.

Thanks for the input, and more is welcome.

Matt

johng

A lot of this has already been covered, but I'll add my $.02 to the pot as well. Our local Western Washington series (non-scca) typically will accomodate between 175-200 entries per event with 4 runs per driver. SCCA events about the same.

We do morning and afternoon run groups based on class. Stock, street tire and pax always run one half of the day, while Mod, Improved, and Prepared cars run the other half. Say the Stock classes run the morning group this event, they'll run afternoon the next event to balance it out.

Each run group is split into three sessions, again based on class. You drive one session, sit idle the next, and work the next. It may not always be in that order, but you get the idea. This way, you totally iliminate running out of order. When you're given your work assignment at registeration, you're told when you run and when you work, period. There's no question. Also having two grids helps. While the first session is running, people will already be in grid for the second session. When the second session is running, people in the third group will be getting their cars into grid.

Not to make this reply longer than it has to be, but the drivers meeting must also be manditory. You should make the rules very clear to new people, so there's no confusion. If they skip out on their work assignment, there should be some sort of penalty like no points, or double working the next event or something. The veterans shouldn't be skipping out and running out of order either. There's no excuse for them. They know better.

I don't understand your "time trial" or "speed trial" program, so I'll leave that alone.

$.02





[Modified by johng, 9:54 PM 8/15/2001]

Tail Happy

I like this thread...it's interesting to hear how other clubs run their events.

I agree with both points of your last sentence. I ran in an event put on by another local club...they had divided the day into 3 heats. At registration you signed up to work one of the heats, then you ran (2 or 3 runs depending on how many people there were) in the other two. I thought it was a neat way to evenly divide the run groups when you had no idea beforehand how many people were going to show up. But I didn't particularly like that format...you never had a heat off, you were always working or running. And the classes ran out of order.

You said you can't do pre-registering, but if there is any way to change that, I would recommend it highly ! We give a $5 discount to people who pre-register. It can be as simple as an email with your name/car #/class/etc...or on a website like ours. Usually the cutoff for pre-reg is Friday night before a Sunday event. This gives the worker chief a chance to get an idea how many people are going to show up, you can pre-assign worker assignments to save time, and you can try to divide up the run groups so classes run together. The only problem we've had with this, is occasionally someone will pre-register and then not show up to the event. But overall it works very well.

As far as beginners, we run all the novices together (regardless of class), usually in the last heat. This gives them a chance to ride along with more experienced drivers, watch the other cars running, and generally see how things work. All the novices' times are handicapped by class (i.e. they only compete with each other). The only downside is, you should also have a non-novice group running last heat as well...to try to ensure that there will be someone with experience at each worker station.

And finally, get a PA or megaphone or something. If you can pre-announce things, like "Workers for heat 2 need to report to timing for worker check-in" or "Joe Blow, you need to check in for your work assignment or you will be disqualified", then you will save time. Plus, there's nothing like berating a work-slacker over the loudspeaker to get them moving!

Whew...that's enough for now...

Chris
#55 ES
94 Integra LS
Texas Spokes Sports Car Club http://www.spokes.org

GSRMatt

Ok how bout a quick one...how much time does the average worker spend on course at your events? Do they work one long stint or two shorter ones?

Tail Happy

For a normal event with approx. 60-100 drivers, we usually work 1 heat out of 6 (3 morning/3 afternoon). Say about 1 hour to 1 hour 15 minutes. We usually get 4-5 runs at one of these.
Our last event we only had about 50 people, so we worked 2 heats, one in the morning, one in the afternoon. About the same time...1 hour each. 6 runs this time.

The time depends on various things of course, how many cones are getting nailed, how much we can overlap the cars on course, how evenly the groups were divided.

Chris

Pork Chop

In the San Francisco Region, we have 8 run groups (200+cars typically) and you only work once. The timeframe is between 45 minutes to an hour, but even that can vary depending on the run group. If you're fortunate enough to work the smaller groups (sometimes 10-20 cars), you can finish in 30 minutes. If you get stuck with the huge STS/STR/SM group (40-50 cars often), it might take over an hour.

The other local events I go to are up in Sacramento and they have 4 run groups (2 in the morning and 2 in the afternoon) with about 100 cars per event. Run groups there are much longer, often 1.5 to 2 hours, and again, you only work once. The main problem there is a handful of 3-driver cars that take too long to get ready.

If you're having trouble with absentee workers, it might be better to have one work assignment rather than 2. It's hard enough gathering everyone together for one worker checkoff, let alone 2.

Regarding the lack of a PA system, we have that problem at one of our sites as well. To get around it, we use FRS radios to communicate. They're cheap enough and common enough that a lot of people have them. The other thing we have is a big sign with the run group number, which we hang up on the side of the motorhome.

Usually, an astute observer will see a bunch of cars lined up on the 2nd grid and that should be a sign to him/her that "oh, I should be on that grid too!" More the reason to have run groups sorted by class.