AKADriver

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyone have any other suggestions for a RWD ITB car thats not a bmw? I know the volvo can run at the front, and I've even owned a few...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is the "AE85" '84-'87 Corolla SR-5 in ITB? It has the 8-valve carb version of the AE86 engine, and the AE86 suspension, so there's a bit more knowledge base out there and ready-made suspension parts.

1gCRX90

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Sounds like it's made a full recovery following the VIR 13 Hours last fall.



K</TD></TR></TABLE>

yep, that's the car..

krshultz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you think the CRX has enough torque to keep up with the Volvos? I also wonder how the Civic si will do in B. It seems like the Civic will be a decent car but I'm not sure it will have enough to beat some of the other cars in B.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Don't know yet. If nothing else it has all the trappings of a great battle. On one hand you've got light, nimble, well-handling, and good (relatively) aero with not a lot of power. On the other you have okay handling, impossibly bad aero, heavy, but a horse of a motor.

I just think that anytime SCCA moves a car down a class and adds what, 50lb? Watch out. I also think that while it's getting hard to find a good donor 1st-gen CRX, it's gotta be harder still to find a good donor Volvo 142.

A3 Golf like Kirk's driving also looks good to me.

I confess that I don't know a lot about old Volvos. How are the brakes? That's another variable for the CRX. Yes its light but those brakes are TINY.

A and B are to me the most interesting IT classes right now. Given the choice, I'd build (or better yet, pay to drive someone else's) EG ITA Civic Si.

1gCRX90

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you think the CRX has enough torque to keep up with the Volvos? I also wonder how the Civic si will do in B. It seems like the Civic will be a decent car but I'm not sure it will have enough to beat some of the other cars in B.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That's the gamble I'm taking.

With the right driver, and on the right track, the 1g CRX should be pretty competitive I think (I hope). I know there are some fast guys who had these cars in various regions when they were in ITA and they could hang pretty well, not too far off the faster 2nd gen CRX's. The advantage they're going to have over the Volvos, Audis and Accords is weight, and the subsequent beating that the heavy cars put on their tires towards then end of a race. I was told of one 1g CRX that, when it was in ITA, put down laps in a ECR enduro that would have been pretty near pole speeds for ITB. I think there are going to be places where the old CRX is competitive, there are going to places where it sucks eggs. We'll see...

krshultz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gCRX90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yep, that's the car..</TD></TR></TABLE>

I totally forgot about that. I had to go off to avoid centerpunching that car at Road Atlanta last month...

1gCRX90

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just think that anytime SCCA moves a car down a class and adds what, 50lb? Watch out. </TD></TR></TABLE>

weight went from 1980 lbs to 2100 lbs, so 120# is the difference. I've got a lot of lead to melt to get mine up to that weight....

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I also think that while it's getting hard to find a good donor 1st-gen CRX, it's gotta be harder still to find a good donor Volvo 142..</TD></TR></TABLE>

The old CRXs are out there. I just scored a complete car with no rust or body damage that I can tell, only a blown head gasket, for $300. The plastic fenders and header panel alone are worth that much. There's enough chit on the car that can be ebayed that I think I can get the purchase price back and then some.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A and B are to me the most interesting IT classes right now. Given the choice, I'd build (or better yet, pay to drive someone else's) EG ITA Civic Si.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agreed. A and B look like the hot classes right now. It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next couple seasons. My bet for the car with the most potential to be sick fast and surprise everybody once someone spends the dough to develop one 10/10ths? The 87 Prelude Si. Everything good about the Accord, but with better aero and gearing.

JoelG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gCRX90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Agreed. A and B look like the hot classes right now. </TD></TR></TABLE>

same here. I know Catch is keen on ITC but in the DC region ITC is on life support. ITS is just too expensive for me

.RJ

Jump on the honda bandwagon Joel, you know you want to

krshultz

I can't afford to run ITS either. Hell, I've got an ITS car sitting in my garage and I can't afford to run ITS. Not in the era of $60K BMWs making well over 200whp.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">same here. I know Catch is keen on ITC but in the DC region ITC is on life support. ITS is just too expensive for me</TD></TR></TABLE>

There's been a couple times for us where ITC was on life support as well. I'm pretty sure Catch raced himself at VIR in the sprint, and we had maybe two other C cars in our enduro. It's been very hit or miss.

I suspect man of the ITC drivers got sick of being around the wreck miatas. The first weekend they had the sprint with Prod and SSx, boom, 7 or 8 of them showed up. Coincidence?

The ding on ITB, for me at least, is that it's overwhelmingly populated with OLD cars. These Hondas we're talking about are 20 years old. The Volvos, what...30? 35? Hrm. That A3 [shudder]Volkswagen is starting to look okay[/shudder]...

Catch 22

I can't speak for other divisions, but in the southeast its starting to *look* like what was killing ITC was being grouped with SM for a couple of years.

Its still too early to really tell, but consider these recent ITC sprint entry numbers...

SIC 2004 Roebling (ITB and ITC) - 10
ARRC 2004 (ITB and ITC) - 17
Road Atlanta February (SM, ITB, ITC) - 2
VIR March (SM, ITB, ITC) - 3
Roebling April (Prod, ITB, ITC) - 9
CMP May (SM, ITB, ITC) - 3
Lowes June (SM, ITB, ITC) - 2
Road Atlanta July (Prod, ITB, ITC) - 8 (best race of the weekend too)

This year we are expecting over 20 cars at the ARRC for what again looks like the best race of the weekend on paper. Group is ITB/ITC again.

Now, I'm no scientist, but you don't have to be a jeenyus to see a pattern there. No Spec Miata seems to consistently produce 3x or more ITC entries on any given weekend at any given track. Having driven an ITC car in the SM group many times, I perfectly understand this result.
And 7 to 10 cars in class is a very good IT turnout on any given weekend. Certainly not a qualifier for life support.

It'll take another full year of the trend continuing for us to know for sure if ITC is back, but right now things look very good.

Knestis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by krshultz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I... That A3 [shudder]Volkswagen is starting to look okay[/shudder]...</TD></TR></TABLE>

nlm



K

JoelG

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Jump on the honda bandwagon Joel, you know you want to </TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh yeah. I should turn my Si into an ITS car. It'd be more competitive than what I have now. Except one thing: I can't afford to

I dunno about the ITC/SM thing. We dont have that problem here. SM has its own group and SSM is with ITS. And for the most part the SSMs seem to be respectin the bavarian tank Maybe its the 500lbs I have on them, or the 5mph bumpers right about their eye level, but for the most part they've left me alone

I think I'm hearing y'all say we need to get some newer cars in the slower classes. I mean, 30 year old volvos and bmws are cool, but they've got to be a PITA to maintain. What do people do for sheetmetal? I have a buddy that turned his 510 into a prod car because he couldn't get sheetmetal but he could get fibreglass from Japco.

Evan55

ITA 240SX ?

Payton Wilson's old car was for sale for $3k not too long ago

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Oh yeah. I should turn my Si into an ITS car. It'd be more competitive than what I have now. Except one thing: I can't afford to
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nah, get a nice ITA car

granracing

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> The ding on ITB, for me at least, is that it's overwhelmingly populated with OLD cars. These Hondas we're talking about are 20 years old. The Volvos, what...30? 35? Hrm. That A3 [shudder]Volkswagen is starting to look okay[/shudder]... </TD></TR></TABLE>

I guess it is just a matter of perspective. I like the fact that some of the fast cars are older and thus cheap to get. How cool is that? Take the price to get a nice A3 versus a nice Accord Lxi. There is a big difference. Regardless, it is really cool to have a bunch of different cars that could be up front. That said, the A3 looks very good on paper and from what I saw of one at NHIS.

Floyd, the problem with the lude is there are a very limited amount of off the shelf (legal) race parts for it. Development of the car has been (and continues to be) a real struggle. It seems that everything I try to get for the car has to be custom made. Oh, the A3 has more power and is lighter then the lude.

Crack Monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JoelG &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think I'm hearing y'all say we need to get some newer cars in the slower classes. I mean, 30 year old volvos and bmws are cool, but they've got to be a PITA to maintain. What do people do for sheetmetal? I have a buddy that turned his 510 into a prod car because he couldn't get sheetmetal but he could get fibreglass from Japco.</TD></TR></TABLE>

But what newer cars can you class down in ITB/ITC? Hyundias? Daewoos? I'd rather race a 30 year old swedish brick. It's just hard to find cars that are slow enough and have any appeal (at least to me, and I figure I'm fairly typical - not hung up on ITS bling, but don't want to race a total slug either).

The 92+ Civic CX was classified in ITC - same great chassis as the Si, just half the power. I almost talked myself into building one, but came to my senses and traded it for a Miata.

Has anybody requested that the Ford Focus be classified - would a base model be slow enough for ITB (don't recall it's specs)?

What about the Scion xA (in a few years, when it meets the 5 year rule)? Or is it considered a wagon (and not a hatchback)?

1gCRX90

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess it is just a matter of perspective. I like the fact that some of the fast cars are older and thus cheap to get. How cool is that? Take the price to get a nice A3 versus a nice Accord Lxi. There is a big difference. </TD></TR></TABLE>

My feelings exactly. '80's Hondas are still running around everywhere and can be had cheap in good physical and mechanical condition. All you have to do is look. You can have an ITC or ITB Honda and enough spares and donor cars to last a lifetime for a lot less than it would cost for the newer model cars (like an ITS Integra) before you even think about building a racecar out of it. And I really don't think the racing is any better in the faster classes than in the slower classes, just a lot more expensive. It's all relative.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by granracing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Floyd, the problem with the lude is there are a very limited amount of off the shelf (legal) race parts for it. Development of the car has been (and continues to be) a real struggle. It seems that everything I try to get for the car has to be custom made. Oh, the A3 has more power and is lighter then the lude. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh yeh, I know - that's why I mentioned the part about someone ponying up the $$$ to fully develop one - most of the parts will have to be custom made, sure. But it's just a matter of time. Speed = money.

as far as the A3 goes, the Lude has much better aero and better gearing. Pick your poison.

Catch 22

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gCRX90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

And I really don't think the racing is any better in the faster classes than in the slower classes</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gCRX90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

just a lot more expensive.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It is.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gCRX90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

It's all relative.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Like Uncle Jesse.

krshultz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Coach Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But what newer cars can you class down in ITB/ITC?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Here's a few that might be a letter to the comp board away. Cars I see as possible ITB/ITC candidates...

- Toyota Paseo, Echo, Tercel
- Hyundai Accent
- Nissan Sentra E and XE

I'm sure I'll think of others later. Personally I'm kind of drawn to the Toyotas, if they're not already classed. Someone has to be the first...

Catch 22

There are actually alot of potential newer cars out there, its just that the requests for classification haven't been made. Seems to be an issue of lack of interest and lack of aftermarket support.

There are also some base model proteges from the early 90s that look good for ITB, and I'd think that'd be an excellent car. Bulletproof motor and a great chassis. Somebody has to do the legwork and make the request.

RacerBowie

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There are actually alot of potential newer cars out there, its just that the requests for classification haven't been made. Seems to be an issue of lack of interest and lack of aftermarket support.

There are also some base model proteges from the early 90s that look good for ITB, and I'd think that'd be an excellent car. Bulletproof motor and a great chassis. Somebody has to do the legwork and make the request. </TD></TR></TABLE>

It would be nice if someone would do this. I have most definitely learned my lesson about being a trailblazer...never again!

If I were building an ITB car right now, I would be doing the A3 Golf thing. I figure most of what can be learned about that car has already been learned with all the other VWs over the years.... (Famous last words.)

slammed_93_hatch

I think that there is a whole 8 year or so span of honda's that would fit nicely into ITB/C.

ITB- Civic DX 92-00,civic LX (92-00 im not sure what years this model came in exactly but it has had the same power as the DX just more options then it).

ITC- Civic VX 92-95 (less then 100hp with massivly long gears, ie 120mph in 3rd with more revs to go), civic DX 96-00, and civic CX 96-00 (the cx and dx are the same cars but options like rear windsheild wiper comes standered on one). wooops forgot about the 92-95 civic CX (8valve motor, with a rather long gear set too)

The ITB/C classes in my region are dead, maybe 1 car a weekend, but from talking with a long time IT racer its been that way for several years.

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by slammed_93_hatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ITC- Civic VX 92-95 (less then 100hp with massivly long gears, ie 120mph in 3rd with more revs to go)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dear god.

http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index.php - with a 6.0:1 final drive, the tranny might be somewhat useful......

slammed_93_hatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Dear god.

http://www.fatboyraceworks.com/gears/index.php - with a 6.0:1 final drive, the tranny might be somewhat useful...... </TD></TR></TABLE>


lol, i took a ride in an VX hatch around thunder hill, 1st and 2nd are the only gears he used.

Comparisson at the end of the stright aways im at about 6,300rmp in 4th with an H4 civic SI with the 4.7FD

Hracer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1gCRX90 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The 87 Prelude Si. Everything good about the Accord, but with better aero and gearing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Indeed, a 0.69 5th gear compared to the prelude's 0.77 is a huge difference. This car is my top pick for ITB as well if I had to pick a B car to build, although there are several others that should make excellent cars.