Andrew 825SM

I'm running ground control with koni yellows 400F/500R with a 24mm suspension techinques front swaybar and rear 22mm ITR swaybar. During the entry of the turn, my car pushes and continues to do so throughout the turn. I'm wondering am I just going in too hot for the turn or is my car really pushing badly? With this kind of suspension setup, even if I enter in too hot into the turn, shouldn't my car be tail happy instead of plowing into the turn? What seems to be the problem?



Modified by Andrew 825SM at 7:31 PM 7/12/2003

tunes12

I'm no pro, but sounds like you should go in slower, come out faster.

.RJ

What he said. I learned how to stop chewing up my front tires the hard way. I corded a pair of 2/3 worn kumho's at an evo school learning my lesson.

Vitt1

Yesterday at an event a friend told me the same thing, that he was pushing and scrubbing every time at one particular turn. That wasn't happening with me. I tried to go into that turn faster and the same thing happened. Just pushed.

Then I asked a more experienced driver about that, and he told me that just about any car would push if you go into that turn too hot. I wish someone would've explained that to me a long time ago as well.

Steve91

Get rid of that front sway bar and put a stock one in.

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Steve91 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Get rid of that front sway bar and put a stock one in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Remove the front bar and run stock and maybe not one at all. Also check to see where your shock settings are. Front should be about mid range and rears should probably start about 1/2 turn from max. If the car oversteers, soften ther rear shocks. If you want more oversteer, stiffen the rears. That front bar is working against you and if your rear shocks are at a softer setting, they are not helping as well.

solo-x

or, before you do that, what is your alignment like? and what about tyre pressures? is this autocross or roadrace? are you hitting your bumpstops? is anything binding in the suspension?

most likely you are overdriving corner entry. _anything_ will understeer if driven poorly enough. don't change the car to band-aid driver error.

fwiw, i've driven my car with only the 24mm front swaybar attached. (yes, i do use a 24mm front swaybar, with 700lb front springs no less) the car didn't understeer as badly as most would like you to assume, both at lime rock for an HPDE and in autocross. also, fwiw, i've been seriously trying a "rear stiff" setup this year to get better mid-corner rotation. this has not proven to be the case, as increasing my rear spring rate seems to have only increased my corner entry rotation and has done nothing for my mid-corner rotation. my times have dropped, but only because the corner entry oversteer can be carried through into the mid-corner _sometimes_. the rest of the time i run such stupid rear tyre pressures that i've reduced the amount of rear tyre i use to a strip about 2" wide. the end result is a car that is easy to drive moderately fast, but hard as hell to drive _really_ fast. oh, and with all this corner entry oversteer i've found myself forced to dial out some of the rear toe-out, be a little less stupid with the tyre pressures, and reduce rear shock rebound. all these little things combine to make my mid-corner rotation even more non-existant, but at least the car doesn't almost spin if i look at the wheel cross-eyed.

this message has been brought to you by "nate" who would like to remind you that general rules generally fawk things up. suspension setup involves more then _just_ maximum grip. you have to drive the damn thing too ya know!

emwavey

Everyone has excellent advice!

Work on driver first, car second.

Driver: Are you going too deep into corner? ie waiting too long to brake? Even top driver do this on occasion. Are you mashing on the gas in a corner? Try not doing that. Looking ahead?
This is critism I'd give myself too, so don't take this the wrong way.

Car: Definitely ditch the front sway bar. Those work well on rear wheel driver car, but us front wheel drivers generally need to loosen up the front and stiffen the rear.
Alignment suggestion: slight toe out in the front and toe in at the rear.
What kind of tires are you running? And how long have you been, sounds like you're autocrossing?

To your question "... If I enter a turn too hot into the turn, shouldn't my car be tail happy instead of plowing..." (see above!)
This depends on the turn. If you're asking your tires to handle threshold braking, and then adding to that asking them to ALSO turn, then the answer is no! It doesn't matter how loose your car is in the rear.

Work on braking earlier and gasing on earlier... Drive smoothly and ask for an instructor to help. If it is your car and not you, an instructor driving your car will have much more information then can be conveyed here.

Remember work on the driver first, the car second. If you keep messing with the car, YOU, the most important factor in this whole driving thing, will never have the chance to learn.

Excellent question!!!

Andrew 825SM

I removed my front swaybar yesterday for the competition and the car felt dramatically better. I didnt know what to expect of my car and on my first run entering a four cone slalom, I was loosing my rear end quite a bit and had to struggle to get back into control. As I was tail happy, I accidently went off course and DNF'd that run. Removing the front swaybar was definately a great idea as my car now rotates much better.

And as for my driving, I do have a problem with braking too late, letting go of the brake too fast and jerking the wheel into the turn which probably doesn't help much with the problem of understeering. Quite a few instructors have told me to brake earlier so that I can get on the gas earlier. But this problem keeps haunting me over and over as I would practice braking earlier on one autox event. I would improve during the day, but the following autox event, everything I learned about braking early and looking ahead goes out the door and I find myself relearning it again. It frustrates me quite a bit. I keep telling myself before the run to look ahead and be smooth, but when the time comes, I find myself not looking far ahead enough and braking way too late.

00R101

So, you need to think in a different way.

Try this exercise - pretend that you want to come to a complete stop before turn in. Do it once or twice on each major braking turn. Then just slowly move your braking point up but leave your release point the same. make sure you are end your braking before turning the wheel. Review your run immediately afterward to see if you did what you set out to do.

Many people have habits from street driving that are hard o get rid of (like keeping a hand on the shifter or turning the wheel more and stepping on the gas) Changing habits is hard work!!

So practice your overbraking on the street too. Go slower into turns than you are used to. Practice doing all your braking in a straight line. You will be amazed at how hard it is to break the habit but you will be happy when you do.

Regards,
Alan

MattG

If your region allows get an instructor to ride along with you. Actually having someone else in the car to remind you to brake helps set it in your head. I am working on the same problem. I don't use the brake enough and over drive the car.

Dean Sapp from evolution helped me a lot by saying, "brake, brake, brake, brake, squeeze" (as in squeeze the gas) as I went around the course. It feels slower in speed because it is. However, its allows a better line and in turn results in better times.

Try this exercise - pretend that you want to come to a complete stop before turn in. Do it once or twice on each major braking turn. Then just slowly move your braking point up but leave your

This works. It may not give you great times but it will help build good habits, which result in good times. Try it!