Absolutely.

 

4doorH22, that's why I generally try to save my long explanations for the straights. The problem with that is that the student may have already forgotten exactly what happened 3 turns ago. If I do talk about an issue about a previous section and the student messes up in the current section I know they are listening to me rather than paying attention to their driving The only time I'd lecture thru a series of turns is if the student already had that section down.


[Modified by guy smiley, 3:48 PM 12/12/2001]

 

can I suggest one thing......... why not have the student talk themselves around the track one time. I believe this would give the instructor a really good idea as to what they are thinking through the whole run and can correct mistakes earlier. I have been talking myself around the track for a while now and point my mistakes out out-loud to myself and the instructor. Being able as a driver to recognize your own mistakes is pretty important.

 

When I first get into the car with my student, I say:
"We're going to do this my way. Why, because I'm the instructor and I don't want you to get hurt much less myself, mess up your car or hit/hurt any other obstacle on course. I speak from experience. When you move up to an advanced group, you can do whatever and try whatever you want. I just trust you'll use good judgement and learn something from me and other instructors while you were in beginner and intermediate groups. Any questions?". This always helps brake the ice.

Tell them what your hand signals mean - I usually have two, brake and gas. Have a communicator - talk to them in simple terms "brake", "gas", turning "right easy", etc. I always try different things to see which my student prefers. I talk them through the entire track (keep your eye on the apex markers...brake, brake brake, travel left, easy right....gas gas gas), hand signals (fist, direct left, direct right, full hand pointing to the floor). Tell them if the turn was correct/good or if was bad. If they do something wrong, ask them what they did wrong. When you talk, do so in a straight, not in turns. Don't say anything for a session and see if they retained anything. Most importantly, if they are doing things right, then tell them they did a good job. Don't sign them off unless you feel 100% comfortable driving a car beside them.

My $.02's worth.

 

How I handle "is the student looking for flags?"

Unless it's a red or a vigorous yellow, I pause a minute to see if the student reacts. If he doesn't, and I have to point it out, then he isn't looking up and we pull in to discuss that for a minute.

As far as talking. I keep it short. For instance, if a student keeps turning in early at the same turn, we'll talk about it after the session in detail. Then, on track, I'll just say "Later" each time that he/she misses it until they get it right. I've found that quite typically, the student will improve and if/when they miss the turn again... they'll say "later" before I do. This is a great sign as it means that they are recognizing their mistakes and understand them.
BTW - Turn 14 at CMP is the best late apex teaching turn around. It's slow and safe, and there's NO WAY to get through it with an early apex. I've found that once students get this turn, it translates to all of the turns.

 

I'm not an instructor....but maybe one day. Just have 7 or so events under my belt - 1st off on my last one.

I'm just going to offer some brief info from my first experience.

First event at CMP w/Sandlapper BMW. Drivers meeting - "4 wheels off and you come in to talk - 2nd time, you come in and we help you pack up and go home." That sets a tone real quick, esp for beginners. My instructor drove me at speed in her car. Then she drove me in my car at touring speed. Then I drove her in my car at touring speed. My first two sessions out and I'd hardly driven over 55 mph! I'm glad. My "at speed" session w/my instructor scared the **** out of me! "I'm supposed to drive anywhere near that speed into these turns!?" I was dialed back from the get-go and understood that being a dumbass was not a good idea. We had class after each session. My instructor talked to me lots and answered my consfused questions. We took it easy on the first time out, warming up and learning w/o even barreling down the straights....extra talk time. Some sessions, we made it a point to slow down to get a better line...which will lead to better speed/times later. End results - I had a great wkend and was easily the fastest car in D group, but the better complement was that my inst said I was a better student than her C student, turning better laps, etc. There were no sign offs in D group.

The whole graduated learning process was the key IMO. And an instructor who was there to instruct and not just get a free event was another key. Lots of communication. Before, during, afterwards. All beginners need it.

Hope that helps some.

Great topic!

 

I am a beginner, but was not at VIR... this time After reading and hearing about the offs, I was struck with a few things that I recalled from my recent first time...

Having been at JC in Sept, I got to see three different instructing styles and think each had its merit. My first was very hands on. We started with a history of my driving and car mods. I didn't let him take the first few laps, as requested in my car, but did let him keep a hand on the wheel the first lap. From there, he micro-managed my line and we worked up in speed and comfort. **I think the most important thing in that first session was to keep the speeds down** Don't recall who decided it, but we did not roar off the grid like many other cars in my group (which I also heard happened at VIR). The stress was that the line creates speed - not the car... as I learned the line, the car would also move faster. I knew that in my group, the cars ahead of me were also first timers w/ no autox experience (unlike me). By the end of the first lap, I could barely see them ahead, if at all! I also know that I didn't have an off or a fast lap that session (or all day)... the car ahead of me had two, IIRC, that weekend. For that, I credit my instructor for keeping me on the line and even slowing me in sections so I could get a better feel for it. I don't think "go slow" is emphasized enough for beginners - especially on the first session!

My second instructor was mostly hands off, but a bit negative too. He didn't like my line in the last turn (1st instructer used pinch, 2nd liked constant arc). I honestly felt that my 2nd instructor could have done more to talk with me about the different lines - but it was more (too) negative, I felt. Otherwise, I was in a lead/follow with a considerably slower car, so I really never felt I could let it out. As a result, I worked again on the line at about 6/10ths. May have been the best thing for me b/c it forced me into another slowed session instead of starting to test limits.

Third instructor was hands off but very constructive and positive. By this point, I had a feel for the line and had begun to increase my speeds. For the first time, I was arriving at the track-out points w/o steering toward them. This instructer helped me with excellent suggestions on HOW to apply throttle, where to brake less to improve turn in, and why one line or another might be better in the last turn.

All things considered, I think I got a great mix of instructors, which allowed a nice progression in my driving awareness. I needed someone to keep a tight rein in the first session. I also needed someone to keep my speeds down, concentration up, and to communicate what was expected and required. Second session, I enjoyed being able to sort out the line a bit further - but wish that a) lead and follow weren't happening w/ a car w/ 1/2 the power mine has [mine is stock] and b) the instructor would have been more proactive. Third session was perfect timing. Instructor understood the handling of my car very well (as he drives a RWD 944) and also understood where I was being timid and what I could do to use the whole track and increase my speeds w/o going on the ragged edge.

I guess from this, I drew a few lessons for the first time (tracking or just that track) driver:
1. Having (or being) a hardass instructor in the first session is a good thing. You are an authority figure as a teacher. Don't be afraid to act like one.
2. Find out experience and mods to car to help your learning/instruction process. I'd be afraid of the beginner w/ well prepped car w/ super tires... they can get into a lot more trouble a lot quicker than the guy that has nothing but super brakes. Also, I appreciated that my instructors knew my car had very low limits (b/c it is stock) - I thought that would help them instruct.
3. Don't be upset/afraid to hear/say "slower, but on line this time." I may be a race track, but it's not a race - and both student and teacher should be okay w/ this.
4. Be able to understand/explain why a line is wrong or why an apex is sooo late - "just because" doesn't work with 5 year olds or drivers.
5. Positive reinforcement - "Okay, just like last time, but wait just 5 feet more..." (even if last time sucked b/c it was too early, I feel I don't have to reinvent the wheel (or the line), just wait 5 more feet).
6. Like Morgan said, me talking about the turn before or as I did it helped me and my instructor know what I really knew. IMHO, making a student audibilize his mistake before you do allows you to know that he is not a stone incapable of learning, buy maybe just can't pucker hard enough.
7. Know the car! I felt my first instructor didn't know much about RWD. Even though it didn't matter at the speeds we were going, it made ME uncomfortable (I had moved from FWD just 1 month before and really needed some tips on driving it at the limits). Also, while I hadn't mentioned anything about it, my last instructor told me I should get a front STB (which arrived the next day, after taking 28 days to get to my house!) - which proved that he understood the feel of the car as much or more than I. That made me feel that he knew exactly what was going on.
8. Hype the event down. I went to the event to learn how to drive on a track. I was afraid. I wasn't racing anyone, directly (but we compared times later on). Seeing this board, I see the advanced group talking about racing and about going 110+ through the esses, etc. I understand that that is their skill level and they have every right to talk about it... But, I think it is important to impart to the novices out there that they are NOT Corey or Warren or any of the others who have been to numerous tracks, including this one. They have NOT been given provision or other licenses. And, most important, they do NOT have to go that fast to be cool and should NOT try! I think that if the instructor sense that the student is thinking about these things, he should reinforce that it is a driving school and will not be on Speedvision.
Don't know if any of these helped to anything but take up space, but I tried

 

Hi Hipposleek -

You made some excellent points! Thanks for sharing. I especially agree with the comments to "not forget you're an authority figure". I have had to assert myself from time to time. I usually remind them *why* I'm going to be a cop for a while, and make them understand it's for their own safety.

One thing I would disagree with, however, is the FWD versus RWD thing. The technique and line is the same on track at a beginner and even intermediate level. The only difference in my mind at that level is how to correct for mistakes in the two, with the importance of catching a RWD car under power oversteer, and the importance of matting the gas in FWD from trailing throttle oversteer.

I switched from FWD autocrossing to RWD as well, but I have only driven RWD on track, so what do I know!

 

While I am a newer instructor (~3 years instructing) with Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs, we have what I feel is a good setup for our W2W schools.

The first session, we pile into streetcars (with mufflers) for a conga line for a 15 minute session with the instructor driving. This familiarizes the student with the track, braking points, turnin points, etc. The session is at slower speeds to not overwhelm the students.

The next session, we are again in a conga line with an instructor leading a group of 5-10 cars and students driving their cars and their instructor as a passenger. This is again at slower speeds.

We then turn up the speeds as students become more comfortable but do not concentrate on speed for our schools instead, working on learning the line and brake points, turnin points, etc.

As for communicating with students, my voice is not loud enought to be heard above an open exhaust for long so I use some talk but rely on hand signals to point the student to where he/she should brake, turn, etc. This seems to work pretty well. We then have a session outside the car after each incar session to go over things that went really well or not. The motorcycle intercom is a good idea if it fits all helmets without modifications.

With our school, the bottom line on passing a student is whether we feel comfortable racing against the student the next day in addition to how they control the car.

Hope it helps.
Devin

 

As a student, I'm going to buy a motorcycle communicator just in case my next instructor doesn't have one. Those things are an absolute must.

 

First off - Thanks. I completely agree - I didn't mean that the line or technique changed, nor that I was, at that point, driving near the level where power on oversteer might raise its ugly head. But power on oversteer was my concern early on - and especially later in the sessions when my tires started to feel greasy. I was trying to prepare and was proactively looking for any advice I could get. Later, I felt the other instructors were better able to address this concern with me - it just made ME more comfortable that they knew, understood, and were giving good advice. A part of this was no doubt my inexperience w/ the platform - but still - if a student has a concern about something pretty fundamental and safety related (like power on OS), I think the instructor should be able to handle it.

 

Me too. Sounds like a groupbuy in the making.

 

Very astute observations Mr. Sleek.