This thread is related to "Offs: ..." that was started by Diane.

After this pasy weekend at VIR, in which I had too many offs with my students, I am trying to refine (overhaul?) my approach to instructing. Particularly new drivers. I'm new to instructing, so I'm looking for comments, or whatever.

In the past (two schools as an instructor), I let students drive their cars and then made comments, suggestions, etc as events occured. An example of this would be: let the student negotiate the uphill esses at VIR, then when we arrive at the back straight, discuss line, reactions, speed, etc. Then apply what I've said on the following lap. I wouldn't call it a laid-back approach, but definetely not proactive in the scream and grab steering wheel type of way.

Anyways, at the 1st event I instructed, my students were intermediate with 6+ events under their belt or very knowledgable beginners (with lots of autocross, 1 or 2 lapping days). So, the approach worked pretty well. They knew enough to turn clean laps and much of my input simply verified and resolved issues they knew existed, but didn't know how best to correct. At VIR, this approach worked well with my intermediate student.

But, it didn't work so well with my beginner, who was a first timer with little other experience. I know he had his head in the right place, had done is research, prepared, and was responsive to my instruction. However, by not being more proactive, I let the student get into some ugly situations that he was unprepared to deal with (mostly, getting in too hot and missing a turn-in or apex).

So, what I'm looking for is comments regarding:
1. How to communicate in-car with newer students. Are you constantly talking them around the track? Do you verbalize (or signal) every input before/as it happens?

2. How detailed are your instructions? Sometimes I feel like I try more than a new driver can absorb at one time.

2. Do you ever make steering corrections for them (I've had instructors do this with my permission in advance)?

3. Do you use any hand signals? How well does that work? I assume the student is watching the track, so never really tried signals.

Any otehr comments, suggestions, etc are appreciated.

Al Hastings

 

Student perspective....

Were you using a motorcycle earphone/mic by any chance?

This was the first time I had an instructor with one and it helped tremendously. Times though I wish I could concentrate on driving instead of listening to him. Not his fault.. should have said be quiet for a sec and let my brain get used to things.

Other thing was he spoke to me during every session and was tallking about every corner. He had short phrases that I remembered the next pass around. Helped out a lot. Figure if you are going to talk short is better from a student's point of view.

He also grabbed the wheel once b/c I wasn't getting turn 1. He apologized since I wasn't doing anything unsafe.. just frustrated and wanted to show me the right way. Not a firm believer in having someone else's hands on the wheel when you aren't screwing up(read: being unsafe).

With this kind of instruction I was pretty fast and safe at the same time... Proof is he signed me off to drive solo for Sunday, which I unfortunately couldn't make.

Very proud of that simple fact b/c he(Norman I think his name was) was pretty hard on me throughout the day.

 

hey brian how was that OFF TRACK EXCURSION IN THE ESSES??? heheheh

 

First of all, if you don't have one of those little communicators, get one. It makes talking back and forth MUCH easier and makes you a more efficient instructor.

Unfortunately, with some students you have to talk continuously or they go off. I have had 1 or 2 of these. Like it or not, with these guys you have to CONSTANTLY chatter to them about where to brake, where to release the brake, where the apex is, when to get on the gas, how much gas to give, etc. etc. etc. This makes for a very long session...

1. With a beginner, you have to talk them around the track. They have no clue. With a good beginner, they'll get a workable line within a session or two. This frees you up to basically critique and refine their basic line for the rest of the weekend, work on braking points, and other finer details.

2. Varies with the student. I can tell you this, if they are having trouble with a section and you just can't seem to figure out how to tell them how to do it, take them for a ride. I did this with my intermediate on Sunday and it cured all his line selection issues.

2 (again). Rarely but sometimes, with their permission, and at a greatly reduced speed. Perhaps even on the cooldown lap.

3. Only if the car is so loud a communicator is useless.

 

Al, you forgot that one of your other students at the JC Speedtrial event, a young fellow in a yellow Type-R, was a complete track virgin, no autox, no drag racing, lapping days, nothing. You drove his car for a few laps, and then made sure he took it easy, getting on his *** pretty vocally when he screwed up.

He wanted to throttle-steer the car through the corners, so it's probably a good thing that you reprimanded him relatively sharply and held him in check for his first run. He was very appreciative as you may recall. Any idea who I'm talking about?

 

Haha, oh yeah. How scared could I have been if I forgot already?

 

George you're too funny. Was it really that fast?

Al, you reined in my aggressive tendencies so well that I spun on the out lap of the next session. lol

 

Pretty much what Matt said.
With a total novice you have to walk that fine line between talking them through every corner and talking SOOOO much that you distract them. It ain't easy.

I usually gauge progress by how much I'm talking. If I'm still talking in every corner at the end of the day on Saturday, we obviously haven't progressed much. The goal is to be riding quietly, with just positive enforcement, by the end of the weekend (sure, there's more to critique, but remember that you have a beginner and adjust to that, he/she isn't going to be perfect). It'll make things more enjoyable for both of you and really build the student's confidence.
And don't forget the debrief after each session. Ask them if you are overloading them with info and/or what you can do to help them out more.

Much harder than the Novice is the guy who thinks he knows everything but is a friggin menace. Hopefully you'll never get one of these.

As for hand signals, Karl and Renee (my girlfriend) had a very successful weekend using just hand signals (can't hear anything but the motor in my car). He can provide some excellent insight on that.

 

Am I "one of these"?

 

Wow Al, I didn't know you were that much of an instructor virgin.

Same case with me, I've done about 20 track days at 8 tracks and consider myself advanced (can drive well and can adjust for conditions - passes, offs, etc. as said by instructors, and have cornerworked more than that. I know all about driving, teaching that to someone else is another matter.

At Summit, Jon recruited me to help w/ the instructor shortage. I took the CM approach and just let the students drive, watching them drive the line and talking to them with feedback critique when necessary. My students demonstrated that they had basic knowledge of the track and driving, I just corrected as needed. The virgin case would be different. Should I yak all the time? Do you respond better being led? Would you like me to drive two laps first?

The main objective for beginners should be to understand the line, traffic, basic handling, etc. Intermediates can then work on building up speed, finessing earlier learned techniques, etc. It should not be expected that a novice after a few schools is going to be a track expert; I still can learn too.

Our saying goes, "Novices are learning, Advanced knows enough, and Intermediates know just enough to get into trouble with it."


[Modified by 4WDrift, 10:37 PM 12/11/2001]

 

This is a very long post I've just cooked up, sorry all

First things first...VIR is a very challenging track to instruct at. There's so much going on that by the time you tell a student something, they're already in, or leaving, that part of the the track you were talking about. At CMP you can damn near walk a student through a hot lap verbally...not so at VIR.

So, to your specific questions.

It depends on the student and the track, but overall I tend to be pretty talkative. If my student starts to "get it," I'll shut up. But I always try to tell them, I'm going to shut up for a while and just watch you. This is important - silence can be interpreted, IMO, as negative feedback. Which is something I like to avoid.

Many students seem to respond well to repetitive input. I had one guy on the north course who was timid in the crossover. Unchecked, this could have resulted in a big lift and sent us into Danville. So all the way up the hill I chanted "in the gas, in the gas, in the gas." It worked.

Not very. Let's say the student comes out of turn 5 with too much gas too early, causing the front end to wash out. I'll just say "easy on the gas" and the next time we get to the corner, I'll remind him. "Remember to be easy on the gas coming out of here." That seems to work.

For things like turn in points and track out, I use hand signals and/or simple stuff like "be track right here" or "get a little more track left." Come time to turn, I try to just say "turn." People won't all respond to "turn" immediately, so you have to get a feel for the time gap and adjust.

For more complex stuff I wait until the straight...or sometimes just wait until they come in. For example, recently one of my students picked up a tendency to use multiple braking inputs. So on the long straight heading towards 1, I used that opportunity to describe the problem, and the solution. The problem went away.

If it's more complex than your student can process while out on track, make a note to yourself to go over this after the checkered flag comes out. Or you can save it for any debriefing you might do after pitting in.

Not usually. If I do, I do so during the warmup or cooldown laps, and only with advance warning. The speeds are slow there and it will be less unsettling for the student.

Usually yes, but in combination with verbal communication. My basic ones:

Clenched fist = brake (while I say "brakes")
Point to either side = turn (while I say "turn")
Point straight ahead = apply gas (while I say "add gas")
Hitchiker's thumb rearward, or point at rearview mirror = there's traffic behind you

A bit of an aside on hand signals. In November, I instructed Renee in RoadRacer's Integra. Even my intercom was useless in that thing. So Friday night, we sat down and went over some hand signals. It ended up being quite effective - you can't overload someone, or stumble on your words, when just using your hands. Quite an education for me. So...in addition to the ones I mentioned above, here's what we came up with...

1. Mimmick a steering input, followed by pushing away with both hands: turn in later
2. Mimmick a steering input, followed by both hands doing a "come over here" motion: turn in earlier
3. Clenched fist (brake) with either of the above: brake later/earlier
4. Slap dashboard with palm of my hand: floor it

Sure - lots of them

1. If you don't have an intercom, get one. It makes your life easier, and students love them.

2. Think of your past instructors, both the good ones and the bad ones. Do the things you liked, and avoid those that you didn't

3. Remember that you're there for them. If you want to be good at this, you have to enjoy it - it can't be a thing you do to get free track time. Check out https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=60827 for more on this.

4. Personally I sign people off late in the weekend. And I do so this way. I tell them that going out solo can be a vaulable experience. But a signoff doesn't mean I won't ride in the car with them again. If for whatever reason (discomfort with going solo, the want for more instruction, whatever) they want me in the car, I get in. With a couple exceptions, I have always ended up in their cars post-signoff.

5. At the start of the weekend, ask them this. "What are your goals for the weekend?" If they don't know...give them something. It might be smoothness. It might be getting the line right.

6. Similarly...if you get the chance, ask them, "what did we accomplish? And what's next for you?" or something similar. This lets them think through what they improved, and can be a bit of a confidence boost. "Yeah, I guess I improved my (blah)."

7. Ask them if they're having a good time. They need to be - at the end of the day, that's why they came.

8. POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT!!! Don't tell them that they suck. I recently had a student who beat himself up a bit more than I'm used to. I fully expect that some previous instructor told him negative things. That impacts a student's confidence in themselves in a big way.

9. Learn from those more experienced than you. I've picked up lots of tools from people like Oscar, Ron Spencer, David Stone, Dan Unkefer, and countless others.

10. Follow up with them at the next event they're at. If they're signed off and you're available, ride with them.

11. Always give priority for ride-alongs to your students.

12. Build a relationship of trust. Make sure they know that you're not in the car to have them do something stupid - you're in the car too, after all. You don't want to hit something any more than they do.

Jeez that got really long. I hope it helps, and I hope you're still awake.

--Karl, who is going to go watch some video of VIR now

 

Do you have a preferred session to sign off?

My intermediate student had stated running solo as a goal for the weekend. This was his 5th event over two years, but never solo, so we thought it a reasonable goal. He was a bit rusty Saturday, but by Sunday morning he was quite consistent and comfortable. However, previous personal experience makes me worry whenever the 3rd session rolls around - seems to be when everybody forgets what they've learned and gets silly for 20 minutes. So, I figured I'd let him Solo the 2nd, ride along the 3rd and make sure he kept his head on straight, and then let him solo the final session if 2 and 3 went ok. Does this sound reasonable?

This is actually a good one. I kinda subconsciously assume everybody is learning to drive in prepartation to go racing, which was my goal when I started driving.

Keep the comments coming...


[Modified by Crack Monkey, 4:57 PM 12/10/2001]

 

CM, just a couple of obervations on these two from a student driver, based on my experience.

Instructions - Keep them in short sentences or phrases. always use the same word or phrase for the same thing, e.g. always "throttle", instead of "throttle" one time, "gas" the next, and "punch it" the third time. The first time out on a new track I seem to respond well to a stream of these short commands, so turn 1 at VIR would be something like "brake, brake, brake, apex, tighter, throttle, full throttle, open the wheel, drift out". After I get this down, maybe more detailed instruction would be appropriate, Try braking at the 3 this time", "turn in 4 feet later", " be smoother here". I'm a little deaf in noisy situations, so the motorcycle communicators are really an asset to me.

Hand signals - The first couple of sessions, the student won't see them. I felt like I was looking down a pipe. Now I can benefit from them. Remember to hold your hands a far forward as possible, to get in my field of vision. I've benefited both from the instructor pointing at where I should be, and from him turning an imaginary wheel. This was really a help in getting my timing down for the climbing esses.

One other thing. A lot of folks don't know how well their car can stop, and don't hit the brakes as hard as they could. It might be worthwhile, if it could be done safely, to just have them brake as hard as possible earlier in the straight, just so they can get a feel for their threshhold without having to worry about going off in the corner.

 

Typically somewhere after the first session of the second day. Even if the chief instructor doesn't require it (which is unusual lately), I like to ride with my students in the morning of day 2.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

Don't assume anything. Some are there to be "better drivers." Some are there to improve technique for autocross. Others are there to get ready for racing...and still others are there to help their other competition efforts (like autocross - that's how I got into this whole mess).

Always ask them why they came. If they don't know the answer, I bet you can *give them* an answer that will make sure they have a hell of a great weekend.

 

To the top.

Come on people, step up and answer Al's questions...there's a lot of us who have experience with this stuff.

 

Having spent the last 20 minutes reading the "Offs" post, it sounds like there's room for improvement. I've had my share of offs and I've listened several different instructors' point of view. One of the best instructors I've had made me drive the track slowly at about 2/10'ths for the first few laps to get a better "view" of the turn and it's length, and to know what's coming up when the turn is completed.

This in itself is a great teaching tool for someone new to the track, and new to track driving. It allows plenty of time to talk about the track and the line. If your student has never seen the track before, have them ride shotgun for 2-3 laps while you drive 3/10'ths and talk about where you want the car to be entering and exiting the corners. After the student has taken a few slow laps and seems to have the line figured out, have them speed things up and build on that.

This method worked best for me, and when I'm eventually in a position to teach, I'll incorporate this method. The "sit back_watch_and correct later" method doesn't seem to work very well. I believe in lots of initial communication that will hopefully taper off to silence when you're done with your student at the end of the day.



[Modified by johng, 8:03 PM 12/11/2001]

 

A communicator is a must for me. There's no way I can make myself heard thru a closed face helmet at speed, even in a street car.

Same here. With a first timer I'm pretty much in constant talk mode. I know it's easy to overload a novice, so what I tell them is pretty repetetive. Brake, off the brake, turn in, unwind, squeeze the gas.

Once they start to get it I quiet down and just give them encouragement (nice line, good apex, etc) or a thumbs up. If they make a mistake, I'll often ask them if they know what they did wrong rather than just tell them early, late, too hot, whatever.

With an intermediate student that wants to solo, I'll try to go a whole session without saying anything. If that works, it's a good sign that they are ready

Everyone gets one of these sooner or later. A stop in the pit lane for a talk is often effective in getting their attention.

Question: how do you check to see if your students are looking for flags?

 

OK, just a quickie reply, then I gotta get back to writing a 20 page report for work on why the components we're about to buy are going to cause all our products to be busted...

I am a new instructor. I have had 3 students. I think they have all been excellent. None of my students have gone off. I've been on track, what, about 20 times now, and I have never been off. I'm quick, but not as fast as many guys on here.

So, take what I say with a grain of salt. Maybe I'm full of it because I have never had a bad student. But maybe I have kept the students on the track.

OK - why does one go off? Two reasons as I see it - (1) inconsistency. I'm not saying consistency is necessarily a goal. It's just that -- if you didn't go off last time, and you do this time, you're doing something different. (2) Driving on the ragged edge. Where if the wind changes direction or if your passeger farts next time, in that spot on the track, you're going off.

I have had students do both. Here's how I dealt with it: Encouraged, no, _demanded_ the opposite behavior. If he/she's on the ragged edge, say "dont you EVER think about doing that faster/earlier/etc. Put the fear of god into them. Point to the tire walls. Tell about a friend who flipped there. Whatever it takes.

If he/she is inconsistent, give them consistency as a goal. Give a "come to Jesus" talk about how consistency is absolutely required before probing the limit. A friend of ours wrecked in turn 3 at CMP because he turned in 2 feet too early. At the speed he had been taking that corner all weekend, that line happened to end in the grass instead of the track-out curbing.

At the first 2 events I ever did, I remember Ron talking in classroom (on Sunday) about trying different lines. I thought he was crazy. All I wanted to do was drive a couple laps in a row with my car exactly where I wanted it, when I wanted it. It didn't matter if it was the optimal line or not. 100% unerring consistency was all I cared about when I started out. Maybe that commitment has helped keep me on track. Experimentation is not for beginners. I have tried to instill that philosophy on my students so far, and it seems to be working.

My beginner student last weekend had a really hard time with turn 4. When it was obvious he was going to be inconsistent there, I took it another step. We discussed it and agreed that it was a problem for him, and I told him I was going to hold my fist up when I wanted him to start braking hard, then I release it and point when I want him to turn in. I put it up in his field of vision and coupled this with "wait, wait, more brakes, wait, Now! Turn!". I also started reminding him before the turn, "here's the turn you have a problem with. Don't forget to brake enough." I found minimal hand signals in their most troubling corners does work.

But, like I said, I have been lucky so far. Students have shown me in the first session which ones they will be dangerous in, and I spend the rest of the weekend (and in debriefs) talking them through it.

I have also had positive comments on "Don't get greedy!" warnings. It's worked so far!

PS - anyone know when the next instructor clinic will be? I won't consider myself a qualified instructor until I go through one...

 

From my perspective, a total novice without so much as a VISIT to a track prior to last weekend, the most important learning experience was going out with my instructor in his car after my first session. I carefully studied his line, where he braked and how hard, where he turned and how sharp, how he accelerated out of a turn, etc. Now he was driving a 2500 lb RWD Corvette and i'm driving a 1600 lb FWD civic but the lessons are somewhat universal.

An even more illuminating lesson might have been having him drive MY car around the track with me as a passenger. That would have been comparing apples to apples. As it was though the ride in his car was extremely helpfull.

One thing I can strongly suggest would be a brief quistionaire or 'get to know you' session between the student and instructor. That would allow them to evaluate just how novice the student is. In my case that was quite novice indeed. My first lap resulted in spins in turn 4 and Oak Tree and it scared the crap out of me. It also taught me a lot about what not to do.

Now my experience may be a little unusual because the instructor i was supposd to have didnt show up so i played catch as catch can with instructors all day Saturday. This gave me several diferent perspectives and i found that very uesful. On Sunday i got the same instructor i had my first session on Saturday (the one who was with me for the two offs). on the first few laps Sunday morning he commented on how much improvement i had made but also pointed out what i still needed to work on. I relied on him heavily to help me think my way through the course and remember where to brake, where to turn, what to aim for, keep my eyes up, etc.

After the first two sessions on Sunday he cleared me to drive the track solo which helped me really gain confidence. It was very gratifying to drive a fast, accurate line without an instructors input. I actually found myself laughing with glee down the back striaght after really nailing the turns and shifts in Oak tree (there is nothing like really feeling the VTEC kick hard in third gear as you head into the straight)

In retrospect i dont think that the weekend could have been much better. The one thing i might suggest for beginers would be a quick accademic lesson about the physics of driving (such as weight transfer and the traction circle) prior to ever hitting the track.

Mike

 

Most of the time, I just watch their reactions. If a Blue was thrown, did the student check the mirrors, give a signal, etc. If a yellow, did the student slow down and look around.

I did ask my intermediate student to call out the flags as he saw them. Since he wanted to go solo, I wanted to be sure he was recognizing flags soon enough (also forces him to look ahead as far as possible).

 

A good thing to do is to tell the student to take it easy for the first session or as much as needed to know where the track goes. This crucial and I imagine at VIR this would require at least a couple of sessions. If is very easy to know which way the next turn goes, but knowing exactly how sharp and long it is, is a different story. Doing familiarization laps in the first session would eliminate many of the first lap offs since these are cause simply by not knowing how sharp a turn is. Taking a student for a ride is another great idea to show the proper line and driving habits. But driving 10/10ths with a student can also potentially cause problems. They will be really hit hard by how much different things feel at this speed and after getting over the initial amazement they might try to drive like that in their next session and can get into serious trouble. So I would think either drive at a casual/fast pace with students around the track to show the proper lines/techniques, or make sure to go with them in their next session after giving them some hot laps in order to keep things under control and get back to where you left off instructing in the previous session. I've seen the negative results of students trying to mimic instructors a couple of times so far.

This is a great and interesting thread to read!

 

AL-

To bad you missed the NASA instrcutor's clinic at JC in Sept. Many of your questions would have been answered.

Second. there are ALOT of excellent comments made here and I think the overall summation should be:

Overall - Everything works at one point or another with one student or another.....

1. Take time the 1st time out with your student. Find out where his/her head is at.

2. NOVICE students with no experience and even those with some experience probably need a few laps to get used to what driving a track is all about - using the whole track instead of staying "on one side". Therefore 1 - 2/10ths is probably about the right speed.

3. Remember what type of car YOU drive vs what you are teaching. FWD and RWD are different. Depending on your level of driving experience, check with your CHief Instructor for any insights . I don't want my instructor driving my car..... If I am going to mess it up I will do it - not my instructor.

If you don't know how to drive an opposite type car -talk to someone who does. Even though there are the basics - which is what you are supposed to be teaching, there are variances.

4. Listen to what the student is learning in classroom - sit in on it. Then you will be on track with the Chief Instructor. Especially good to stay on the same page so to speak.

5. ALWAYS spend time after the session with your student to find out where his/her head is at - feedback to them, get feedback for yourself. If in doubt discuss with the Chief Instructor to get more insight.

6. SOLO - Solo should NOT be for the weekend and should NOT be done after 1-2 session - generally speaking. It should be used to let the student PRACTICE the lessons learned so far. You the instructor should be watching from a corner or 2 to see what your student is doing while soloing. Your student should know that you will be back to CONTINUE his education - you are not supposed to be a policeman but a teacher. Students confident in your ability will try what you suggest.

7. Negative feedback always gets negative results. Negative results brings nervousness. Nervousness brings worry. Worry bring doubt and second thoughts. Doubt and second thoughts bring offs. And the cycle begins again.

8. Have the student analyze what they did - good and bad. This imprints on the brain much more than you lecturing. AND they learn the analyze tool. For the next time.

As a student gets better, you can encourage him/her to try a "faster" or "deeper" line. IF there is hesitancy, then BACK OFF. You are not trying to make a race car driver the first time out. You want him hooked - enticed to continue with such impatience that he/she gives up weekends just to "do it again"....


By the way. for those that are interested, NASA will be having more instructor clinics this year. Interested?

Email me at
nasaregistration@team.camaroz28.com

Elyse

 

Hi Elyse, while I agree that these two items would be greatly beneficial, it has been my (limited) experience with NASA that there is no time for that. The instructors usually have two students, plus their own track time. That has not left them enough time to ever give me any post-session feedback. I understand what the trade-off is: more track time, or more instruction time... And it surely is a hard choice to make - so far, NASA has opted for more tack time, and I'm not complaining. With the schedules as crammed as they are, it may be possible to get a little feedback at the end of the day, provided the instructor (or the student) is not busy packing for their long drive home, but that's about it.
Anyway, I love getting on the track, and can't wait to get back on one! Keep up the great work.
thanks
Sebastien.

 

I just wanted to reinforce something that Ron brought up in the classroom quite a bit... much of the time the student is not hearing or not comprehending what the instructor is saying. For example the instructor could be discussing the line the student just took through the Uphill Esses while the student is trying to navigate Oaktree, or pointing out the apexes through the Rollercoaster while the student is driving through the Rollercoaster, and even though the student is saying "yeah" or "uh-huh," the student hasn't really even heard a word that was said. This is either because the student just can't hear through the helmet and car noise, or in the cases where communicators are used, the student is just too puckered-up or just trying to concentrate on the track and can't follow what the instructor is saying at all. I just wanted to make sure instructors are aware of this. The time when instruction is best understood is on the straits, just before a turn, or before or after a session, but never during or immediately after a turn.

 

Oh, having said that, is sure doest hurt for the instructor to keep on talking... just remember the student may not actually be hearing...