high end suspension?
01-21-2007, 03:09 PM
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Re: (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Caveat Emptor! Your buddy better go out and buy a shock dyno or have a very good friend with one so he can fine tune his dampers to what he thinks he may want.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Uhh, I thought the whole point of 4 way adjustable is so that you have 95+% of the conditions covered and you don't need to to re valve.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On the other hand, he can just go out and buy a set of Koni 2812's or 2822's and not have to worry about tearing apart the shock to keep changing them. He will get all the benefit from adjust ability and precise damping curves and have the ability to change shim stacks to modify the damping curves with these Konis.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So you are saying Koni 2812/2822 are as good as the high end stuff but much easier to work with?! I highly doubt that.
Caveat Emptor! Your buddy better go out and buy a shock dyno or have a very good friend with one so he can fine tune his dampers to what he thinks he may want.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Uhh, I thought the whole point of 4 way adjustable is so that you have 95+% of the conditions covered and you don't need to to re valve.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On the other hand, he can just go out and buy a set of Koni 2812's or 2822's and not have to worry about tearing apart the shock to keep changing them. He will get all the benefit from adjust ability and precise damping curves and have the ability to change shim stacks to modify the damping curves with these Konis.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So you are saying Koni 2812/2822 are as good as the high end stuff but much easier to work with?! I highly doubt that.
01-21-2007, 03:19 PM
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Uhh, I thought the whole point of 4 way adjustable is so that you have 95+% of the conditions covered and you don't need to to re valve.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That depends on the range of adjustment, and the damping curves on the shock.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So you are saying Koni 2812/2822 are as good as the high end stuff but much easier to work with?! I highly doubt that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why, because they're not moton or JRZ with a big *** pimpy remote reservoir?
The 2812 (steel body) or 2812 (alum body) are damn good hardware, and not cheap either.
The koni stuff just works, and offers a huge range of adjustability.
I think you are getting too caught up in a brand label and technowankery. If you get something that you cant get set up properly or dialed in, you will ultimately be slower. Ease of use and setup will allow you to get more comfortable in the car and start turning out faster lap times. Especially if you do not have a ton of racetrack time and dont have a Data AQ system with shock pos sensors and a suspension engineer to interpret it and tune all.
Uhh, I thought the whole point of 4 way adjustable is so that you have 95+% of the conditions covered and you don't need to to re valve.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That depends on the range of adjustment, and the damping curves on the shock.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So you are saying Koni 2812/2822 are as good as the high end stuff but much easier to work with?! I highly doubt that.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Why, because they're not moton or JRZ with a big *** pimpy remote reservoir?
The 2812 (steel body) or 2812 (alum body) are damn good hardware, and not cheap either.
The koni stuff just works, and offers a huge range of adjustability.
I think you are getting too caught up in a brand label and technowankery. If you get something that you cant get set up properly or dialed in, you will ultimately be slower. Ease of use and setup will allow you to get more comfortable in the car and start turning out faster lap times. Especially if you do not have a ton of racetrack time and dont have a Data AQ system with shock pos sensors and a suspension engineer to interpret it and tune all.
01-21-2007, 03:44 PM
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Re: (.RJ)
If Koni's work that well, why aren't more teams on it? Motons are 2006 WC GT and Touring champs. Was any team on Koni's ? What was the top finish?
Besides, if nobody here has used Moton/JRZ, perhaps you should not comment on weather it is easy to setup or not. Reading Moton's FAQ, it does not seem overly complicated.
I don't suppose anybody has used Penske neither... I guess I will call the companies and have them try to explain to us the benefits of 4 way over 2 way.
Besides, if nobody here has used Moton/JRZ, perhaps you should not comment on weather it is easy to setup or not. Reading Moton's FAQ, it does not seem overly complicated.
I don't suppose anybody has used Penske neither... I guess I will call the companies and have them try to explain to us the benefits of 4 way over 2 way.
01-21-2007, 03:53 PM
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If Koni's work that well, why aren't more teams on it? Motons are 2006 WC GT and Touring champs. Was any team on Koni's ? What was the top finish?</TD></TR></TABLE>
It all depends on what the teams, crew cheifs and suspension guys have experience with. If they have a lot of Moton experience, most of the paddock is on motons, and there is moton service on site... well then thats the easy choice.
There are many IRL, Cart and even some F1 teams using Koni's high end dampers.
It all depends on what the teams, crew cheifs and suspension guys have experience with. If they have a lot of Moton experience, most of the paddock is on motons, and there is moton service on site... well then thats the easy choice.
There are many IRL, Cart and even some F1 teams using Koni's high end dampers.
01-21-2007, 04:10 PM
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Re: (.RJ)
Koni 28xx isn't their high end series though, is it? I don't doubt Koni have excellent stuff on the high end as well. But for you to make statement that says Koni 28xx is as good as JRZ/Moton's just seems... biased and wrong.
I really didn't come here to ask for 2nd hand opinions. As a matter of fact, I made it pretty clear: "does anybody here have experience with JRZ or Moton's personally? i've been browsing Moton's web site and looks like they have more wins than others. a buddy of mine is looking for high end suspension for his civic project car (money no object) so he's looking for t<u>he best</u>. are there other ones he should consider?
specifically the higher end stuff have low speed compression/rebound adjustments. what is your experience on the effect of that? "
Modified by tsukuba07 at 5:20 PM 1/21/2007
I really didn't come here to ask for 2nd hand opinions. As a matter of fact, I made it pretty clear: "does anybody here have experience with JRZ or Moton's personally? i've been browsing Moton's web site and looks like they have more wins than others. a buddy of mine is looking for high end suspension for his civic project car (money no object) so he's looking for t<u>he best</u>. are there other ones he should consider?
specifically the higher end stuff have low speed compression/rebound adjustments. what is your experience on the effect of that? "
Modified by tsukuba07 at 5:20 PM 1/21/2007
01-21-2007, 04:42 PM
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But for you to make statement that says Koni 28xx is as good as JRZ/Moton's just seems... biased and wrong.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I didnt say that. Go back and re-read my post more carefully.
What do you define as better, anyways? Just curious what your benchmark for a better product is. Race wins are great, like i said, support is key.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I didnt say that. Go back and re-read my post more carefully.
What do you define as better, anyways? Just curious what your benchmark for a better product is. Race wins are great, like i said, support is key.
01-21-2007, 05:51 PM
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Re: (.RJ)
You should also consider dampers made by Dynamic Suspensions (owned my Multimatic who sponsor and set up the Panoz cars run by Stephane Bourdais in his off season). They are used on many, many race winning cars. These guys have multi-post rigs as do Ohlins. Also if you go with Ohlins TT44 dampers, you can simulate every dyno curve you might want using their software. It is very easy to use, but it won't tell you which curve to use, rather which curve you will get with a given set of parts. No need to dyno them except to verify they are working correctly, and the software will tell you what change will be made to the damping curve from changing pistons and shims. Dynamic Suspensions, Ohlins, Penske and some others have very knowledgeable people to set up dampers. I would suggest you call them and ask them what they can do for you and what models they can offer to fit your application. Benoit Theedge who used to race an NSX in Grand Am had some custom Dynamic Suspensions dampers made up for his car, and he got other stuff from Realtime Racing as well.
One of the issues with Motons (used on very many race winning cars) is that they have to be re-built regularly, and this was confirmed to me by Nathan of Realtime Racing and by Kensai Racing guys who run some RSX's in Grand Am. They either use the track support guys at the events or send them in for re-valving/re-building which gets expensive. You might want to consider this aspect when buying. I have not recently seen many race cars (ALMS, World Challenge, etc) running Konis, but that might just be marketing. Koni has been in the business for a long time, but they don't seem as popular as they used to be in the top level race cars. Last time I walked through an ALMS paddock, I didn't see a single Koni damper, but I saw a ton of Ohlins and Dynamic Suspension ones. They are now a sponsor for the The Grand-Am KONI Challenge Series (formerly known as Grand-Am Cup), so you will see a ton more Konis there with their full support.
But I would really recommend that you call the reps and talk about the car and its setup before you buy if you are going to spend the type of money ($6000) that a set of Motons costs. That will give you a good idea of the support you are likely to get.
One of the issues with Motons (used on very many race winning cars) is that they have to be re-built regularly, and this was confirmed to me by Nathan of Realtime Racing and by Kensai Racing guys who run some RSX's in Grand Am. They either use the track support guys at the events or send them in for re-valving/re-building which gets expensive. You might want to consider this aspect when buying. I have not recently seen many race cars (ALMS, World Challenge, etc) running Konis, but that might just be marketing. Koni has been in the business for a long time, but they don't seem as popular as they used to be in the top level race cars. Last time I walked through an ALMS paddock, I didn't see a single Koni damper, but I saw a ton of Ohlins and Dynamic Suspension ones. They are now a sponsor for the The Grand-Am KONI Challenge Series (formerly known as Grand-Am Cup), so you will see a ton more Konis there with their full support.
But I would really recommend that you call the reps and talk about the car and its setup before you buy if you are going to spend the type of money ($6000) that a set of Motons costs. That will give you a good idea of the support you are likely to get.
01-21-2007, 06:13 PM
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Re: (descartesfool)
BINGO! Dynamic Suspension was the other big name that I was thinking about. Thanks for bringing it up. I did plan to call up the big ones to see what they have to say, but I was also looking for end user feedback... but I guess I just need to goto WC paddock and talk to the team users.
01-21-2007, 06:59 PM
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Re: (tsukuba07)
I think you need to take a step back and read what people are trying to tell you.
Getting a very high end shock and setting it up properly are 2 different things entirely. Quite a few people have tried very nicely to explain that, but you just don't seem to understand it!
If you go out and spend 6k on motons, or 12k on penske's and you don't have the support, knowledge, staff, Data Aq, and competent test drivers to set them up, those super pimpy high end shocks wont be as good as a set of off the shelf Koni's.
It not as simple as you obviously think. You can't just go buy a very high end set of shocks, put them on the car, put your "driver" in the car, turn a few ****, and have them be ready to go! The shocks will not be optimized, and you wont be getting the full potential out of them! You need a LOT more effort than that!!!
Getting a very high end shock and setting it up properly are 2 different things entirely. Quite a few people have tried very nicely to explain that, but you just don't seem to understand it!
If you go out and spend 6k on motons, or 12k on penske's and you don't have the support, knowledge, staff, Data Aq, and competent test drivers to set them up, those super pimpy high end shocks wont be as good as a set of off the shelf Koni's.
It not as simple as you obviously think. You can't just go buy a very high end set of shocks, put them on the car, put your "driver" in the car, turn a few ****, and have them be ready to go! The shocks will not be optimized, and you wont be getting the full potential out of them! You need a LOT more effort than that!!!
01-21-2007, 07:13 PM
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Re: (descartesfool)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by descartesfool »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">These guys have multi-post rigs as do Ohlins. Also if you go with Ohlins TT44 dampers, you can simulate every dyno curve you might want using their software. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It would require so much work to use a TT44 shock on a Honda Civic. Its a piggyback style shock not hose mounted and the shocks normal mounts are eyes with bearings which would be useless on a Honda. Ohlins USA in Hendersonville does have a 7 Poster Shake Rig, very costly to use, but can be very beneficial to someone setting up their shocks before even hitting the track.
It would require so much work to use a TT44 shock on a Honda Civic. Its a piggyback style shock not hose mounted and the shocks normal mounts are eyes with bearings which would be useless on a Honda. Ohlins USA in Hendersonville does have a 7 Poster Shake Rig, very costly to use, but can be very beneficial to someone setting up their shocks before even hitting the track.
01-21-2007, 07:27 PM
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Re: (prkiller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If you go out and spend 6k on motons, or 12k on penske's and you don't have the support, knowledge, staff, Data Aq, and competent test drivers to set them up, those super pimpy high end shocks wont be as good as a set of off the shelf Koni's.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
^^^that is a major concern
if you think you have the infrastructure in place to competently test these shocks, then go for the moton$...
If you go out and spend 6k on motons, or 12k on penske's and you don't have the support, knowledge, staff, Data Aq, and competent test drivers to set them up, those super pimpy high end shocks wont be as good as a set of off the shelf Koni's.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
^^^that is a major concern
if you think you have the infrastructure in place to competently test these shocks, then go for the moton$...
01-21-2007, 09:29 PM
#38
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Uhh, I thought the whole point of 4 way adjustable is so that you have 95+% of the conditions covered and you don't need to to re valve.
So you are saying Koni 2812/2822 are as good as the high end stuff but much easier to work with?! I highly doubt that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The whole point of 4-way adjustable dampers is to independently adjust high and low speed compression and rebound. The range of adjustments depends on how the damper was setup to begin with. Shim stacks, needle tapers, or spring loaded blow off valves are user adjustable assuming with the correct tools. To get the most out of four way dampers, it is imperative that the tuner has quite a bit of experience and the test driver is very capable of giving the race engineer valid information.
My point about Koni was not to suggest that Koni was "better than" the rest, but that Koni makes some of the best dampers available, especially the 28XX series. With the Konis, your friend should be able to get up to speed very quickly instead of fumbling around with four-ways. But in theory, if you need the very best without reference to cost, complexity, personnel requirements, ect., then why use anything other than Penske with their huge selection of pistons and other tuning features. Why you're at it, make sure to send a Penske engineer to Japan to help you set them up.
While I mentioned Penske, I didn't say they were the best, only that they can be made to perform for just about any circumstance you're likely to find. I'm not sure there is any "best", since best can be different things to different people. And I'm not going to guess what damper features you're going to deem as the most important. So keep reading the websites and talking to all the pro teams and make sure to ask the right questions if you know what the right questions to ask are in the first place.
Modified by Johnny Mac at 11:03 PM 1/21/2007
Modified by Johnny Mac at 11:04 PM 1/21/2007
Uhh, I thought the whole point of 4 way adjustable is so that you have 95+% of the conditions covered and you don't need to to re valve.
So you are saying Koni 2812/2822 are as good as the high end stuff but much easier to work with?! I highly doubt that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The whole point of 4-way adjustable dampers is to independently adjust high and low speed compression and rebound. The range of adjustments depends on how the damper was setup to begin with. Shim stacks, needle tapers, or spring loaded blow off valves are user adjustable assuming with the correct tools. To get the most out of four way dampers, it is imperative that the tuner has quite a bit of experience and the test driver is very capable of giving the race engineer valid information.
My point about Koni was not to suggest that Koni was "better than" the rest, but that Koni makes some of the best dampers available, especially the 28XX series. With the Konis, your friend should be able to get up to speed very quickly instead of fumbling around with four-ways. But in theory, if you need the very best without reference to cost, complexity, personnel requirements, ect., then why use anything other than Penske with their huge selection of pistons and other tuning features. Why you're at it, make sure to send a Penske engineer to Japan to help you set them up.
While I mentioned Penske, I didn't say they were the best, only that they can be made to perform for just about any circumstance you're likely to find. I'm not sure there is any "best", since best can be different things to different people. And I'm not going to guess what damper features you're going to deem as the most important. So keep reading the websites and talking to all the pro teams and make sure to ask the right questions if you know what the right questions to ask are in the first place.
Modified by Johnny Mac at 11:03 PM 1/21/2007
Modified by Johnny Mac at 11:04 PM 1/21/2007
01-21-2007, 10:03 PM
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Re: (Johnny Mac)
I was directing those remarks at .rj. I appreciate your input. But you are right, maybe I should have... instead of asking bench racers here... lol.
01-21-2007, 10:06 PM
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Re: (prkiller)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think you need to take a step back and read what people are trying to tell you.
Getting a very high end shock and setting it up properly are 2 different things entirely. Quite a few people have tried very nicely to explain that, but you just don't seem to understand it!
If you go out and spend 6k on motons, or 12k on penske's and you don't have the support, knowledge, staff, Data Aq, and competent test drivers to set them up, those super pimpy high end shocks wont be as good as a set of off the shelf Koni's.
It not as simple as you obviously think. You can't just go buy a very high end set of shocks, put them on the car, put your "driver" in the car, turn a few ****, and have them be ready to go! The shocks will not be optimized, and you wont be getting the full potential out of them! You need a LOT more effort than that!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is a learning process. If 4 way adjustable have no values, why are all the pro teams using it? We are studying about the high end shocks and trying to learn the PROS of using them. You guys are pushing the CONS and trying to tell us not to. Almost completely different perspective. Anyway, it seems like no one has hands on with the high end stuff here so... I guess I will go direct to the manufacturers and the teams to get real info.
Getting a very high end shock and setting it up properly are 2 different things entirely. Quite a few people have tried very nicely to explain that, but you just don't seem to understand it!
If you go out and spend 6k on motons, or 12k on penske's and you don't have the support, knowledge, staff, Data Aq, and competent test drivers to set them up, those super pimpy high end shocks wont be as good as a set of off the shelf Koni's.
It not as simple as you obviously think. You can't just go buy a very high end set of shocks, put them on the car, put your "driver" in the car, turn a few ****, and have them be ready to go! The shocks will not be optimized, and you wont be getting the full potential out of them! You need a LOT more effort than that!!!</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is a learning process. If 4 way adjustable have no values, why are all the pro teams using it? We are studying about the high end shocks and trying to learn the PROS of using them. You guys are pushing the CONS and trying to tell us not to. Almost completely different perspective. Anyway, it seems like no one has hands on with the high end stuff here so... I guess I will go direct to the manufacturers and the teams to get real info.
01-21-2007, 10:10 PM
#41
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was directing those remarks at .rj. I appreciate your input. But you are right, maybe I should have... instead of asking bench racers here... lol.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think anyone who posted was a bench racer. Each post I've seen are from some of the fastest drivers in Honda Challenge. Some of these guys include Andrie Hartanto who is the H1 National Champ and Jeremy Croiset (Prkiller) is very fast and finished fourth at Nats. So far, what I've read is great advice to you if you're really open minded to listen to some of the experiences that real racers can relate to you.
I don't think anyone who posted was a bench racer. Each post I've seen are from some of the fastest drivers in Honda Challenge. Some of these guys include Andrie Hartanto who is the H1 National Champ and Jeremy Croiset (Prkiller) is very fast and finished fourth at Nats. So far, what I've read is great advice to you if you're really open minded to listen to some of the experiences that real racers can relate to you.
01-21-2007, 10:12 PM
#42
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is a learning process. If 4 way adjustable have no values, why are all the pro teams using it? We are studying about the high end shocks and trying to learn the PROS of using them. You guys are pushing the CONS and trying to tell us not to. Almost completely different perspective. Anyway, it seems like no one has hands on with the high end stuff here so... I guess I will go direct to the manufacturers and the teams to get real info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're not listening! No one said that four ways have no value, of course they do if you know what you're doing. But you must know what you're doing at a very high level if your going to benefit from them. Geez.
This is a learning process. If 4 way adjustable have no values, why are all the pro teams using it? We are studying about the high end shocks and trying to learn the PROS of using them. You guys are pushing the CONS and trying to tell us not to. Almost completely different perspective. Anyway, it seems like no one has hands on with the high end stuff here so... I guess I will go direct to the manufacturers and the teams to get real info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
You're not listening! No one said that four ways have no value, of course they do if you know what you're doing. But you must know what you're doing at a very high level if your going to benefit from them. Geez.
01-21-2007, 10:14 PM
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Re: (Johnny Mac)
there you go, now that's some good inputs there.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The range of adjustments depends on how the damper was setup to begin with. Shim stacks, needle tapers, or spring loaded blow off valves are user adjustable assuming with the correct tools. </TD></TR></TABLE>
so how is this base setup established? i'm guess you supply the manufacturer with some car setup info, and general track data, perhaps track layout/corner speeds, and based on shock company's experience they will make a base recommendation?
i do not understand why the high end shocks have to be rebuild often. it is not wear and tear right? but rather, to gain the max performance?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The range of adjustments depends on how the damper was setup to begin with. Shim stacks, needle tapers, or spring loaded blow off valves are user adjustable assuming with the correct tools. </TD></TR></TABLE>
so how is this base setup established? i'm guess you supply the manufacturer with some car setup info, and general track data, perhaps track layout/corner speeds, and based on shock company's experience they will make a base recommendation?
i do not understand why the high end shocks have to be rebuild often. it is not wear and tear right? but rather, to gain the max performance?
01-21-2007, 10:23 PM
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I was directing those remarks at .rj. I appreciate your input. But you are right, maybe I should have... instead of asking bench racers here... lol.</TD></TR></TABLE>
there are more then a few people in this thread how have dealt with the shocks mentioned. Some have driven, some have adjusted, and some have made the call on what to adjust.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is a learning process. If 4 way adjustable have no values, why are all the pro teams using it? We are studying about the high end shocks and trying to learn the PROS of using them. You guys are pushing the CONS and trying to tell us not to. Almost completely different perspective. Anyway, it seems like no one has hands on with the high end stuff here so... I guess I will go direct to the manufacturers and the teams to get real info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again you don't get it. If you hand some one a graphing calculator, but they have only a basic understanding of math. It isn't going to be very use full to them. But if you hand a graphing calculator to someone who works with them day in and out, they will be able to take full use of it.
Same thing applies with these dampers, they are ALL very power full, but in the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, you are more then likely going to end up slow and out a **** load of money.
You think we are pushing the cons, but we are really just pushing REAL LIFE.
Again i have "turned the ****" and some of these shocks, and listened to people who know more then me talk about why they are doing what they are doing. Then they tell me to go make those changes.
others have driven on these dampers.
If you looking for a cut and dry answer you ARE not going to find it. Race results are a good indicator, but it is not the only thing to look at.
As RJ. mentioned track side support is important. Lex from Moton is at almost all of the GARRA races. There to answer any question, help with setup, and other track side support. Last year i had never seen an official person from koni out there, nor from penske. I did see a some one from JRZ out more then once.
This isn't the end all be all answer to why race teams run what they run put it is part of it.
And FYI the Aston Martin DB9r runs koni's. The tri-point mazda's did run them too but this past year they have tried a ton of different shocks, and AFAIK are still looking.
Something i learned is once you think you know enough to improve your setup out on the track, you really haven't. You have just opened the door to go slower in a whole lot of different ways.
there are more then a few people in this thread how have dealt with the shocks mentioned. Some have driven, some have adjusted, and some have made the call on what to adjust.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This is a learning process. If 4 way adjustable have no values, why are all the pro teams using it? We are studying about the high end shocks and trying to learn the PROS of using them. You guys are pushing the CONS and trying to tell us not to. Almost completely different perspective. Anyway, it seems like no one has hands on with the high end stuff here so... I guess I will go direct to the manufacturers and the teams to get real info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Again you don't get it. If you hand some one a graphing calculator, but they have only a basic understanding of math. It isn't going to be very use full to them. But if you hand a graphing calculator to someone who works with them day in and out, they will be able to take full use of it.
Same thing applies with these dampers, they are ALL very power full, but in the hands of people who don't know what they are doing, you are more then likely going to end up slow and out a **** load of money.
You think we are pushing the cons, but we are really just pushing REAL LIFE.
Again i have "turned the ****" and some of these shocks, and listened to people who know more then me talk about why they are doing what they are doing. Then they tell me to go make those changes.
others have driven on these dampers.
If you looking for a cut and dry answer you ARE not going to find it. Race results are a good indicator, but it is not the only thing to look at.
As RJ. mentioned track side support is important. Lex from Moton is at almost all of the GARRA races. There to answer any question, help with setup, and other track side support. Last year i had never seen an official person from koni out there, nor from penske. I did see a some one from JRZ out more then once.
This isn't the end all be all answer to why race teams run what they run put it is part of it.
And FYI the Aston Martin DB9r runs koni's. The tri-point mazda's did run them too but this past year they have tried a ton of different shocks, and AFAIK are still looking.
Something i learned is once you think you know enough to improve your setup out on the track, you really haven't. You have just opened the door to go slower in a whole lot of different ways.
01-21-2007, 10:29 PM
#46
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No wonder you guys don't go faster if you are thinking so negatively... lol. Thanks, but no thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't know what you are talking about, my lap times droped all last year. As did the car i worked on.
Don't know what you are talking about, my lap times droped all last year. As did the car i worked on.
01-21-2007, 11:01 PM
#47
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No wonder you guys don't go faster if you are thinking so negatively... lol. Thanks, but no thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe I'm just in a bad mood tonight, but I'll let er rip anyway!
Your just a jackass plain and simple!
And I'll make the assumption that your also a little snot nose kid "dreaming" of having those "oh so pimpy" motons or what not!
Fact is, quite a few people tried to offer valuable info to you and you simply choose to ignore it and quote it as "negative" talk.
Let me spell it out for you because your to retarded to understand what everyone is telling you!
You don't have the knowledge or skills to properly setup a 4 way adjustable shock. It's fairly obvious from your posts that you don't. You lack a fundamental understanding of road racing and shocks, and are headed down an expensive road of wasted money! Have fun with it!
Why do the "real race teams" use motons and JRZ's and Penskes? Because they have shock dyno's in the race rig, engineers at the track who's sole purpose is to interpret shock and suspension data, and real race drivers that can explain what the car is doing and what needs to be fixed. They spend A LOT more than the 6k-12k buy in price of the shocks to get them working properly!
Have fun with your super pimpy high end shocks. You might be slow with them, but those shocks will sure look good on the car as everyone passes you....
Maybe I'm just in a bad mood tonight, but I'll let er rip anyway!
Your just a jackass plain and simple!
And I'll make the assumption that your also a little snot nose kid "dreaming" of having those "oh so pimpy" motons or what not!
Fact is, quite a few people tried to offer valuable info to you and you simply choose to ignore it and quote it as "negative" talk.
Let me spell it out for you because your to retarded to understand what everyone is telling you!
You don't have the knowledge or skills to properly setup a 4 way adjustable shock. It's fairly obvious from your posts that you don't. You lack a fundamental understanding of road racing and shocks, and are headed down an expensive road of wasted money! Have fun with it!
Why do the "real race teams" use motons and JRZ's and Penskes? Because they have shock dyno's in the race rig, engineers at the track who's sole purpose is to interpret shock and suspension data, and real race drivers that can explain what the car is doing and what needs to be fixed. They spend A LOT more than the 6k-12k buy in price of the shocks to get them working properly!
Have fun with your super pimpy high end shocks. You might be slow with them, but those shocks will sure look good on the car as everyone passes you....
01-21-2007, 11:06 PM
#48
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No wonder you guys don't go faster if you are thinking so negatively... lol. Thanks, but no thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>
One has to wonder what kind of response you expected when you started this thread?
with your reaction to some very good advice factored in, this is what i presume you wanted:
"omG!!! MOtONz r TeH ShiTTTT!"
"u r so dope for running jrzzzz/penske/ohlins"
but instead, you got what people, who have experience with this stuff (and good luck finding other places so rife w/ the same wealth of knowledge, and if you did, they'd all say the same things) really think about running a 4-way adjustable remote reservoir dampers. this is the real world of 10,000 dollar suspensions--you must have the data and the book/real world knowledge to tackle these things. even setting up 2812's isn't an easy task w/o the right approach to tuning the suspension. hell, figuring out what rebound settings to use on a single adjustable koni yellow might take a whole day of testing if you don't know what you're doing.
so, you want to spend many many thousands on a suspension no matter what? go ahead and spend it, no one's stopping you.
One has to wonder what kind of response you expected when you started this thread?
with your reaction to some very good advice factored in, this is what i presume you wanted:
"omG!!! MOtONz r TeH ShiTTTT!"
"u r so dope for running jrzzzz/penske/ohlins"
but instead, you got what people, who have experience with this stuff (and good luck finding other places so rife w/ the same wealth of knowledge, and if you did, they'd all say the same things) really think about running a 4-way adjustable remote reservoir dampers. this is the real world of 10,000 dollar suspensions--you must have the data and the book/real world knowledge to tackle these things. even setting up 2812's isn't an easy task w/o the right approach to tuning the suspension. hell, figuring out what rebound settings to use on a single adjustable koni yellow might take a whole day of testing if you don't know what you're doing.
so, you want to spend many many thousands on a suspension no matter what? go ahead and spend it, no one's stopping you.
01-21-2007, 11:17 PM
#49
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Re: (tsukuba07)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tsukuba07 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No wonder you guys don't go faster if you are thinking so negatively... lol. Thanks, but no thanks.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How would you know how fast anyone here can drive? You're assuming nobody's is fast because you don't like the answers you're receiving. And if you were really experienced in racing, you would have known what to expect when asking questions about dampers. But you don't, you've a new comer to a sport many of us have enjoyed for years as drivers, engineers, and crew. But since you don't like the answers about dampers, we couldn't possibly know what the hell is going on, right? Well, sorry to inform you, but dampers can be a simple device or a really barn-burning pain in the *** if you don't know what you're doing.
The answer to what shock to run is to run the shock that you as a driver can most benefit from. For some, that shock might be an Koni Sport damper and for others it might be the super trick rotary dampers used in F1. The damper is used to control the unsprung and sprung masses of the car in a controlled manner. If the track is really rough and is littered with high-frequency bumps, then a nice four way shock has the features that a competent team can best utilize. If the track is very smooth and the incidence of bumps is rare, then why would I care about modifying high speed damping since my damper would only be operating in low speed mode?
The fact is, I would benefit from a damper that would reduce lap times by performing is such a way that the best compromise of shock settings happened to maximize grip where I wanted it, and reduced grip on one or more corners(like the rear of a front drive car) of the car where I wanted it. So what damper will do that for me? Does it have to be an Ohlins? A Penske? A Moton?
There are plenty of articles about transient dynamics on the internet if you are so eager to understand (assuming you have the necessary background in Newtonian physics) what is necessary to best utilize a damper for an intended use. So read up and then you'll realize that the advice you were given was appropriate to the questions that you asked. If you don't realize it, then sorry for you inconvenience of having to read through this thread.
How would you know how fast anyone here can drive? You're assuming nobody's is fast because you don't like the answers you're receiving. And if you were really experienced in racing, you would have known what to expect when asking questions about dampers. But you don't, you've a new comer to a sport many of us have enjoyed for years as drivers, engineers, and crew. But since you don't like the answers about dampers, we couldn't possibly know what the hell is going on, right? Well, sorry to inform you, but dampers can be a simple device or a really barn-burning pain in the *** if you don't know what you're doing.
The answer to what shock to run is to run the shock that you as a driver can most benefit from. For some, that shock might be an Koni Sport damper and for others it might be the super trick rotary dampers used in F1. The damper is used to control the unsprung and sprung masses of the car in a controlled manner. If the track is really rough and is littered with high-frequency bumps, then a nice four way shock has the features that a competent team can best utilize. If the track is very smooth and the incidence of bumps is rare, then why would I care about modifying high speed damping since my damper would only be operating in low speed mode?
The fact is, I would benefit from a damper that would reduce lap times by performing is such a way that the best compromise of shock settings happened to maximize grip where I wanted it, and reduced grip on one or more corners(like the rear of a front drive car) of the car where I wanted it. So what damper will do that for me? Does it have to be an Ohlins? A Penske? A Moton?
There are plenty of articles about transient dynamics on the internet if you are so eager to understand (assuming you have the necessary background in Newtonian physics) what is necessary to best utilize a damper for an intended use. So read up and then you'll realize that the advice you were given was appropriate to the questions that you asked. If you don't realize it, then sorry for you inconvenience of having to read through this thread.
01-22-2007, 12:48 AM
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Re: (Johnny Mac)
It doesn't get easier then this:
If you have to post this thread, you DEFINITELY are not capable of setting up a system in which your inquiring.
What 1989 civic is so special that you are thinking about running 6K-12K suspension on it anyway? If money is no object, why are you dabbling with an 89 civic in the first place?
If you have to post this thread, you DEFINITELY are not capable of setting up a system in which your inquiring.
What 1989 civic is so special that you are thinking about running 6K-12K suspension on it anyway? If money is no object, why are you dabbling with an 89 civic in the first place?