DMS Shocks are very cool
12-13-2005, 01:58 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (.RJ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
</TD></TR></TABLE>
My new desktop image!!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
My new desktop image!!!
12-13-2005, 02:20 PM
#53
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (mikeski38)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikeski38 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW, I picked up two seconds with DMS as well. Thunderhill previous best time 2:07.4 on race-valved koni yellows and 850f, 1050r springs, new personal best time 2:05.3, on the DMS suspension package.</TD></TR></TABLE>
H4 track record at t-hill = 2:04.469. still nearly a second off the pace.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itaintegra52 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We ran our Integra all year on re-valved Konis, with the DMS shocks we were a lot faster, over 2 seconds faster then the track record that we set at the track with the konis. The DMS gave us the ability to do things that we were not able to do with the Konis, made TOYO tires feel like Hoosiers. I think that some of that is due to the progressive rate springs that DMS sells.</TD></TR></TABLE>
looking at the honda challenge website, i don't see your lap record in there anywhere. i don't see you holding a lap record at any track. what was the lap time you set, and on what track? only lap record i see of someone defending the DMS dampers is for Chris Lock in H5 at infineon over 2 yrs ago.
so are these lap records you guys were talking about HC lap records? for the first year HC made it to the west coast? or am i missing something. does anyone currently holding a lap record honestly think they can spend a couple thousand on their car and find more then a couple tenths??
nate - probably beaten this horse enough
H4 track record at t-hill = 2:04.469. still nearly a second off the pace.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by itaintegra52 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">We ran our Integra all year on re-valved Konis, with the DMS shocks we were a lot faster, over 2 seconds faster then the track record that we set at the track with the konis. The DMS gave us the ability to do things that we were not able to do with the Konis, made TOYO tires feel like Hoosiers. I think that some of that is due to the progressive rate springs that DMS sells.</TD></TR></TABLE>
looking at the honda challenge website, i don't see your lap record in there anywhere. i don't see you holding a lap record at any track. what was the lap time you set, and on what track? only lap record i see of someone defending the DMS dampers is for Chris Lock in H5 at infineon over 2 yrs ago.
so are these lap records you guys were talking about HC lap records? for the first year HC made it to the west coast? or am i missing something. does anyone currently holding a lap record honestly think they can spend a couple thousand on their car and find more then a couple tenths??
nate - probably beaten this horse enough
12-13-2005, 02:27 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
nate - probably beaten this horse enough</TD></TR></TABLE>
Even a dead horse probably still has a couple tenths left in it.
Scott, who would Really Like to lose 2 seconds when he runs on Motons next year...lately I only seem to be able to add 2 seconds...which if you think about it like I do is gonna be a 4 second improvement...
nate - probably beaten this horse enough</TD></TR></TABLE>
Even a dead horse probably still has a couple tenths left in it.
Scott, who would Really Like to lose 2 seconds when he runs on Motons next year...lately I only seem to be able to add 2 seconds...which if you think about it like I do is gonna be a 4 second improvement...
12-13-2005, 02:44 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
H4 track record at t-hill = 2:04.469. still nearly a second off the pace.
looking at the honda challenge website, i don't see your lap record in there anywhere. i don't see you holding a lap record at any track. what was the lap time you set, and on what track? only lap record i see of someone defending the DMS dampers is for Chris Lock in H5 at infineon over 2 yrs ago.
so are these lap records you guys were talking about HC lap records? for the first year HC made it to the west coast? or am i missing something. does anyone currently holding a lap record honestly think they can spend a couple thousand on their car and find more then a couple tenths??
nate - probably beaten this horse enough</TD></TR></TABLE>
The driver that holds that record at T-Hill, Donna Gillio...
RUNS DMS!
H4 track record at t-hill = 2:04.469. still nearly a second off the pace.
looking at the honda challenge website, i don't see your lap record in there anywhere. i don't see you holding a lap record at any track. what was the lap time you set, and on what track? only lap record i see of someone defending the DMS dampers is for Chris Lock in H5 at infineon over 2 yrs ago.
so are these lap records you guys were talking about HC lap records? for the first year HC made it to the west coast? or am i missing something. does anyone currently holding a lap record honestly think they can spend a couple thousand on their car and find more then a couple tenths??
nate - probably beaten this horse enough</TD></TR></TABLE>
The driver that holds that record at T-Hill, Donna Gillio...
RUNS DMS!
12-13-2005, 03:03 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
so are these lap records you guys were talking about HC lap records? for the first year HC made it to the west coast? or am i missing something. does anyone currently holding a lap record honestly think they can spend a couple thousand on their car and find more then a couple tenths??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK Nate,
Donna and I are a team and race Honda challenge and SCCA here in Northern California, between she and I, we now hold all of the nor cal H/C race records and 8 race and qualifying records in SCCA ITA and ITX including the track record Donna just set at PIR 2 weeks ago in ITA, we have 2 cars we race, a 92 integra and a 90 civic si. All of the track records were set on Konis. We HAVE found more then a couple of tenths. So next year at this time check back and see how low the track records are.
Modified by itaintegra52 at 12:26 AM 12/14/2005
so are these lap records you guys were talking about HC lap records? for the first year HC made it to the west coast? or am i missing something. does anyone currently holding a lap record honestly think they can spend a couple thousand on their car and find more then a couple tenths??
</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK Nate,
Donna and I are a team and race Honda challenge and SCCA here in Northern California, between she and I, we now hold all of the nor cal H/C race records and 8 race and qualifying records in SCCA ITA and ITX including the track record Donna just set at PIR 2 weeks ago in ITA, we have 2 cars we race, a 92 integra and a 90 civic si. All of the track records were set on Konis. We HAVE found more then a couple of tenths. So next year at this time check back and see how low the track records are.
Modified by itaintegra52 at 12:26 AM 12/14/2005
12-13-2005, 03:11 PM
#57
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Re: (KC)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by KC »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">From that other thread:
Stay away from the 40s. They're pure crap. The 50s are decent... but there's better options out there.
Reason I don't like the 40s? I had them... and a whole bunch of things that went wrong between DMS and myself:
1) told me I had to service the 'street' shocks as if they were rally shocks (wasn't toild this when they were sold... and not many dealers even know about that to this day)
2) trying to get warranty service on them was a matter of me paying to have them warrantied when there was a KNOWN stiction issue on the struts.
3) then... they decided to refuse warranty on them because I autocrossed them. (When they failed to grasp what autocross actually was... they thought it was what we call rally-x).
The solution? Have them shipped to Canada on my dime (Lachute Subaru), pay for what was a warranty repair and any necessary parts, and pay to have them shipped back... I still have them. Paid $1600 for them new. Used one year. Rusted away in 7 months. Yes.. DMS STRUTS WILL RUST within the 1st year.. badly.
This is not to say the 50s (tarmac or rally) are a good shock.. they are. It's the street 40s you have to be wary of. There are many that got 'shafted' by DMS in 2002, 2003 that still harbor bad feelings about them.
--kC</TD></TR></TABLE>
We should start a club. A friend of mine bought some DMS 'Gold' 40mm units for his WRX, only to have horriffic bouncing problems on normally paved surfaces. But I would take the thing down a beat up gravel country road and it would feel absolutely WONDERFUL. After talking to DMS for a month and a half (I installed them for him, and he really doesn't know anything about vehicles so I handled the tech-speak), changing springs in the rear, I got DMS to realize that it was a manufacturing issue.
They then wanted me to ship them up to Lachute Subaru and pay for the parts needed to make it work (but the labor was free - whoopee!). Even though they admitted it was a manufacturing defect. The friend still has the coilovers, he had me take them off, return the car to stock, and he traded it in for an R32 the next day (dick).
All in all, once they admitted the mistake they were helpful until it came time to discuss payment responsibility.
Also, according to DMS themselves, the shocks are supposed to be rebuilt every year. Street shocks. WTF.
Stay away from the 40s. They're pure crap. The 50s are decent... but there's better options out there.
Reason I don't like the 40s? I had them... and a whole bunch of things that went wrong between DMS and myself:
1) told me I had to service the 'street' shocks as if they were rally shocks (wasn't toild this when they were sold... and not many dealers even know about that to this day)
2) trying to get warranty service on them was a matter of me paying to have them warrantied when there was a KNOWN stiction issue on the struts.
3) then... they decided to refuse warranty on them because I autocrossed them. (When they failed to grasp what autocross actually was... they thought it was what we call rally-x).
The solution? Have them shipped to Canada on my dime (Lachute Subaru), pay for what was a warranty repair and any necessary parts, and pay to have them shipped back... I still have them. Paid $1600 for them new. Used one year. Rusted away in 7 months. Yes.. DMS STRUTS WILL RUST within the 1st year.. badly.
This is not to say the 50s (tarmac or rally) are a good shock.. they are. It's the street 40s you have to be wary of. There are many that got 'shafted' by DMS in 2002, 2003 that still harbor bad feelings about them.
--kC</TD></TR></TABLE>
We should start a club. A friend of mine bought some DMS 'Gold' 40mm units for his WRX, only to have horriffic bouncing problems on normally paved surfaces. But I would take the thing down a beat up gravel country road and it would feel absolutely WONDERFUL. After talking to DMS for a month and a half (I installed them for him, and he really doesn't know anything about vehicles so I handled the tech-speak), changing springs in the rear, I got DMS to realize that it was a manufacturing issue.
They then wanted me to ship them up to Lachute Subaru and pay for the parts needed to make it work (but the labor was free - whoopee!). Even though they admitted it was a manufacturing defect. The friend still has the coilovers, he had me take them off, return the car to stock, and he traded it in for an R32 the next day (dick).
All in all, once they admitted the mistake they were helpful until it came time to discuss payment responsibility.
Also, according to DMS themselves, the shocks are supposed to be rebuilt every year. Street shocks. WTF.
12-13-2005, 04:10 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (solo-x)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
nate - probably beaten this horse enough</TD></TR></TABLE>
I honestly don't understand the hostility of this thread. Our intention with becoming a DMS dealer and bringing these shocks to the honda community was because we have had success with them and want to share that success. I have not attacked any other shock manufacturers or persons on this forum. Because of this I am not sure what you have "beaten" down, other than my respect for you.
This thread is titled "DMS Shocks are very cool" and was simply someone saying he liked the shocks. It in no way warranted your unfounded remarks about their performance. I can only assume you then wanted to discredit the product for some reason. Since you admittedly have no experience with it, I can only guess at your motivation. Maybe you are a bully.
I will be the first one to say that I am not a mechnical engineer. I am a driver. So are all the people on this thread that have given positive feedback. All they know is that they went faster. They are all class champions, record holders, 25 hour champions, and professional drivers. Take that for what it is and no more. Testomonials are for people who don't understand fluid dynamics and make decisions based on performance rather than numbers. I think it pretty disrespectful to engage in this kind of slander under the guise of inquiring about performance specs.
To anyone actually cares about these products, they should contact Brian Lock. Our goals are to provide excellent customer support and get these shocks and springs out to the racers who will appreciate them.
nate - probably beaten this horse enough</TD></TR></TABLE>
I honestly don't understand the hostility of this thread. Our intention with becoming a DMS dealer and bringing these shocks to the honda community was because we have had success with them and want to share that success. I have not attacked any other shock manufacturers or persons on this forum. Because of this I am not sure what you have "beaten" down, other than my respect for you.
This thread is titled "DMS Shocks are very cool" and was simply someone saying he liked the shocks. It in no way warranted your unfounded remarks about their performance. I can only assume you then wanted to discredit the product for some reason. Since you admittedly have no experience with it, I can only guess at your motivation. Maybe you are a bully.
I will be the first one to say that I am not a mechnical engineer. I am a driver. So are all the people on this thread that have given positive feedback. All they know is that they went faster. They are all class champions, record holders, 25 hour champions, and professional drivers. Take that for what it is and no more. Testomonials are for people who don't understand fluid dynamics and make decisions based on performance rather than numbers. I think it pretty disrespectful to engage in this kind of slander under the guise of inquiring about performance specs.
To anyone actually cares about these products, they should contact Brian Lock. Our goals are to provide excellent customer support and get these shocks and springs out to the racers who will appreciate them.
12-13-2005, 04:13 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (mikeski38)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikeski38 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The DMS are not competing with the Koni yellows. They are on par with olinds, motons, and penskes. </TD></TR></TABLE>
If the DMS are on par with these shocks will they bump you up to H3?
If the DMS are on par with these shocks will they bump you up to H3?
12-13-2005, 04:40 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (gotocrx)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by gotocrx »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This thread is titled "DMS Shocks are very cool" and was simply someone saying he liked the shocks. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I was kinda on your side until that disingenuous sentence. A relative of yours went fishing (with an agenda) and you are surprised/shocked by what he caught.
Fact is if you want acceptance/sales potential in this thread... you have to satisfy both camps... the drivers and the tuners (the ones that need to understand before they accept). The tuners asked what they consider are simple questions (which aren't answered in the marketing material) and nobody answered them. And this isn't the first time they've been left unanswered. So it makes them a bit jumpy.
Andy
I was kinda on your side until that disingenuous sentence. A relative of yours went fishing (with an agenda) and you are surprised/shocked by what he caught.
Fact is if you want acceptance/sales potential in this thread... you have to satisfy both camps... the drivers and the tuners (the ones that need to understand before they accept). The tuners asked what they consider are simple questions (which aren't answered in the marketing material) and nobody answered them. And this isn't the first time they've been left unanswered. So it makes them a bit jumpy.
Andy
12-13-2005, 05:39 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (gotocrx)
Gotocrx, it seems h-t can be an unfriendly place at times and thought should be put into whether it's worth posting something or not in the first place. If yes, then you must accept anything that may get thrown back at you. Whether it's justified or not, that's pretty much irrelevant on a public forum. Also saying that "product X is cool" is an opinion and probably few people would care. However saying that product X is better than product Y is a lot more than that. It should not come as a surprise if some people would want some kind of evidence to support this claim as well as people disputing whatever evidence may be presented. The more well founded it is, the better a case you can make. So far, the statement that using product X is 2 seconds faster than using product Y seems to be the only supporting argument. Imo, and we are all entitled to one, that is a very weak argument as it makes skeptics out of some of those who have an idea of what a 2 second per lap difference really means and what it takes to achieve it. And it seems some may find unfriendlier ways to express this or other sentiments, but that's just how it is in a public forum. 
Have a good day!
Have a good day!
12-13-2005, 06:06 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (vtecvoodoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This thread might have worked in the suspension forum 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thats where I posted mine!
</TD></TR></TABLE>Thats where I posted mine!
12-13-2005, 08:43 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (vtecvoodoo)
if you notice, my tone only changed after someone claimed a 2 second per lap improvement. until then, i just wanted information. information i have yet to receive. a couple of questions though. it would seem you've had quite a bounty of success with koni's. why the change now? this couple of tenths that you found, do you honestly beleive it was all in the dampers, or could other things have influenced the lap times? (i assume that the springs were changed along with the dampers) any other development going on, or only suspension?
nate - will admit to not being the most tactful person in the world
nate - will admit to not being the most tactful person in the world
12-13-2005, 09:04 PM
#66
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (solo-x)
Nate, I think with your knowledge of suspension setup that 2 seconds is highly unlikely. However, someone else with a bad setup (because they don't understand setup) who then gets some professional help may in fact get 2 sec. or more.
We could go on and on about progressive spring rates and the problems with trying to find the best compromised setup for a race car, but I prefer not to at this point since that would be hijacking this thread. There is a reason why the top racing car manufacturers such as Porsche have used quasi-linear spring rates for years and years after exhaustively testing progressive rates. It was Porsche in the 70's that used tapered wire for their progressive spring rates and they found the difficulty in arriving at a predictable setup without spending countless hours of testing. The open wheel teams use rockers to define the effective progressiveness of their suspensions. However, they have very little suspension movement so the progressiveness is not so heavily relied upon like it would be in a longer travel suspension such as in sedan type racing.
Modified by Johnny Mac at 10:15 PM 12/13/2005
We could go on and on about progressive spring rates and the problems with trying to find the best compromised setup for a race car, but I prefer not to at this point since that would be hijacking this thread. There is a reason why the top racing car manufacturers such as Porsche have used quasi-linear spring rates for years and years after exhaustively testing progressive rates. It was Porsche in the 70's that used tapered wire for their progressive spring rates and they found the difficulty in arriving at a predictable setup without spending countless hours of testing. The open wheel teams use rockers to define the effective progressiveness of their suspensions. However, they have very little suspension movement so the progressiveness is not so heavily relied upon like it would be in a longer travel suspension such as in sedan type racing.
Modified by Johnny Mac at 10:15 PM 12/13/2005
12-13-2005, 09:11 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...I could go on and on about progressive spring rates and the problems with trying to find the best compromised setup for a race car, but I prefer not to at this point since that would be hijacking this thread.</TD></TR></TABLE>
"This guy is good...Really Good."
Scott, who considers Johnny Mac a dangerous competitor to be wary of...very wary of...very very wary...of...
"This guy is good...Really Good."
Scott, who considers Johnny Mac a dangerous competitor to be wary of...very wary of...very very wary...of...
12-13-2005, 09:17 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
"This guy is good...Really Good."
Scott, who considers Johnny Mac a dangerous competitor to be wary of...very wary of...very very wary...of...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Like Wily coyote?
"This guy is good...Really Good."
Scott, who considers Johnny Mac a dangerous competitor to be wary of...very wary of...very very wary...of...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Like Wily coyote?
12-13-2005, 09:26 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
"This guy is good...Really Good."
Scott, who considers Johnny Mac a dangerous competitor to be wary of...very wary of...very very wary...of...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep! J Mac is one hell of a nice guy and SUPER knowledgeable! Have not found a question he couldn't answer! Still trying!
He is always so polite too...
"This guy is good...Really Good."
Scott, who considers Johnny Mac a dangerous competitor to be wary of...very wary of...very very wary...of...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yep! J Mac is one hell of a nice guy and SUPER knowledgeable! Have not found a question he couldn't answer! Still trying!
He is always so polite too...
12-13-2005, 09:27 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Like Wily coyote?</TD></TR></TABLE>
That whole Wiley Coyote thing is just a clever subterfuge...though my telling you that might be just be part of an even deeper subterfuge.
Scott, who looks forward to swapping lies with Johnny Mac someday...
Like Wily coyote?</TD></TR></TABLE>
That whole Wiley Coyote thing is just a clever subterfuge...though my telling you that might be just be part of an even deeper subterfuge.
Scott, who looks forward to swapping lies with Johnny Mac someday...
12-13-2005, 09:30 PM
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (RR98ITR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
That whole Wiley Coyote thing is just a clever subterfuge...though my telling you that might be just be part of an even deeper subterfuge.
Scott, who looks forward to swapping lies with Johnny Mac someday...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Uhh ohhh... Scott learned to use a new word...
That whole Wiley Coyote thing is just a clever subterfuge...though my telling you that might be just be part of an even deeper subterfuge.
Scott, who looks forward to swapping lies with Johnny Mac someday...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Uhh ohhh... Scott learned to use a new word...
12-14-2005, 12:51 AM
#72
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (GOTO:Racing)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GOTO:Racing »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Progressive rate vs. single rate -
The main advantage to running the progressive rate spring and shock that DMS offers is that in any turn (more amplified at high speeds), the suspension will soak up small bumps without upsetting the car. This allows you to keep your foot in the gas and keeps you from having to saw at the wheel. In low to medium speed turns you can hit very tall overruns without hoping and sliding sideways across the track. Basically, the more time that your wheel spends in contact with the racing surface the better. For example turn one at Thunderhill (for those not familiar, 95+ mph sweeping 90 degree turn) which used to be a you know what puckerer with stiff single rate springs, has become way faster and way easier to drive. You are using way less effort and get 5+ mph more exit speed. This advantage is not as apperent in slower turns, but the concept is still there, and working.
The DMS duel progressiverate spring we feel is also superior to a "tender spring" or "helper spring" setup. With our spring you get the compliance of the first softer part of the spring, and then it quickly and smoothly ramps up, ultimately achieving the same peek rate. The graph of a DMS spring rate would be a smooth curve. The graph of a linear rate spring with a helper spring, would be two linear curves that meet. The point at which they meet will be a sharp transission, which can also upset the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
A helper spring has virtually no spring rate (around 5 lb/in to 10 lb/in) so this does not constitute a dual rate system. Helper springs are used (any TUV approved damper must use a helper to keep the main spring in it's seats) to put a light load on the springs in droop so that the spring seats properly. Tender springs, come in both linear and progressive varieties, are used to obtain a dual rate system in a specified range of suspension movement. My tenders are blocked at static ride height (per Honda Challenge Rules) so they don't even enter into the equation except in droop conditions. The tender spring rate that I use is 150 lbs/in.
Progressive rate springs are typically used for street comfort for a small amount of the available travel and then ramp up to handle the larger bumps and driving conditions without bottoming. This way, spring manufacturers can deliver a lower ride height without losing the suppleness of the ride for around the town driving. The problem with race applications is that the travel in the lighter spring rate gets used up quickly before the higher rate comes into play. Once the higher rate hits, the roll couple distribution is made very complicated by the ride height changes at each corner. You cannot keep track of the springs rates very easily without doing a very complicated suspension simulation. Throw in an ARB and the situation is further complicated.
The main advantage to running the progressive rate spring and shock that DMS offers is that in any turn (more amplified at high speeds), the suspension will soak up small bumps without upsetting the car. This allows you to keep your foot in the gas and keeps you from having to saw at the wheel. In low to medium speed turns you can hit very tall overruns without hoping and sliding sideways across the track. Basically, the more time that your wheel spends in contact with the racing surface the better. For example turn one at Thunderhill (for those not familiar, 95+ mph sweeping 90 degree turn) which used to be a you know what puckerer with stiff single rate springs, has become way faster and way easier to drive. You are using way less effort and get 5+ mph more exit speed. This advantage is not as apperent in slower turns, but the concept is still there, and working.
The DMS duel progressiverate spring we feel is also superior to a "tender spring" or "helper spring" setup. With our spring you get the compliance of the first softer part of the spring, and then it quickly and smoothly ramps up, ultimately achieving the same peek rate. The graph of a DMS spring rate would be a smooth curve. The graph of a linear rate spring with a helper spring, would be two linear curves that meet. The point at which they meet will be a sharp transission, which can also upset the car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
A helper spring has virtually no spring rate (around 5 lb/in to 10 lb/in) so this does not constitute a dual rate system. Helper springs are used (any TUV approved damper must use a helper to keep the main spring in it's seats) to put a light load on the springs in droop so that the spring seats properly. Tender springs, come in both linear and progressive varieties, are used to obtain a dual rate system in a specified range of suspension movement. My tenders are blocked at static ride height (per Honda Challenge Rules) so they don't even enter into the equation except in droop conditions. The tender spring rate that I use is 150 lbs/in.
Progressive rate springs are typically used for street comfort for a small amount of the available travel and then ramp up to handle the larger bumps and driving conditions without bottoming. This way, spring manufacturers can deliver a lower ride height without losing the suppleness of the ride for around the town driving. The problem with race applications is that the travel in the lighter spring rate gets used up quickly before the higher rate comes into play. Once the higher rate hits, the roll couple distribution is made very complicated by the ride height changes at each corner. You cannot keep track of the springs rates very easily without doing a very complicated suspension simulation. Throw in an ARB and the situation is further complicated.
12-14-2005, 03:45 AM
#73
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You cannot keep track of the springs rates very easily without doing a very complicated suspension simulation.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Imagine that, you might have to use an equation for k! What order I wonder.
Claude, who says an equation within an equation is the way to go.
You cannot keep track of the springs rates very easily without doing a very complicated suspension simulation.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Imagine that, you might have to use an equation for k! What order I wonder.
Claude, who says an equation within an equation is the way to go.
12-14-2005, 07:57 AM
#74
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Re: DMS Shocks are very cool (Johnny Mac)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Johnny Mac »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A helper spring has virtually no spring rate (around 5 lb/in to 10 lb/in) so this does not constitute a dual rate system. Helper springs are used (any TUV approved damper must use a helper to keep the main spring in it's seats) to put a light load on the springs in droop so that the spring seats properly. Tender springs, come in both linear and progressive varieties, are used to obtain a dual rate system in a specified range of suspension movement. My tenders are blocked at static ride height (per Honda Challenge Rules) so they don't even enter into the equation except in droop conditions. The tender spring rate that I use is 150 lbs/in.
Progressive rate springs are typically used for street comfort for a small amount of the available travel and then ramp up to handle the larger bumps and driving conditions without bottoming. This way, spring manufacturers can deliver a lower ride height without losing the suppleness of the ride for around the town driving. The problem with race applications is that the travel in the lighter spring rate gets used up quickly before the higher rate comes into play. Once the higher rate hits, the roll couple distribution is made very complicated by the ride height changes at each corner. You cannot keep track of the springs rates very easily without doing a very complicated suspension simulation. Throw in an ARB and the situation is further complicated.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for clarifying my oversight with the tender vs. helper spring.
A helper spring has virtually no spring rate (around 5 lb/in to 10 lb/in) so this does not constitute a dual rate system. Helper springs are used (any TUV approved damper must use a helper to keep the main spring in it's seats) to put a light load on the springs in droop so that the spring seats properly. Tender springs, come in both linear and progressive varieties, are used to obtain a dual rate system in a specified range of suspension movement. My tenders are blocked at static ride height (per Honda Challenge Rules) so they don't even enter into the equation except in droop conditions. The tender spring rate that I use is 150 lbs/in.
Progressive rate springs are typically used for street comfort for a small amount of the available travel and then ramp up to handle the larger bumps and driving conditions without bottoming. This way, spring manufacturers can deliver a lower ride height without losing the suppleness of the ride for around the town driving. The problem with race applications is that the travel in the lighter spring rate gets used up quickly before the higher rate comes into play. Once the higher rate hits, the roll couple distribution is made very complicated by the ride height changes at each corner. You cannot keep track of the springs rates very easily without doing a very complicated suspension simulation. Throw in an ARB and the situation is further complicated.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you for clarifying my oversight with the tender vs. helper spring.
12-17-2005, 08:09 AM
#75
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This post is retarded. Mike came on and said that he liked DMS as a RACING shock alternative, now we have people blowing &%%$ out of their A$$. They have heard some technical explanations in the past from people who probably did know what they were talking about. The thing is that it is one thing to regurgitate info, and another to put it in practice. Also, if you ask a 50 year old chasis guy and a 20 year old chasis guy, BOTH will have 100% different setups. Old way vs. new way. New cars have better geometries, etc. and can handle different setups that would not necessarly work on a '77 PORSCHE when progressive rate springs were first tried. Tender/linear setup ALWAYS has a break from were one ends, and the other starts. This is a definate transition point. Progressive springs get rid of that flat spot. The down side to this ? Cost. It is very expensive to make these springs, that is why it is not commonly offered in aftermarket applications.
I had a chance to work with GOTO:Racing and some other DMS customers recently, and I witnessed first hand 1 1/2 to 2 seconds OUT OF THE DMS BOX the time they gained. This was with no tuning, setup, allignment changes. Nothing else was done at all. I am sure that there was some other variables that affected the 'out of the box' gains, but when they went on and got another 1 second after making 3 adjustment changes on the spring preload, bump and rebound settings ... sorry, but something is being done right, and cars that were not normally fast, were staying on the heels of the leaders.
This is my two cents, yes I am biased to DMS, but so far 3 cars switched to DMS, and 3 cars got HUGE gains. 2 more orders have been made since other competitors saw the gains. I am sure there will be more people that merely want to stay competitive.
Original point, Mike liked the KONIS for what they are, a quality STREET PERFORMANCE shock. He still likes them, still recommends them. He was simply saying that the next step upwards is a costly one, but recommend trying the DMS. End of Point. Too bad people took more out of Mikes statement than was required ....
Modified by MSI at 9:38 AM 12/17/2005
I had a chance to work with GOTO:Racing and some other DMS customers recently, and I witnessed first hand 1 1/2 to 2 seconds OUT OF THE DMS BOX the time they gained. This was with no tuning, setup, allignment changes. Nothing else was done at all. I am sure that there was some other variables that affected the 'out of the box' gains, but when they went on and got another 1 second after making 3 adjustment changes on the spring preload, bump and rebound settings ... sorry, but something is being done right, and cars that were not normally fast, were staying on the heels of the leaders.
This is my two cents, yes I am biased to DMS, but so far 3 cars switched to DMS, and 3 cars got HUGE gains. 2 more orders have been made since other competitors saw the gains. I am sure there will be more people that merely want to stay competitive.
Original point, Mike liked the KONIS for what they are, a quality STREET PERFORMANCE shock. He still likes them, still recommends them. He was simply saying that the next step upwards is a costly one, but recommend trying the DMS. End of Point. Too bad people took more out of Mikes statement than was required ....
Modified by MSI at 9:38 AM 12/17/2005