mattbatson

2009 Civic Si, bone stock, running carbotech XP 10 pads on brembo rotors with ATE super blue and michelin pilot super sport tires in stock size. 80 degrees weather....

drivers schools and pdx's under SCCA at daytona run an infield course, and do not get onto the banking.

here is a short crappy video...https://vimeo.com/63985650 so you can see the course



one of the pads on the left side actually bent...with really uneven wear of the pad material as a result.

also have hairline cracks on the pads on the right side forming...


the caliper dust boots melted also...



I did boil the ATE super blue and by the third session I had a soft pedal.

I emailed carbotech to see if they would do anything for me, since at least the left side is now unusable...almost 200 bucks in pads for one day of track time.

Are this gen civic si brakes a weak point?

I guess I'm a little surprised as I figured I had done all the necessary brake mods to make it hold up to a stupid track day.

anybody have this kind of problem?

Should I simply avoid this track in the future?

thx

chad

you are dragging the brakes creating way too much heat!

Xian

Bingo. Chad beat me to it...

Was this your first DE?

dirty19

iTrader: (1)

X3 also did you change the brake lines too?
Did you bed in those pads properly?
You cant change pads, and run them.
From experiences of others who have run the carbotechs they usually bed them in, pull the pads and let them sit a day, then put them back in.
Not surprising you cooked them.... they can be a tricky pad to work with.

mattbatson

how am I dragging the brakes?

do you mean I'm resting my foot on the brake pedal?

if so, I can assure you that isnt it, lol

edit...
how does one even do that?
my right foot is on the gas and left foot is working the clutch.

how would I be resting my foot on the brake pedal?

mattbatson

this was my first pdx

however, from 2004 to 2008 I road raced with the SCCA in ITB...and was quite competitive...
meaning, I'm a pretty decent driver.

no ego.
Trust me, I'm not full of myself, ha ha
But before racing cars I road raced motorcycles and auto x before that...way back in the eighties...
so I have some experience

mattbatson

Hey,
I bedded the brakes in like I have with my old race cars back in the day
In fact, back in the day I ran carbotechs exclusively.

the day before the event I went out into the neighborhood and ran it up to about 55, then hard braking to near stop...repeat about 8 times
then parked in garage and the car sat till the next morning when I drove it the 25 miles to daytona.
I also bought a new set of front rotors that will be run with the carbotechs only...as a matched set.

I've never had this problem with brakes or carbotech's before, which is why I wondered if it was the car?

StatGSR

btw, your video link is broken

nick91civicsi

Wow, I'd like to hear more about dragging the brakes because Im about to do my first track day with some new hawk ht-10 pads and this was my first time bedding in brake pads and Im not sure if I did it right...

mattbatson

hmmm, odd
it worked earlier, but your right it isnt now
I'll try again

https://vimeo.com/63985650

Xian

Ahhhh... gotcha. Thought the name looked familiar.

So, it's tough to tell in the video with the background noise and camera angle but it kinda looked like you were tentative on the brakes resulting in more time on the brake pedal. Could be wrong on what you were doing though. Otherwise, it looks like the brakes are just plain old generating more heat than the system can handle. If you fried a dust seal/boot and boiled the fluid then the pads are stopping the car, right? I'd expect that the funky wear may be a result of the sky high pad/rotor/caliper temps? The uneven wear though looks like what I've seen when the sliders aren't properly lubed (disclaimer: my experiences have been with Civic/CRX/Integra's in the 88-01 range, not sure if the 09 Civic has the same or similar front caliper and slider design).

Last thing I'll mention is the "street" tires that you're on are really, really good. As I'm sure you saw, they're probably closer to a long wearing R-comp than a real street tire. With this grip, heavy stock weight, and ITR-class type power it'll be tough on the brakes...

Next time, I'd also suggest a track that has a little more room between braking zones. You just missed a Friday DE at Roebling with Seat-Time.com. I was up there instructing in my street/stock braked Type R. Even with bolt ons, suspension, wider wheels, and sticky street tires I never had a problem.

mattbatson

I would like to hear about this also
I honestly dont know how it is even possible.

Maybe if you left foot brake? And you rest your foot on the brake pedal when it isnt on the clutch?

That is the only scenario I can even think of...


I'm beginning to think, after some thought on this, that this track is just extraordinarily hard on brakes. There are three pretty hard braking zones (turn one is braking from about 105mph to about 30mph) and my lap times were about 1:05.

Maybe that is the problem...

miamirice

Interesting. I have used Carbo tech for years and been very happy with no problems. You had fresh rotors.....I bed mine like this: 55ish mph x3, then 100ish x 2-3 then a thorough cool off. Don't think that was your problem though. I also don't think the Daytona infield should be hard on brakes.

Did you check your caliper brackets/sliders yet that all is kosher there? The pad wear looks like flexing?

Cooked piston boots no biggie either, very common on the s2000.

I am surprised you boiled the fluid on that infield config.

mattbatson

I agree that it is really hard to tell details via on board camera's, but I assure you I was not tentative on the brakes, ha ha.
I've always lived by the famous race car driver's description of race car braking technique where he compares it to taking a crap....it goes something like "initially you push very hard and then less and less until..."...well, you get the picture, lol

I was hard on the brakes, and then got off them as soon as I could so as to be full throttle through the corner. I didnt even do any trail braking all that much.


And yes, the car was stopping fantastically
I actually gained ground on the brakes on most of the cars, and lost none in that area to anyone...
AND, many of them, like that red 3rd gen rx7 and black corvette and others were running full race slicks.
So yeah, the brakes were impressive
As I've said, I have always loved carbotech's

When I saw the left side bent pad, my initial thought was also a stuck slider. However, the sliders were great, and the grease inside them was actually still very fresh. The car has 50K miles on it and I have never touched the brakes.
However, I am reinstalling the stock pads and rotors today, as they STILL have life left in them (I do a lot of hypermiling on the street).

yes, the michelin super sports were awesome, although I havent been able to compare them side by side to other tires. Even with the 300 treadwear rating, they do have lots of grip. And I have about 15K miles on mine, and they only look half done, if even that.
very happy with them.

I've done roebling on a motorcycle, and yes it is much easier on brakes, with only one hard braking zone at turn one.
Its just a four hour drive for me, with daytona next door and sebring two hours away.

mattbatson

Yeah, as said, the sliders were all moving fine, and the grease looked new inside them.

there are two really hard braking zones on that track, and a third moderate one....all in a minute lap.
think that is it?

Xian

LOL. "The car was a demon on the brakes but it burned the front end to the ground." Yep, sounds like a Honda.

Based on the additional details/commentary, it sounds more and more to me like you just pushed the stock system beyond what it can handle given the weight, power, grip, etc. A more open track would get the system back into it's happy zone OR maybe some ducting would help.

mattbatson

ha ha, yeah it does seem like honda puts just "enough" brake on some of their cars.

That is kinda why I asked on here, as I didnt know if the latest generation civic's still had this problem.
I wanted to know if other owners have experienced issues...
I even looked for a showroom stock forum, as I know these cars are raced in SSB...but no luck finding one.
And it looks like showroom stock is no more?

Wow, I've been out of the loop for a while, lol

And only because of my one son...and you have three kids....I cant even imagine

anyways, I think my solution is going to be to stay away from PDX's at daytona and just do either sebring or roebling.

I've emailed carbotech and will be sending the pads back to them, since i cant use them anymore anyways, and I'll see if they are going to help me out.
They certainly arent obligated to do anything of course.
Just be nice if they did....

mattbatson

oh, and a tip for others considering tracking their stock wheels....remove the center caps

I lost one off the left front



I told my wife I literally drove the wheels off the car

she didnt think it was funny....

Xian

Agreed on the Honda brake thing... the S2000 and ITR are the only two that come to mind as not needing bigger brakes for track duty (or lighter weight, ducting, etc).

Yeah, IIRC, SS got absorbed by Touring somehow/someway with different allowances to speed up/slow down everyone? Or maybe that was just a proposal? If I'm honest, I didn't pay that much attention to it.

Yep, with the Trinity of Terror all hitting 4 years, it's easier to get out semi-frequently. Especially if it's on a "work day" anyway. LOL.

You should definitely hit up one of Jon's RRR DE's. Typically get around 2 hours of track time with a smooth rotation and very, very little traffic. He keeps the groups on the small side to eliminate conga-lines of cars. I'm south of Jax, and it's just over 2 hours for me door to door. Well worth the drive just for the savings in consumables!

BTW, any idea what your car's weight is?

PS
Ran across this... looks like the TSX rotor/caliper is a bolt-on affair?
http://www.8thcivic.com/forums/suspe...ml#post4152954

mattbatson

Wow that is great
Who knew tsx brakes would be beefier with more swept area and bigger vents?
I think I will try my current set up for the next pix, and stay away from Daytona and see what happens
If I have the same problem at other tracks then I'll get tsx brakes

Or, when it comes time for new rotors and caliper rebuild, I'll just switch....as the cost diff will be minimal
Beginning my search in junk yards now.....
Thx for that

With me in it, I think the weight is around 3200
Definitely not a flyweight

Roe bling sounds good....I'll look that guy up

Xian

Wowza! Yeah, 3200# with a pad that's shared with stuff like the 99/00 Si is a tough task. I'm betting that you can get the stock parts to work at less braking intensive tracks... probably.

Hit me up if you've got any questions on his events. I've been running them on and off for probably 8 or 9 years in everything from street cars to race cars. Great format and enough track time that you don't even feel back skipping a session. Heck, I skipped a couple sessions Friday just b/c I was "busy" BS'ing with some of the NASA folks.

mattbatson

I think you nailed it.
Heavy car, okay brakes, and braking intensive track....all added up to failure of the system.
I actually walked around to the other drivers in the advanced group to see if they were having brake problems, but for the most part everyone was running big stoptech's or such...or had cars like lotus exige's that have more than sufficient brakes from the factory...
My car was by far the most pedestrian, so it was hard to find people to compare to.

btw,
looks like carbotech isnt going to help me out...
here is their response...

""Matt,



Thanks for all of the info, your going along the right lines, but there is one thing being missed, you almost hit on though. If one pad, on one side has an issue like a bent backing plate, you had a mechanical failure of some sort. It could have been any number of things that caused it, but something made that one pad stick or not release, which caused a LOT of heat, softened the backing plate and then it bent under the hydraulic pressure of the caliper and your pedal pressure.




That track is hard on brakes, and the S2000 is under brakes for it's weight and HP with the OEM set up, and while that all compounded the issue you had, it was not the cause.




Take a good look at the calipers, look for build up or debris, a problem with the boot and piston seals, clean or remove the slides, check to see that the pistons will completely retract, check your wheel bearings (if one goes or is going, the rotor can lean in and cause this as well), check the rear calipers as well and finally, you may have to replace the master cylinder. Likely, something caused that pad to get stuck, debris, caliper flex or spread, improper pad retraction or the rotor at an angle. Unfortunately, there are a LOT of possibilities. You will want to fix the cause if you can find one so that it doesn't happen again in the future.




You can send the pads back to us if you want to, but you don't have to. We have seen it before, and it's always something mechanical. My brother Chris, who is also our engineer, races an S2000 in T3 in the SCCA, so we are pretty familiar with the issue's with the car. if you have any questions, let me know.




Hope that helps!







Mike Jr.""


He, for some reason, thought I was in an s2000...I corrected him in my response...
So, I'm guessing I'm just out two hundred in brake pads for one track day, lol...

I'm hoping that perhaps this thread will help others with grocery getters who want to track their cars.
Find out if the track is hard on brakes ahead of time, and plan ahead. Or do as I'm planning on doing, and just skip that specific track altogether.
As it is, skipping the infield track at daytona wont be much of a biggie for me, as I didnt enjoy it all that much anyways...kind of like a big autox course.

Xian

The bent pad isn't too unusual, IMO, but the one with the extreme taper wear is funky... was the tapered pad on the inside or outside of the rotor? Is the extreme wear the leading or trailing edge?

mattbatson

looks like seat-time has an event on june 21 that I may aim for....
190 bucks is pretty reasonable...especially when HPDE's are like 400 dollars

mattbatson

hey, the bent pad was the one with the tapered wear.
I think it happened around the second session...getting bent I mean...and then I continued to drive on it...so then I got that weird tapered wear.

to be honest, I'm not sure which side of the caliper it was on.
I pulled both pads and took them outside of the garage to spray them down with brake cleaner before storage...and that is when I noticed the problem.
I had already done the passenger side, and didnt see any issues other than they looked like they had worn quite a bit, and one was showing a hairline crack...but I thought nothing of it.
then I moved to the drivers side, and found the bent pad