I'm currently running the neuspeed coilovers,a Neuspeed spring on a Bilstein shock with a threaded body,and wanted to change to a stiffer rate. According to Neuspeed they are 350 fr. and 250 r. I was going to call Ground Control and just get some of their (Eibach) springs to replace the Neuspeeds. What do you guys think is an appropriat rate?I just feel that my set up is a bit soft right now when I'm on the track or the autox. I have a 99 si with a B18c5 motor and the cars weight is just above 2400lbs. I am also running a Comptech rear sway/tie combo. I know this leaves a lot up for debate,but generally speaking I thought some info might be able to steer me in the right direction.


[Modified by Obee1.8, 7:26 AM 6/27/2002]


[Modified by Obee1.8, 7:29 AM 6/27/2002]

 

What shocks are you running?

 

what type of competition are you planning on doing. the 350/250 combo is set up for stiffer than stock, but still understeer heavily. going something like 350/450 is going to promote more oversteer, but less safe for normal street driving. 350/250 is actually what GC gives for the stock CRX kit. depending on what youre application is, that will be more helpful in recommending spring rates.

 

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=203006

 

The shocks are Bilstein.

 

I don't know that I would really call it "competition" Auto x and a few track events each year. On the track this past weekend I just felt like the car had a tendency to understeer and was thinking that if I could go slightly stiffer it might help that,but I don't want to go overboard,the car is still a daily driver.

 

get a rear swaybar. will help promote oversteer in the turns without making the ride much harsher. basically youre almost in effect just stiffening the rear springs, but you lose some independent suspension back there, but thats fine. its not worth going to a adjustable perch and new springs, especially if youre happy with your ride height.

 

Hey Tyson, how do those work?

 

I have a 2000 Si with the Comptech bar and a stock(size) motor, and find that 350f/400r is pretty neutral. I can adjust rotation pretty easy with tire pressure. Doesn't beat you up too much, either. These are the rates Truechoice recommended for my car for street, autox, and some track days.

Not sure if the b18 is enough heavier to make a difference. You might want to just order a pair of 400lb springs for the rear and see how they feel with the 350s in front.

 

This is what he has now, the Bilsteins are not adjustable. Does anyone know what kind of rates these can handle?

 

stiffer is better in an autocross world. if you don't lower the car too much you can run 200lbs/in front 180 lbs/in rear and the car will still ride pretty nice (wheel rates, not actual spring rate). you can go softer if you use stiff sway bars but i wouldn't recommend it. i'm running spring rates right now that are at the limit of my koni sports and i still think i need stiffer springs! though the next limiting factor will probably be the tires. i'll be attempting to adapt an itr front sway bar to an eg civic this weekend, so maybe i'll be able to stiffen it up some more by getting a bigger front bar. (stock right now)

 

[QUOTE]get a rear swaybar. will help promote oversteer in the turns without making the ride much harsher. basically youre almost in effect just stiffening the rear springs, but you lose some independent suspension back there, but thats fine. its not worth going to a adjustable perch and new springs, especially if youre happy with your ride height.[/QUOTE

I am using the Comptech sway/tie combo right now.

 

Thank you, that is good to know. What were you running before that,if anything,and did you notice much difference going to your current set up?

 

Went straight from stock to the coilovers, Konis, and the sway bar. The normal fwd push just went away, and I could get the car to turn. Ride is rougher, and you can feel that the back end is stiff, but I still commute 70 miles round-trip with my wife in the car, and she hasn't complained(much).

 

explain less safe, i was considering these rates with yellows for my civic(daily driver)


Mike D

 

Just out of curiosity, are your Konis off-the-shelf or revalved? How stiff do you set them on the street? I ask because I saw something on here from a Koni rep suggesting that #400 was about the max spring for an OTS Koni. I'm considering a similar setup for my Integra. Thanks,

--buji

 

yeah i read that same thread. People have run up to #600 rates with success. However, with rates that high, the shocks will wear faster.

But from everything i have read, #600 is the highest rates konis are really capable of damping. Correct me if im wrong.


Mike D

 

I think for street drivers, having an oversteering car is less safe than having a understeering car. on the track, having a oversteering car is definately advantageous, and some say safer when the driver knows what he's doing, but thats when driven under control at the limit. an understeering car is much more predictable, although it may drift way far out more than you want, you know where its going to go.

however if you want to go in the oversteer direction, i use 450/900 on my crx, and am forced to drive it on the street for now. i used to have prokits.


[Modified by Tyson, 12:26 AM 6/28/2002]

 

Mine are off-the-shelf. I have them set enough to control bounce (3/4 turn from full soft front, 1 1/4 turn from full soft rear) but I still have alot to figure out about setting them up for the track.

I'd say less safe is a relative term. Most stock cars are designed to understeer at the limit. When you exceed the car's cornering limit or unbalance the car by braking or making sudden throttle changes, the front end breaks loose first and you go straighter, but still front end first. Once you lose enough speed, you can get back in control. The manufacturers build them that way because most folks first reaction to trouble is to jam on the brakes.

In a car set up to oversteer, if you exceed the cornering limit (usually higher) or make bad brake or throttle input, the rear tends to break loose first. If you don't know how to handle this you'll spin, and have no control over what happens next.

The goal is to find a happy medium between the two. As many here have suggested before, the experts at Ground Control or TrueChoice can generally get you a good safe setup if you can give them a reasonable idea of what you want to do with the car.





[Modified by Geezer, 7:19 AM 6/28/2002]

 

Tyson and Geezer,


Thank you for your input.


Mike D

 

there is some reason to think that using higher roll resistance at the rear of the car is not the best setup. many top suspension tuners that go into the effort of testing various setups and using tools such as computer programs and such to determine a closer base setup end up using more roll resistance in the front then rear. from my own testing and suspension tuning i found a couple things.
1. removing the front sway bar (400lb fr 300lb rr springs) with a 22mm rear bar will increase oversteer
2. ironically, re-installing front sway bar did not increase push in steady state turns with no other changes to the car.
3. however, having the front sway bar connected did increase overall grip and turn in.
4. (the beginning of speculation) if no front bar increased oversteer, and adding the stock front sway bar didn't increase steady state turn push, but increased grip, one would think that going to a bigger front bar would further increase overall grip with very few detrimental drawbacks.

these conclusions will probably not work with a car on softer suspension. i say this because with the 6 different suspension setups i've run this rear i've had to tune the shocks in a different manner (not just different settings, a completely different approach) so i'm assume that with different spring rates the sway bar selection might differ. i currently have equal roll resistance front and back on my car but i'm working on adapting a itr front bar to replace the stock unit. if i get it to work, say hello to setup #7!!!!!!! thank god i find this crap fun. :D

my dream setup:
27mm front bar, 14mm adjustable rear bar, 900lb/in front springs, 1200lb/in rear springs. i'm just trying to figure out how to do this with street tires, i think that will be too much spring for the soft sidewalls. i may just have to go to dsp!