Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers
01-19-2007, 09:03 AM
#26
Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (kb58)
I guess you guys are more educated than I thought. In the EK forum, they are like parrots. "wak wak JDM JDM". Yes when I said "pushing more fluid through the lines" that wasnt accurate. What it means is if you've taken physics, youll understand that its two pistons, one in the MC, the other in the caliper. It doesn't really matter the diameter of the brake hoses. When braking, the actual piston in the caliper moves very very little, it is actually transfering the force you put into the master cylinder, because ideally, brake fluid does not expand, its like water. So long as your brake system is air free, yes, its transfering the force, and your not REALLY pushing fluid. I mean as the brake pad wears, yes you are moving some fluid from the resovoir to the caliper.
Regarding nose dive, again, what I said was not accurate. Most will attest to the car "diving" less with the addition of rear discs. You have not really shifted any weight, minus the addition of 17lbs extra in the back of the car. But like he said, there are other factors, including how disc and drum brake systems differ, the car design, etc.
Thanks for helpin me out with this.
Regarding nose dive, again, what I said was not accurate. Most will attest to the car "diving" less with the addition of rear discs. You have not really shifted any weight, minus the addition of 17lbs extra in the back of the car. But like he said, there are other factors, including how disc and drum brake systems differ, the car design, etc.
Thanks for helpin me out with this.
01-19-2007, 03:08 PM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (Redline57)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I guess you guys are more educated than I thought. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Welcome to RR/Autox
Welcome to RR/Autox
01-21-2007, 07:30 PM
#29
Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (6spdKEG)
What more do ya want? I've checked, um. I don't know what other brake setups to offer. I'm experimenting with some more modern Accord calipers and older Civic calipers to find more setups, and if someone wants to send me some S2000 rear brakes, I'll mess with them. The ridgeline/odyssey/pilot/mdx rear caliper is a no go for bolt on parts, but I'm researching new rotors. So far its a redrilled Acura CL rotor but needs a hub ring and may or may not need machining/wheel spacing.
Anyone need anything clarified?
Again, if ya need a brake setup, I may have it so feel free to PM me.
Anyone need anything clarified?
Again, if ya need a brake setup, I may have it so feel free to PM me.
01-22-2007, 08:17 AM
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Actually drum and disk brakes will stop the same distance once. I would venture to say drums will stop better than disks because of the increased contact area of the friction material, but it will only do it once or twice. One of the benefits of disk brakes is the cooling ability of the exposed disk. Plus the don't change shape when they get hot and affect pedal effort like drums do.
I switch from drums just because I hate working on drums. My first car came with disk brakes on the rear so I have a hard time keeping anything less on the rears of any vehicle.
I switch from drums just because I hate working on drums. My first car came with disk brakes on the rear so I have a hard time keeping anything less on the rears of any vehicle.
01-22-2007, 12:59 PM
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Re: (turboteener)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboteener »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Actually drum and disk brakes will stop the same distance once. I would venture to say drums will stop better than disks because of the increased contact area of the friction material, but it will only do it once or twice. One of the benefits of disk brakes is the cooling ability of the exposed disk. Plus the don't change shape when they get hot and affect pedal effort like drums do.
I switch from drums just because I hate working on drums. My first car came with disk brakes on the rear so I have a hard time keeping anything less on the rears of any vehicle. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i had a old friend (literally, he was old) who useto rally minis and he said back in the day alot of the amateur racers liked the drums better in the rear becuase they locked up easier than disc, allowing them to left foot break and locking up the rear at will.
I switch from drums just because I hate working on drums. My first car came with disk brakes on the rear so I have a hard time keeping anything less on the rears of any vehicle. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i had a old friend (literally, he was old) who useto rally minis and he said back in the day alot of the amateur racers liked the drums better in the rear becuase they locked up easier than disc, allowing them to left foot break and locking up the rear at will.
01-22-2007, 09:23 PM
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Thats funny. I had a 73 Plymouth Valient in my shop awhile back. It was all original, 18K original miles. Anyway it had non power drums. Those brakes would throw you through the windshield with very little effort. I was pretty impressed. I would not however go rollin' down the twisties though, they would probably overheat.
01-22-2007, 10:38 PM
#33
Re: (turboteener)
Well yeah, im sure on a single stop and if they were big enough. Like if you put 12" drums front and back on a civic, im sure it could stop well too. I'm impressed that a Plymouth could do that. Most older cars with drums sucked ***. Like the Charger, brakes were like jello.
With the drums locking, yeah that was cool back when tires sucked. On a Mini, which I think was the first FWD car to really go racing, i bet it helped, but with our civics and better tires, locking the wheels means your loosing traction and the car needs to be readjusted. Drifting was good for cars back then don't get me wrong, but nowadays we have better methods of getting round corners.
I will agree drum brakes have better cable e-brake mechanisms. This is evident in how many luxury cars use a separate e-brake thats a thin drum. This excludes supercars, as a 4 piston caliper can't easily have an integrated cam brake in the caliper like the 7CLP13S caliper.
With the drums locking, yeah that was cool back when tires sucked. On a Mini, which I think was the first FWD car to really go racing, i bet it helped, but with our civics and better tires, locking the wheels means your loosing traction and the car needs to be readjusted. Drifting was good for cars back then don't get me wrong, but nowadays we have better methods of getting round corners.
I will agree drum brakes have better cable e-brake mechanisms. This is evident in how many luxury cars use a separate e-brake thats a thin drum. This excludes supercars, as a 4 piston caliper can't easily have an integrated cam brake in the caliper like the 7CLP13S caliper.
01-23-2007, 08:06 AM
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I am not debating locked tires are not a bad thing, Absolutely it is. If your tire are locked you have exceeded the limits of traction. You are no longer stopping.
I attest the brakes on the Valient to the limited miles. I imagine the Charger should have had as good brakes with proper maintenance.
I don't know that the E-brake will make or brake a good caliper design. The CGT uses a spot caliper in addition to its four piston calipers on the rear. But the Infinity G35 uses a drum and shoe type parking brake. I think it is a packaging thing.
Drums are as bad as people make them out to be, but I really hate adjusting them so I will swap them out when ever possible. Up until a few years ago drums were used on the front of some of the biggest earthmovers and dump trucks. What ever works. But in a high performance application where brake usage is high disks are the only way to go.
I attest the brakes on the Valient to the limited miles. I imagine the Charger should have had as good brakes with proper maintenance.
I don't know that the E-brake will make or brake a good caliper design. The CGT uses a spot caliper in addition to its four piston calipers on the rear. But the Infinity G35 uses a drum and shoe type parking brake. I think it is a packaging thing.
Drums are as bad as people make them out to be, but I really hate adjusting them so I will swap them out when ever possible. Up until a few years ago drums were used on the front of some of the biggest earthmovers and dump trucks. What ever works. But in a high performance application where brake usage is high disks are the only way to go.
01-24-2007, 09:41 PM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (Redline57)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redline57 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I hope this helps some people in here. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. Yes it did. Thank you.
I hope this helps some people in here. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes. Yes it did. Thank you.
01-25-2007, 05:23 AM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (BbOi0420)
While we're at this, there's another common misperception about brakes.
Many people think that if they get a big brake kit, their car will stop faster, in less distance. If an ABS-equipped car stops 60-0 in, oh, 120 feet, what is the limiting factor? What is the one link in the chain that keeps the car from stopping in a shorter distance? The tires.
If bigger brakes are installed, all that does is give more clamping force and more area to dump the heat into. However, more clamping force or not, high deceleration cannot be achieved, because the tires are already at the edge of adhesion. The car can absolutely not slow down any faster than it is. Of course, this applies only up to the point where the stock brakes overheat, after that, yes, it's time for a racing brake set up... or maybe just different pads.
Big brakes are another "racing" mod that, on a street-driven car, actually makes it slower. That's due to the outright weight gain, and the increased rotational mass.
Many people think that if they get a big brake kit, their car will stop faster, in less distance. If an ABS-equipped car stops 60-0 in, oh, 120 feet, what is the limiting factor? What is the one link in the chain that keeps the car from stopping in a shorter distance? The tires.
If bigger brakes are installed, all that does is give more clamping force and more area to dump the heat into. However, more clamping force or not, high deceleration cannot be achieved, because the tires are already at the edge of adhesion. The car can absolutely not slow down any faster than it is. Of course, this applies only up to the point where the stock brakes overheat, after that, yes, it's time for a racing brake set up... or maybe just different pads.
Big brakes are another "racing" mod that, on a street-driven car, actually makes it slower. That's due to the outright weight gain, and the increased rotational mass.
01-25-2007, 07:33 AM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (kb58)
well put Kb58 about the tire correlation
The following is a lil more related to HPDE/racing then Autocross.. .
More so, if you are looking for max gains with a big brake kit there is more to it than just slapping on larger rotors and pads. Previous problems with stock setup, Tires, brake pad compound and fluid all need to be considered.. .
If you’re not stopping as fast as you want on.. .
stock calipers >> Stock Rotors >>> Stock like brake fluid (Dot 3)
You should probably go through this in your decision making and also read websites like -
Probably the best site > http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faqs.shtml
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/index.jsp
Carbotech Brakes - http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqs.html
http://www.cobaltfriction.com/services/
1.) What do I want to do with the car?
**Street Warrior? = How long do you want rotors and pads to last? Most racing type compounds are not going to last that long with daily driving and some of them might not even stop your car that well b/c the pad compound needs to see the proper temps.
**autocross? = you don't need huge brakes here - only adds weight and will "rarely" ever see temps that will warp or fad quality brake components. Spend your money better brake pads, better brake fluid and rebuild your current brakes.. .
**HPDE, racing ? = what weight is your car and what HP? Going to need a compound to stop that weight... What skill level are you at? You don't want a compound that is too aggressive for your experience and style. Don't necessarily listen to me, research what has worked for others and talk with the specialists
2.) What condition is your current brake setup in and what conditions have you seen driving it?
**old fluid? change that first, properly bleed the system and see what the braking feels like.. .
**warped rotors from? Street peeps - did you drive the car real hard and go wash it off at the car wash? you may have warped them there, not on the street. HPDE/race- did you not let your brakes cool down after the track session properly or did you use your E-brake right after racing or drive through a puddle supper cooling the brakes?
** Warped rotors from tracking? you may need an upgrade or you just use your brakes too much ;-) common problem for rookies.. . There are more reasons for warping rotors as well. After a track session look at your rotors.. . are they discolored? Blue maybe? If they are, you are most likely getting them babies nice and cherry!
>> The warping might not be from deformation at all - it might be from uneven brake deposits on your rotors. This means your pads are riding on the highs and lows of these deposits. Your rotors either need to be turned, junked, or try just waiting till your brakes are completely cold, and go do some hard stopping. That might knock the deposits off.. .
** FADING - If fluid is good (not boiling), foot isn't going to the floor & not warping rotors = you probably just need to upgrade your brake pad compound.. .is there a cake of compound on your rotors? Sometimes the compound will be blue or green. Don't misinterpret this as your rotors are getting too hot.. . There should always be a very thin layer of brake compound on your rotors as well. It is needed for proper braking on any car.. . I've scene Vipers and Corvettes using racing brake compounds and their rotors are just caked with pad compound - I ask them if they are fading, they say no. Caked enough that there is cracks in the material while is still sticking to the rotors.. . I mistakenly thought that their rotors were actually cracked!! Stupid me
The above is from reading on sites, talking with brake manufacturers and personal experience
1st - I have gone from a stock 94 EX to a K20 swap
2nd - Dot3 honda fluid, GSR brake with Axis ultimates as soon as I did the swap cuz of the faster car
3rd - AP racing 5.1 fluid, GSRs with Carbotech AX6 autocross like compound for SOLO and HPDEs
4th - Ap fluid, GSRs with carbotech Xp8s racing compound b/c AX6 didn't hold up
now I am in the process of going to
5th - either Motul 6.1 or Castrol SRF, ITR front calipers and 11.1 rotors with GSRs out back with Higher torque compound than Xp8s front and staying with XP8 rear
** going with ITR stuff cuz I need bigger rotors due to warping 2 sets of 10.3" rotors and fading the Xp8 compound
A 2450lb car w/driver & full tank, pluss instructor = 2650lbs max has pushed the XP8s over their limit with the GSR heat sink. The Xp8s might hold up with the 11.1" rotors but I'm going to stick with what has worked for the RACERS and go with what has been reccomended to me.. . Xp10s, Hawk Blues, Spec Vrs etc
Happy Brakeing!!!
NEW - 2/6/07 - Just to let people know, I did upgrade to 11" rotors and ITR calipers front - went with Satisfied GS3 gransport pads - more so used in other countries like Canada and so on.. .
Modified by 6spdKEG at 3:25 PM 1/25/2007
Modified by 6spdKEG at 8:45 AM 2/6/2007
The following is a lil more related to HPDE/racing then Autocross.. .
More so, if you are looking for max gains with a big brake kit there is more to it than just slapping on larger rotors and pads. Previous problems with stock setup, Tires, brake pad compound and fluid all need to be considered.. .
If you’re not stopping as fast as you want on.. .
stock calipers >> Stock Rotors >>> Stock like brake fluid (Dot 3)
You should probably go through this in your decision making and also read websites like -
Probably the best site > http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/faqs.shtml
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/tech/index.jsp
Carbotech Brakes - http://www.ctbrakes.com/faqs.html
http://www.cobaltfriction.com/services/
1.) What do I want to do with the car?
**Street Warrior? = How long do you want rotors and pads to last? Most racing type compounds are not going to last that long with daily driving and some of them might not even stop your car that well b/c the pad compound needs to see the proper temps.
**autocross? = you don't need huge brakes here - only adds weight and will "rarely" ever see temps that will warp or fad quality brake components. Spend your money better brake pads, better brake fluid and rebuild your current brakes.. .
**HPDE, racing ? = what weight is your car and what HP? Going to need a compound to stop that weight... What skill level are you at? You don't want a compound that is too aggressive for your experience and style. Don't necessarily listen to me, research what has worked for others and talk with the specialists
2.) What condition is your current brake setup in and what conditions have you seen driving it?
**old fluid? change that first, properly bleed the system and see what the braking feels like.. .
**warped rotors from? Street peeps - did you drive the car real hard and go wash it off at the car wash? you may have warped them there, not on the street. HPDE/race- did you not let your brakes cool down after the track session properly or did you use your E-brake right after racing or drive through a puddle supper cooling the brakes?
** Warped rotors from tracking? you may need an upgrade or you just use your brakes too much ;-) common problem for rookies.. . There are more reasons for warping rotors as well. After a track session look at your rotors.. . are they discolored? Blue maybe? If they are, you are most likely getting them babies nice and cherry!
>> The warping might not be from deformation at all - it might be from uneven brake deposits on your rotors. This means your pads are riding on the highs and lows of these deposits. Your rotors either need to be turned, junked, or try just waiting till your brakes are completely cold, and go do some hard stopping. That might knock the deposits off.. .
** FADING - If fluid is good (not boiling), foot isn't going to the floor & not warping rotors = you probably just need to upgrade your brake pad compound.. .is there a cake of compound on your rotors? Sometimes the compound will be blue or green. Don't misinterpret this as your rotors are getting too hot.. . There should always be a very thin layer of brake compound on your rotors as well. It is needed for proper braking on any car.. . I've scene Vipers and Corvettes using racing brake compounds and their rotors are just caked with pad compound - I ask them if they are fading, they say no. Caked enough that there is cracks in the material while is still sticking to the rotors.. . I mistakenly thought that their rotors were actually cracked!! Stupid me
The above is from reading on sites, talking with brake manufacturers and personal experience
1st - I have gone from a stock 94 EX to a K20 swap
2nd - Dot3 honda fluid, GSR brake with Axis ultimates as soon as I did the swap cuz of the faster car
3rd - AP racing 5.1 fluid, GSRs with Carbotech AX6 autocross like compound for SOLO and HPDEs
4th - Ap fluid, GSRs with carbotech Xp8s racing compound b/c AX6 didn't hold up
now I am in the process of going to
5th - either Motul 6.1 or Castrol SRF, ITR front calipers and 11.1 rotors with GSRs out back with Higher torque compound than Xp8s front and staying with XP8 rear
** going with ITR stuff cuz I need bigger rotors due to warping 2 sets of 10.3" rotors and fading the Xp8 compound
A 2450lb car w/driver & full tank, pluss instructor = 2650lbs max has pushed the XP8s over their limit with the GSR heat sink. The Xp8s might hold up with the 11.1" rotors but I'm going to stick with what has worked for the RACERS and go with what has been reccomended to me.. . Xp10s, Hawk Blues, Spec Vrs etc
Happy Brakeing!!!
NEW - 2/6/07 - Just to let people know, I did upgrade to 11" rotors and ITR calipers front - went with Satisfied GS3 gransport pads - more so used in other countries like Canada and so on.. .
Modified by 6spdKEG at 3:25 PM 1/25/2007
Modified by 6spdKEG at 8:45 AM 2/6/2007
01-26-2007, 05:50 AM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (6spdKEG)
In addition to the good information above, here's what causes a soft pedal (Soft, as in "always soft" not a pedal that gets soft due to overheated brakes.)
Compliance! That's a bad word in braking systems. If *anything* between your foot and the brake rotor expands, or moves in anyway, a squishy pedal will result. I went through a real witch-hunt on my Mini which had a perpetually soft pedal. First I though it was air in the system - nope. Then I suspected the flex-line that I used throughout the system, and replaced it with hard-line - nope.
Then I thought it was the silicon brake fluid (this one was a real bitch - don NOT use silicon brake fluid in a track car.) Anyhow, that wasn't the cause either. Neither were the pedal mounts.
The break in the case was found when I capped off the flex-lines right at the calipers - instant hard pedal. Turns out the front 280ZX calipers were flexing, expanding when I pushed on the pedal! After replacing them with Wilwoods, now the brake pedal is amazing. Now I can dive into turns and not subconciously worry I'm going to die, which can make a huge difference to your lap time!
Compliance! That's a bad word in braking systems. If *anything* between your foot and the brake rotor expands, or moves in anyway, a squishy pedal will result. I went through a real witch-hunt on my Mini which had a perpetually soft pedal. First I though it was air in the system - nope. Then I suspected the flex-line that I used throughout the system, and replaced it with hard-line - nope.
Then I thought it was the silicon brake fluid (this one was a real bitch - don NOT use silicon brake fluid in a track car.) Anyhow, that wasn't the cause either. Neither were the pedal mounts.
The break in the case was found when I capped off the flex-lines right at the calipers - instant hard pedal. Turns out the front 280ZX calipers were flexing, expanding when I pushed on the pedal! After replacing them with Wilwoods, now the brake pedal is amazing. Now I can dive into turns and not subconciously worry I'm going to die, which can make a huge difference to your lap time!
01-26-2007, 10:27 AM
#39
Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (kb58)
Thanks everyone for your information.
I will confirm what has been said. Yes some calipers flex more than others, and a soft pedal can usually be hunted down. Any softness in your brake pedal will affect braking, and usually reduce your feedback. A firm pedal is a big plus for a track race, so you have better modulation.
Thanks 6spdkeg for all that information as well.
Remember all to use DOT3 or DOT4 brake fluid in our cars. Do not use DOT5 brake in any of our stock brake systems. It contains silicates in it and our stock parts don't like it. Unless you analyze and change out every component so that there are no problems, don't do it, and DOT4 fluid should be enough for almost all of us. I have yet to hear of someone with a big brake upgrade that has boiled DOT4 fluid. If you have, PM me!
I will confirm what has been said. Yes some calipers flex more than others, and a soft pedal can usually be hunted down. Any softness in your brake pedal will affect braking, and usually reduce your feedback. A firm pedal is a big plus for a track race, so you have better modulation.
Thanks 6spdkeg for all that information as well.
Remember all to use DOT3 or DOT4 brake fluid in our cars. Do not use DOT5 brake in any of our stock brake systems. It contains silicates in it and our stock parts don't like it. Unless you analyze and change out every component so that there are no problems, don't do it, and DOT4 fluid should be enough for almost all of us. I have yet to hear of someone with a big brake upgrade that has boiled DOT4 fluid. If you have, PM me!
02-05-2007, 08:32 PM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (Redline57)
what happened to the original posting?
i was wondering if the 92 civic si had the same front calipers as a 94 integra?
Modified by all77otorhead at 11:09 PM 2/5/2007
i was wondering if the 92 civic si had the same front calipers as a 94 integra?
Modified by all77otorhead at 11:09 PM 2/5/2007
02-05-2007, 10:18 PM
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (all77otorhead)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by all77otorhead »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what happened to the original posting?
i was wondering if the 92 civic si had the same front calipers as a 94 integra?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope.
i was wondering if the 92 civic si had the same front calipers as a 94 integra?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Nope.
03-03-2007, 09:58 AM
#43
Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (BrakeExpert)
Chart is edited and modified.
***Note the TL Type-S brake setup is not described because the only setup I have proof of took a LOT of custom machining work. I am looking into an easier application. If you are interested in details, contact me.
If anyone has a set of 06 Civic or 83 Civic calipers to sell me for cheap for coming up with new setups, let me know.
***Note the TL Type-S brake setup is not described because the only setup I have proof of took a LOT of custom machining work. I am looking into an easier application. If you are interested in details, contact me.
If anyone has a set of 06 Civic or 83 Civic calipers to sell me for cheap for coming up with new setups, let me know.
03-05-2007, 05:13 PM
#45
Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (bsclywilly)
The 90-01 Integras, ITR, CTR, Legend, TL excluding the Type-S are all a 57mm piston, or about 2.25". The Civic EX takes a 2" piston, and DX hondas with the 9.5" rotors take a 1.75" piston. S2000 front caliper is about a 2" piston.
I'll update later.
I'll update later.
03-17-2007, 03:19 PM
#46
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Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (BrakeExpert)
Bump for good info.
Can you do the same mod to 00 civic si's/integra front calipers like you can with itr calipers to fit on stock 9.4" knuckles and use 10.3" rotors?
I have a set of 00 civic si calipers and if i can just do the same "shaving the caliper bracket down" mod that would be awsome cuz i wont have to buy the integra knuckles.
Can you do the same mod to 00 civic si's/integra front calipers like you can with itr calipers to fit on stock 9.4" knuckles and use 10.3" rotors?
I have a set of 00 civic si calipers and if i can just do the same "shaving the caliper bracket down" mod that would be awsome cuz i wont have to buy the integra knuckles.
03-17-2007, 06:12 PM
#47
Re: Brake setup possibilities for the autocross racers (XkjeldorX)
What do you mean mod? your 00 Si calipers will not bolt onto a DX steering knuckle. That would clear around a 9.9" rotor, which doesnt exist in OEM form. If you want a set of actual ITR calipers and machined brackets, PM me.
