RineRacing

1. When people say that X spring rate is too stiff for street driving can't that be helped by setting shocks to a softer setting? For Example, if you had 550lb/in up front but shocks set to the softest setting, would the ride be that bad?

2. For Integras, what's the benefit to going stiffer in front vs. stiffer in back? (for AutoXing)

Warren

To a degree, you can control ride by softening or stiffening the compression/rebound as appropriate. Nothing dulls it more than adding weight though. If you have a heavy car, you can run stiff springs, and not feel too badly. Likewise, if your car is light, or if one end of the car is light, then stiffening on that end will quickly decrease ride quality.

I prefer to run stiffer suspension in the back of my ITR. Rotates quite a bit better that way. I'm using 400F/600R, which is marginally streetable. Depends on your local roads and highways.

Warren

burn

but, like you said, weight comes into play...so that 400/600 on a gutted itr might feel just fine on a fat boy like my lude.

RineRacing

So, If having a higher rate in the back gives improved rotation, what advantage is there to running with higher rates in the front. I see it often enough that there must be a good reason?

Also, is there a general range of good AutoX spring rates? I have no clue as to setting up a good AutoX suspension setup.

o-man

It is done for safety sake. The average person can't handle a car that is tailhappy, therefore, most aftermarket spring kits have stiffer springs in front. For my CRX, I run 375\500. A little rough on the street, but great for auto-x/track use. You also don't want to turn the shocks too soft. They wont be able to dampen the heavy springs. Tried it on my CRX and the thing would oscillate over big bumps

RineRacing

What I'm trying to figure out is, a good setup for my Integra for AutoXing but I still need to drive it to work and AutoX events (up to 100 mile drives sometimes). I sure don't mind sacraficing ride quality for AutoX performance but I would still like to keep my teeth.

J28S

Depends on what type of car it is. Front wheel drives will have higher spring rates in the rear. Rear wheel drives will have higher spring rates in the front. It all has to do with where the weight is on the car, acceleration, and rotational mass. If you want more clarification, let me know and I'll write you a book.

Me, I have an ITR. For SCCA events I run 600 front, and 800 rear. Track days, I run 800 front, and 1200 rear. Given the same track, I run just over a second faster with the higher spring rates and the tailend of the car sets up PERFECT in every turn.

RineRacing

J28S: Actually, yes I would live more information on spring rates and suspension. The rates you mentioned, are they for road racing? What kind of rates do you drive on the street with?

JinMTVT

ok so given ur experience..
and that the ITR is 20% lighter than the prelude (97+)

what would be a reasonable spring setup to get it tailhappy but still streetable ( without worrying too much about ride quality but i don't wanna have to tighten all the door bolts each week )

from some research i've done lately.. ( lazy research )

i've come with a 600/700 setup ...how does that sound ?
( that's keeping in mind that i'll be upgrading the rear sway bar )

what do u think ?

RineRacing

That sounds quite high but I never have ridden in a car with high spring rates on the street. I have replaced the GSR sway bar with the ITR one.

Most rates that I have heard about for AutoX on this board have been around the 300-400 range.

I guess I should just find some people with Integras with high spring rates and ask for a ride.

J28S

Geratol: After reading everything again, you’re probably going to focus on Auto-x’s and driving the car on the street. If that’s the case, then max around 400F/600R (you could go lower on the rear to maybe 500 or 550 depending on the amount of rotation you want which could also be gained from a good alignment). High spring rates won’t be as helpful at lower speeds, but they are extremely helpful in high-speed turns. Just make sure your shocks can handle higher spring rates (i.e. Koni’s which are re-buildable). As for my car, the car is a trailer queen (track car only). Sorry, don’t have any spring rates for the street. I’ll send you an email explaining spring rates for front vs. rear wheel drive cars.

JimMTVT: You’re on the right track. If you want the rear end to be bit more “happy” then you want between 150 to 200 lb. higher rear spring rates (if not more). The Pro Racing guys use anywhere from 750F (rough track) to 950F (smooth, fast track) and 900R (rough track) to 1400R (smooth, fast track). Me, I’m good where I am.

Warren

Hey J28S, who's that quote by? I love it. Sadly, it's oh so true.

"Racing is an addiction that can only be cured by poverty."

Warren

JinMTVT

i won't go as high as 800+ for my street car that's for sure..
i still wanna be able to go to the race with it
heeheh
( though i don't really care for the quality of the ride on normal streets much ... i'll be getting another smaller car to do most distances on roads)

the only problem i have with the Prelude is taht there isn't a lot of parts avaible for it, and not a lot of documentation or experienced drivers ..so it's pretty hard to get some knowledge..but still can be based on other cars easily
heeh

J28S
is it good to have the tail go loose on most tight curves ?
i'm still not sure about the setting..i know that i want the rear to rotate more than the front ...but the question is how much more
ehhe
cause i don't wanna end up doing conter oversteering in each slalom or small S ... i fear a little having difficulties to get the good setup for my car that would be right on the spot of control loosing oversteer and tailhappy

i mean..it is faster to turn with the tail going little around nah ?
it is pretty hard to predict what the car will do with the sway bar and the springs..

neway i am getting the sway bar first ( rear of course )
i think i'll see how the car reacts compared to stock..and then i'll try some springs to see what i can get from it
ehhe
( i WANT A ****** GO KART )
ahahah
dam i love lat Gs
eheh

( need to find a skidpad to do tests though..)

would revalved konis ( adjust ?? ) be a good idea to get with 500-700 range spring rates ?

also...how do i know wich springs i can use with the konis ?
is there someplace to get diameter of the spring perch of shocks ?
cause i know i can get springs diameter easily from most companies i'm interested in..

and also.. mmm
how can i calculate the good hieght for my car using diff company shocks and springs ? cause if the spring seats on the shocks are placed differently than stock from the top/down of the dampner it changes the actual spring position nah?

eheh
too much questions..so little time ( and no money at all ahha )

J28S

Warren: A buddy of mine sent me an eMail with the quote in it. I asked him where he heard it from, but he couldn't recall. I'm with you, it sums everything up.

JinMTVT: I prefer to have the tail a little loose in turns...the faster the car recovers to a straight line the faster you can get on full throttle without tire resistance. Granted it is nothing like a rear wheel drive car. Warren hit the point right off, "If you have a heavy car, you can run stiff springs, and not feel too badly." Thus the lighter the car, the more you will feel the higher spring rates. Most people use Eibach 2.25" springs, normally 8 inch in front and 7 inch in rear (but for street, 8 inch in rear is fine). Bottom line, higher / stiffer spring rates will help the car handle better, but you will loose some ride comfort. Talk to Grant Lockwood at Raceworks http://www.lockracewrks.com, they have a telephone number on the site. He runs a Prelude (that he bought from Taz) and may be able to answer some of your questions.

fsp31

>>Bottom line, higher / stiffer spring rates will help the car handle better, but you will loose some ride comfort.<<

I understand what you're saying, but I like to think of it a little differently. I think a better way to put it is "high enough spring rates will help the car handle better". A suspension that's set up super-stiff is going to be losing grip on every turn. A better setup would be to have the suspension as soft as possible and still handle "appropriately" for the application (autox in this case). Body roll ain't the enemy. I want a certain amount of weight transfer to the outside tires for increased grip.

If you're looking for a streetable ride, 400/600 may be tolerable, but it's the 2/3 ratio between the front and rear rates that bears a second look. If you don't want to compromise ride quality that much, go with 300/450. Same ratio and similar oversteer/understeer characteristics. Transitions may suffer a little, but only a select group of drivers would actually feel the difference, and a good set of sway bars can virtually eliminate the problem without compromising ride quality (much).

J28S

Very good point! And if you ask 100 people a question, you'll most likely get 100 different answers and most may be correct. What you feel most comfortable with is what you should use, bottom line. When I asked a few guys that I know that race ITRs what spring rates I should use, they all said something different. But they did have one thing in common, they said "the best thing YOU need to do is to get different spring rates and figure out which is the best for you". And that I did. I started at 600F/800R and kept going up. Granted, I put down some cash for the springs, but I found what I am most comfortable with. I could/can change one spring out in just under 20 minutes. So I went to a 3 day track event and changed springs at the end of the day Fri and Sat (used three different spring rates). Recorded my times, and used a video camera. Went home and figured out where I was faster and what I used. After two events, I was set. Good luck!