azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea?
11-04-2006, 09:26 AM
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azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea?
Hey guys,
When i first bought my Mazdaspeed Protege the stock bridgestones were shot, so i had to get new tires. I wanted something that i could get decent grip on for autox but that wouldn't wear out in 10k miles on the street. After some research i decided on the toyo proxes t1r (brand new at the time). I am really happy with the tires but i've been doing more and more events recently and i'm afraid they're gonna wear out quicker than i anticipated.
I am considering getting 2 azenis 615's for the fronts only (obviously keeping the toyos that still have about 60% tread left). On the street, i would put the two wheels with azenis on the rear for daily driving (less wear i assume) and switch them to the fronts for autox.
However would this be a bad idea for autox? I run in D-stock.
I would love to buy an extra set of wheels and tires, but i'm in college and simply can't afford it.
I used to run azenis 215's on my integra and absolutely loved them. I would assume that i would get much improved grip from my toyos even with the 615's only on the front. is this false?
And basically is it worth it or am i just going to suffer for grip in the rear because i would still have toyos. (which aren't too bad at all but they're no azenis)
Any imput would be greatly appreciated.
When i first bought my Mazdaspeed Protege the stock bridgestones were shot, so i had to get new tires. I wanted something that i could get decent grip on for autox but that wouldn't wear out in 10k miles on the street. After some research i decided on the toyo proxes t1r (brand new at the time). I am really happy with the tires but i've been doing more and more events recently and i'm afraid they're gonna wear out quicker than i anticipated.
I am considering getting 2 azenis 615's for the fronts only (obviously keeping the toyos that still have about 60% tread left). On the street, i would put the two wheels with azenis on the rear for daily driving (less wear i assume) and switch them to the fronts for autox.
However would this be a bad idea for autox? I run in D-stock.
I would love to buy an extra set of wheels and tires, but i'm in college and simply can't afford it.
I used to run azenis 215's on my integra and absolutely loved them. I would assume that i would get much improved grip from my toyos even with the 615's only on the front. is this false?
And basically is it worth it or am i just going to suffer for grip in the rear because i would still have toyos. (which aren't too bad at all but they're no azenis)
Any imput would be greatly appreciated.
11-04-2006, 09:32 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
i would rather run all 4 of the same tires than 2 different tires
running azenis solely in the front will induce more oversteer
running azenis solely in the front will induce more oversteer
11-04-2006, 09:39 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (null.)
Well a little more oversteer on a front wheel drive car wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
I would think that if i ran hoosiers or Ra1's on the front and street tires on the rear that would be a bad thing as it would be too much of a difference.
But the toyos aren't THAT bad so i was curious as to if that would be a problem.
Would it induce so much oversteer that the car would be undrivable or very very difficult to drive fast?
I would think that if i ran hoosiers or Ra1's on the front and street tires on the rear that would be a bad thing as it would be too much of a difference.
But the toyos aren't THAT bad so i was curious as to if that would be a problem.
Would it induce so much oversteer that the car would be undrivable or very very difficult to drive fast?
11-04-2006, 11:36 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chris1866 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well a little more oversteer on a front wheel drive car wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
that is driver related, in my opinion. It isn't necessarily true.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
that is driver related, in my opinion. It isn't necessarily true.
11-04-2006, 03:02 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
There's a guy here with a saturn who runs hoosiers up front and stock tires out back. Works GREAT for him, he consistantly posts great times. Of course a large part of that comes down to the driver 
If you're not driving like an *** on the street just rotate your 6 tires around to get the most life out of them, and run whatever is the fastest for auto-x!
(If you are driving hard on the street: slow down ! )
If you're not driving like an *** on the street just rotate your 6 tires around to get the most life out of them, and run whatever is the fastest for auto-x!
(If you are driving hard on the street: slow down !
)
11-04-2006, 07:49 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (Niles)
i definitely don't drive hard on the street...i save that for the autox course.
I only have 4 rims so the azenis will go on two for the fronts during autox and i will switch them to the rears for the street (i assume for daily driving the rears get less wear so.....)
I only have 4 rims so the azenis will go on two for the fronts during autox and i will switch them to the rears for the street (i assume for daily driving the rears get less wear so.....)
11-05-2006, 07:07 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
I wouldn't.
It's a bad idea to run mismatched tires on your car. Sometimes you can get away with it if the tires are very similar to each other, but it's a REALLY bad idea if the tires are drastically different from each other, which is true in this case.
On dry pavement, the Azenis is so much stickier than the T1-R, it isn't even funny. On wet pavement, it's the reverse.
On the track, with the Azenis on the front, your car is going to oversteer big time. The back end is going to want to come around on you because the Toyos won't keep up with the Azenis. If it's wet, though, your car is going to plow straight ahead when you want to turn.
On the street, with the Azenis on the rear, it will be the reverse. Your car will plow straight ahead on dry pavement. When it's wet, the back end will want to come around.
Then again, Darwin would approve - especially when the inevitable crash occurs.
Just autocross on what you've got. You say you're doing more and more events recently. If you're ready for stickier tires and you want to use them to improve your competitiveness, then bite the bullet and buy a used set of wheels for autocross, and get a full set of Azenis (or R comps) for autocross.
Remember this: If something sounds like a REALLY BAD IDEA, maybe you should reconsider instead of doing it.
It's a bad idea to run mismatched tires on your car. Sometimes you can get away with it if the tires are very similar to each other, but it's a REALLY bad idea if the tires are drastically different from each other, which is true in this case.
On dry pavement, the Azenis is so much stickier than the T1-R, it isn't even funny. On wet pavement, it's the reverse.
On the track, with the Azenis on the front, your car is going to oversteer big time. The back end is going to want to come around on you because the Toyos won't keep up with the Azenis. If it's wet, though, your car is going to plow straight ahead when you want to turn.
On the street, with the Azenis on the rear, it will be the reverse. Your car will plow straight ahead on dry pavement. When it's wet, the back end will want to come around.
Then again, Darwin would approve - especially when the inevitable crash occurs.
Just autocross on what you've got. You say you're doing more and more events recently. If you're ready for stickier tires and you want to use them to improve your competitiveness, then bite the bullet and buy a used set of wheels for autocross, and get a full set of Azenis (or R comps) for autocross.
Remember this: If something sounds like a REALLY BAD IDEA, maybe you should reconsider instead of doing it.
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11-05-2006, 10:13 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (nsxtasy)
what you are saying makes sense.
The problem is that right now i can't afford an extra set of wheels. (although that would indeed be ideal).
The problem is that right now i can't afford an extra set of wheels. (although that would indeed be ideal).
11-05-2006, 10:44 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (dvp)
no suspension tuning here-----stock as a rock.
also, would the oversteer on course be a lot of uncontrollable snap-oversteer or would it be managable?
also, would the oversteer on course be a lot of uncontrollable snap-oversteer or would it be managable?
11-05-2006, 10:52 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chris1866 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">would the oversteer on course be a lot of uncontrollable snap-oversteer or would it be managable?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The way you're asking your questions - basically, asking the same question over and over again - it sounds like you already realize that using two Azenis is a bad idea, but you're hoping that someone will tell you otherwise. Sorry, it's still a bad idea.
If you can't afford another set of wheels (or afford to use four Azenis), then just keep using four matched T1-R. When they wear out, get another set, or get something less expensive (e.g. Kumho SPT). Even with those tires for autocross, you'll still be improving your driving skills, and you'll still be having fun.
Once you're out of school and you start earning a living with a little disposable income, you can get an extra set of wheels at that point, and a set (four) of Azenis or R comps.
The way you're asking your questions - basically, asking the same question over and over again - it sounds like you already realize that using two Azenis is a bad idea, but you're hoping that someone will tell you otherwise. Sorry, it's still a bad idea.
If you can't afford another set of wheels (or afford to use four Azenis), then just keep using four matched T1-R. When they wear out, get another set, or get something less expensive (e.g. Kumho SPT). Even with those tires for autocross, you'll still be improving your driving skills, and you'll still be having fun.
Once you're out of school and you start earning a living with a little disposable income, you can get an extra set of wheels at that point, and a set (four) of Azenis or R comps.
11-05-2006, 03:43 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chris1866 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no suspension tuning here-----stock as a rock.
also, would the oversteer on course be a lot of uncontrollable snap-oversteer or would it be managable?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Auh, you CAN tune a BONE stock as a rock suspension significantely. Snap oversteer is hardly ever managable, IME. It is unpredicable.
Regards,
Donnie
also, would the oversteer on course be a lot of uncontrollable snap-oversteer or would it be managable?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Auh, you CAN tune a BONE stock as a rock suspension significantely. Snap oversteer is hardly ever managable, IME. It is unpredicable.
Regards,
Donnie
11-05-2006, 05:59 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (D Jaws II)
Personally I don't see the problem with using the Azenis up front if that's all you have to run.
I personally would rather have oversteer than understeer. Sliding the rear around is more fun than plowing through cones and not having any fun on the course.
Oversteer is more managable than understeer when racing around cones. How much do you spin the T1rs? If not at all or very little, you could prolly get away with runing them on the front if you wanted.
You can play with suspension tuning through your allignment but again, you are driving this car on the street. You don't want drastic camber, caster, toe settings when driving on the streets. If you throw the Azenis out back, I would get some more toe out in the rear.
I had to run 2 205/45/16 Hankook Ventus Rs2s front and 2 205/50/15 BFG g-force sports 320 treadwares out back for 3/4 of a hpde event. I had all 4 ventus but I bent a rim. I definetely wanted more oversteer than understeer so thats why the BFGs went out back. I bumped the rear air pressure down as far as I could take it without rolling the tires over too much. This helped out. I also took a rear strut tower bar off as well. It got rid of some oversteer and overall I think I defenitely got some good lap times in and had a butt load of fun.
Do I condone 2 different tires, no. Can you manage it, yes. Why do people run offset tire sizes? More grip where you need it correct? You need the azenis up front to give you the grip.
You should really only have snap oversteer if you have some wicked bump steer problems I think or in the case you are making some wicked un smooth turn transitions or the course you are on is pretty rough.
I personally would rather have oversteer than understeer. Sliding the rear around is more fun than plowing through cones and not having any fun on the course.
Oversteer is more managable than understeer when racing around cones. How much do you spin the T1rs? If not at all or very little, you could prolly get away with runing them on the front if you wanted.
You can play with suspension tuning through your allignment but again, you are driving this car on the street. You don't want drastic camber, caster, toe settings when driving on the streets. If you throw the Azenis out back, I would get some more toe out in the rear.
I had to run 2 205/45/16 Hankook Ventus Rs2s front and 2 205/50/15 BFG g-force sports 320 treadwares out back for 3/4 of a hpde event. I had all 4 ventus but I bent a rim. I definetely wanted more oversteer than understeer so thats why the BFGs went out back. I bumped the rear air pressure down as far as I could take it without rolling the tires over too much. This helped out. I also took a rear strut tower bar off as well. It got rid of some oversteer and overall I think I defenitely got some good lap times in and had a butt load of fun.
Do I condone 2 different tires, no. Can you manage it, yes. Why do people run offset tire sizes? More grip where you need it correct? You need the azenis up front to give you the grip.
You should really only have snap oversteer if you have some wicked bump steer problems I think or in the case you are making some wicked un smooth turn transitions or the course you are on is pretty rough.
11-06-2006, 12:42 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
Short answer: not a great idea.
It's not a crazy idea, since it's not unlike runnning staggered sizes front to rear or different pressures front to rear. But like nsxtasy said, the scary part is having tires that react differently to the same change.
I don't know your wheel and tire sizes, but you might be able to get dedicated autox tires cheaper than you think. First, find junkyard wheels that are the same size as your stock wheels. For my integra I can get used mazda millenia or 929 wheels for $100-$150 a set (and they're lighter than stock). Next, find used race tires. For me, the Toyo RA1 in 205-50-15 works great, and you can get them at a roadcourse (or in the sticky thread at the top of this forum) for $10 or less, and they last pretty much forever. They're not the fastest r-tire, but they're r-tires.
HTH
It's not a crazy idea, since it's not unlike runnning staggered sizes front to rear or different pressures front to rear. But like nsxtasy said, the scary part is having tires that react differently to the same change.
I don't know your wheel and tire sizes, but you might be able to get dedicated autox tires cheaper than you think. First, find junkyard wheels that are the same size as your stock wheels. For my integra I can get used mazda millenia or 929 wheels for $100-$150 a set (and they're lighter than stock). Next, find used race tires. For me, the Toyo RA1 in 205-50-15 works great, and you can get them at a roadcourse (or in the sticky thread at the top of this forum) for $10 or less, and they last pretty much forever. They're not the fastest r-tire, but they're r-tires.
HTH
11-06-2006, 12:56 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by chris1866 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what you are saying makes sense.
The problem is that right now i can't afford an extra set of wheels. (although that would indeed be ideal).</TD></TR></TABLE>
I picked up a set of 4 16x7 Rota Slipstreams with 205/40-16 RT-615 Azenis for $840, mounted and balanced. Compared to the cost of daily driving the RT-615s, it was worth it to me. My GSR took a brand new set of Azenis to 40% tread in 5k street miles, 1 HPDE, and 2 autocrosses. The next set, have lasted a full year of auto-x and HPDE duty, and I keep a set of Toyo Proxes 4 on the car for daily use. Over time, I think a cheap set of wheels and Azenis work out to be cheaper than having to replace the Azenis every 6 - 8 months.
The problem is that right now i can't afford an extra set of wheels. (although that would indeed be ideal).</TD></TR></TABLE>
I picked up a set of 4 16x7 Rota Slipstreams with 205/40-16 RT-615 Azenis for $840, mounted and balanced. Compared to the cost of daily driving the RT-615s, it was worth it to me. My GSR took a brand new set of Azenis to 40% tread in 5k street miles, 1 HPDE, and 2 autocrosses. The next set, have lasted a full year of auto-x and HPDE duty, and I keep a set of Toyo Proxes 4 on the car for daily use. Over time, I think a cheap set of wheels and Azenis work out to be cheaper than having to replace the Azenis every 6 - 8 months.
11-06-2006, 01:41 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (TunerN00b)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TunerN00b »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I picked up a set of 4 16x7 Rota Slipstreams with 205/40-16 RT-615 Azenis for $840
.
.
.
My GSR</TD></TR></TABLE>
Get the 205/40-16 Azenis for CRXs, del sols, and pre-'96 Civics.
Get the 215/45-16 Azenis for Integras and '97-00 Civics.
.
.
.
My GSR</TD></TR></TABLE>
Get the 205/40-16 Azenis for CRXs, del sols, and pre-'96 Civics.
Get the 215/45-16 Azenis for Integras and '97-00 Civics.
11-07-2006, 09:47 AM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (nsxtasy)
I think i have found a solution.
My friend has an rsx and we do most of our autoxes together. So we're probablly going to get a set of rims with azenis that fit both cars from edgeracing.
$658 shipped for 16x7's with azenis mounted and balanced.
can't go wrong there.
(now i just gotta convince him that he really really really needs some stickier tires
)
My friend has an rsx and we do most of our autoxes together. So we're probablly going to get a set of rims with azenis that fit both cars from edgeracing.
$658 shipped for 16x7's with azenis mounted and balanced.
can't go wrong there.
(now i just gotta convince him that he really really really needs some stickier tires
)
11-07-2006, 12:19 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (chris1866)
Are you sure that both cars can use the same wheels? Same wheel size (16 is smaller than your stock 17's), bolt pattern, center bore diameter, offset, etc? What about tire size? (His RSX needs the 225/50-16 size Azenis.)
11-07-2006, 12:44 PM
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Re: azenis 615 on front, toyo t1r on rear bad idea? (nsxtasy)
I've scene some huge Kumhos Victoracers on a Mazda protoge wagon. I think they were 225 and we all know that kumho runs large.
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