6ghatch

I've been talking to my cage builder and he mentioned that gusseting the cage or the more points you connect the cage to the car for stiffness, the more life you are taking away from the chassis. Is this true? It would seem to me the stiffer you make the car from multiple connection from the cage to car, the less strain on the cars chassis.

krshultz

I unfortunately don't know the answer, but can kind of see the argument. You take a nicely welded, stiff-as-hell structure (the cage) and put it inside something that was mass produced (the tub), and the outer extremeties of the tub, which don't benefit from the cage, suffer. I can kind of see that theoretically.

My gut reaction is that there's so many sedan-based race cars out there that are still viable...even after spending years on the track...that this problem is much more theoretical than real-world.

And if nothing else, I don't think gussets will make or break a tub's longevitiy. I'd bet on cage design and the history of the car before gussets.

Anyone else care to comment? I am NOT an expert.

infinatenexus

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6ghatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I've been talking to my cage builder and he mentioned that gusseting the cage or the more points you connect the cage to the car for stiffness, the more life you are taking away from the chassis. Is this true? It would seem to me the stiffer you make the car from multiple connection from the cage to car, the less strain on the cars chassis.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I think your "cage builder" is a little confused.

CagedRuss

Roll bar gussets stiffen up the cage to protect the driver and protect the chassis. When a customer of mine comes in and asked for gussets, I am more than happy to oblige him. It is safer, and also raises the overall cost of the cage, makes me happy for 2 reasons. Racecars have a shelf life of unknown time. Some cars last 40 or more years, some the first time they hit the track. Play the odds, get the gussets. I would hate to hear you were hurt because a cage deformed or came apart because the builder was trying to give the chassis a longer life.

Flex and wrecks are your chassis worst enemy!!

Knestis

I have yet to see a shell "wear out" in road racing use, although I have heard of localized stress failures on NEONs when cages are added and they get raced.

K

carl_aka_carlos

chris albin has something like 300 log-booked races on his ITB (I think) VW

travis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have yet to see a shell "wear out" in road racing use</TD></TR></TABLE>

Just keep adding more gussets

"chassis seems to be flexing here...time to tack it to the cage!"

Steve91

Here's some pictures of my cage showing the attachment of the cage to the body. (The sheet panels with the punch holes in them)

CagedRuss

What class are you running this car? We are not allowed to add stiffening plates, counts as attaching points!

Steve91

This cage was built with Honda Challenge specs in mind. 2004 HC rules are okay with cage stiffening from what I have read.

civicrr

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Steve91 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This cage was built with Honda Challenge specs in mind. 2004 HC rules are okay with cage stiffening from what I have read.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yep. Legal for HC. You will need to add 30lbs to your min. weight.

h22mark

How much did that cost to put in your car? Also did you put your car in a acid bath to get all the interior glue and adhesives out?

Steve91

The cage with all the bells and whistles (gague pod, tach mount, window net) was about $2000. I removed the tar the old fashioned way (Two chistles, two hammers, a good friend, and a 6-pack or two). Its really not that hard to do, just a bit time consuming. Having a friend help makes a juge difference. The bad part was I had to help him do his car a month later

6ghatch

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Steve91 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">This cage was built with Honda Challenge specs in mind. 2004 HC rules are okay with cage stiffening from what I have read.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Aren't you supposed to keep the factory dash, heater core, ect....

krshultz

If I had to guess, the dash is going back in after the cage is done. That crossbar would not be possible otherwise.

Steve91

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 6ghatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Aren't you supposed to keep the factory dash, heater core, ect....</TD></TR></TABLE>

2003 Honda Challenge rules section 9.6(c) "Heater hoses, clamps and heater control valves may be added, substituted or removed"

9.6(d) Heater cores may be removed or plugged

9.7(a) All heating ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) components may be removed.

I'm not planning to put the dash back in, but will if required. I can't find anything in the rules specific to the dashboard.

Tyson

13.0 Vehicle Interior
c) Factory dashboard must remain intact but may be modified to accomodate roll cage.


on the subject of rollcage stiffening reducing chassis life, its not the first time ive read this, and i think i read it in an actual racecar prep book (i could be wrong, ive read too many) but i think think its all that important and critical. if your goal is to stiffen the chassis for rigidity and safety, i wouldnt let chassis lifetimes worry you. but then again, dont be surprised if a crossmember ends up cracking either.

BrianZ

From the HC rules :

If these rules do not expressly state a modification is allowed, it is prohibited.

4.9 Roll Cage
All cage requirements found in the NASA CCR must be met except for the following:
1) Any number of mounting points may be used.
2) Any number of tubes may be used, even for chassis stiffening.
3) Any size mounting plate may be used but must conform to material and minimum specification in NASA CCR.
4) Two (2) forward cage braces per side (total of four) may pass through the firewall and connect at no more than two points in the engine compartment (i.e. strut tower or frame).
5) Tubes may be welded at any contact point, or even be “seam welded.” If modification number 4 or 5 above is utilized, an additional 30lb weight penalty will apply. Any tubes that are added shall be inspected for safety reasons. Any tube deemed to be a hazard to the driver must be removed.

from the Nasa CCR :

15.5.2 Intent
Chassis stiffening is a side benefit of a good roll cage system, but it is not the intent of these rules. Parts of the cage deemed by the Chief Scrutineer, to serve no practical purpose other than chassis stiffening may be considered in violation of the intent of these rules (Note: Some class rules allow for chassis stiffening.). The Chief Scrutineer may order the removal of said parts, or require that the vehicle owner redesign, reconstruct, and re-certify the roll cage if warranted. The removal or redesign of the cage, whole or in part, to comply with these rules, does not imply that penalties will not be issued for violating the intent of these rules.


If i was you, I would talk to your local chapters group leader and even a local tech station. from what I have read, that is not legal

h22mark

Hey how about the doors, was that done yourself or did you pay someone to make it and put in?

Steve91

I did the door panels myself. Very easy. I first made a template out of cardboard. I then had a local metal supplier cut the 0.032" aluminum sheet to the proper size rectangle. All I had to do was cut some round corners, drill a 1/2" hole for the window crank, and cut out the spot for the door handle. Total cost was about $45 for both doors.

h22mark

Cool, thanks for the info. How much weight do you think you took off?, because I have a Prelude and they have steel door bars to protect the driver from getting hurt do have those and did you take them out? Oh yeah I am still building my track car but still drive it on the road, just worried some jerk that doesn't know how to drive might T-bone me. What do you think if I took those bars out? Sorry this might not make sense I think I'm getting a cold .

civicrr

Cage is legal.

Dash pad needs to go in.

Steve91

Weight savings is maybe 10lbs per door. This includes the door panel and the seat belt retractors. I leave the factory door braces in and I suggest you do the same.

BrianZ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicrr &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cage is legal.

Dash pad needs to go in.</TD></TR></TABLE>

well if you say so.. I guess it is..

I know what I'm going this weekend!

civicrr

How is the car coming Brian? The season starts soon!