Todd00

I probably don't need to explain why the ITR and GSR become very equal when in a street prepared class, so does anyone, like me, think the ITR is waaaaay outclassed in CSP and should be moved into DSP? The ITR and DSP is so much a better fit, even moreso now that the ITRs will be running against the ACR neons next year in the stock levels.

The ITR still may not be a Fiat beater in DSP, but isn't it about time that class was shaken up a bit? After all, we get screwed in the STS category, even though the Subaru and SE-R are allowed in. And outside of stock, the ITR just isn't competitive. SM is turning into a big-buck (and big block motor) class, so in a year or so that won't be any fun.

I have my own opinions on the misdirection of SM, but for now I'll keep the topic focused--how do we go about getting the ITR in DSP, like I think it should be. You are welcome to share your $.02 either way.

Ricehornet

took SCCA how long to get to moving the ITR out of GS..even though all the praises and shiznit the ITR gets for being so and so better than a GSR, yet still in the same stock class

slowSER

The problem is that nobody has really built up a Type R to run Street Prepared at the national level, so the SCCA will probably dismiss the suggestion based on "competition potential." If a decent driver does all the bells and whistles on a Type R, runs CSP and gets his/her *** kicked at the national SCCA events, then the SCCA would probably move it.

Mike Neary has been doing pretty good in his GSR running DSP, but his car isn't even prepped to the limit (a little too heavy with stock seats and AC -- get rid of that stuff, Mike! ).

Letters are cheap, though, so it wouldn't hurt to write. Even if they say "no," it might put them on alert to see how Type R's are faring in SP.

p.s. SE-R's were allowed in STS 'cause the stock VLSD sucks ***.

Crosser

Yeah Pat, keep trying to convince us that the stock VLSD's in the SE-R suck. We beleive you. Hahaha. Actually, they do suck, I just like giving Pat a hard time. (This is a Guiness BTW Pat, in your honor)

As for the ITR being moved to DSP, I agree that it is outclassed in CSP, but Pat is correct. You will have trouble convincing the SCCA board without hard National level evidence to back it up. You are correct though the playing field between the ITR and GSR become about even in SP. I would still give the ITR the nod between the two of them fully prepared.

But like Pat said, it can't hurt to write letters. Until then keep preparing your car and running CSP. It will only give you more evidence to show the board.

Good Luck,
Eric Carman
CSP CRX, ITR Killer

typer_801

I'm completely in favor of petitioning the SEB to move the TypeR to DSP. It's way outclassed right now in CSP. Way to heavy despite the significant hp advantage it has. Think about it, and ITR in DSP trim would weigh no less than 2400 lbs and a current CSP CRX weighs in at 1600lbs. That's an 800 lb difference. Even with twice the hp, we couldn't get enough tire on the ground to make up for the weight difference.

It completely makes more sense to put the TypeR in DSP and let it compete against the GS-R's. First of all, the two biggest mods which makes the TypeR more competitive than the GS-R in GS can be changed (LSD & suspension). The only items left than are potential advantages include larger brakes, head (inc. cams), intake, & tb. By having the cars on the same line in DSP all those mods are tranferrable to the GS-R too, so the cars are effectively equal.

It's a no brainer to me and would allow some of us contemplating moving to a SP or SM class a place where we might actually be competitive. Just my $.02

Please respond with your concerns.

typer_801

Another thought just popped into my head too. The SEB is looking at the current class structure and is trying to get more current cars in them SP classes. Right now a lot of the class winning cars are rather old with ESP being the exception. Moving the ITR to DSP also helps them accomplish the goal of bringing in newer cars to the SP classes too, which is a very good thing IMO. Again, just my $.02

slowSER

Just one example, this year's SCCA National Tour in Meridian, Miss.:
http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/na...n/results.html

Shawn Whipple won G Stock in an Integra Type R. Overall time was a 94.360.

Steve Hoelscher won DSP in a Fiat X 1/9 with a 93.218. Hoelscher has won the DSP national championship 2-3 years in a row. I don't think he has even lost at a national SCCA autocross for quite some time.

Shawn was only 1.1 seconds behind the fastest DSP in the country in a STOCK Type R! DSP and GS ran the same heats, so there wasn't a factor with weather conditions.

Gman96gsr

Todd,

Does your interest in DSP have anything to do with a particular Talon in SM?

slowSER

I've said it before and I'll say it again -- Nissan VLSD = box of jello.

Todd00

No, I can get those talons in SM (at least the ones I've ran against)--I'm not too worried about that. It's the Supras, Camaros and Mustangs that I am worried about in SM. That class is going to have some serious issues in a few years and the intention of the class (FWD honda's with motor swaps, turbos, etc.) will be a thing of the past and the big HP, big rubbered RWD and AWD cars will make those cars very non-competitive.

Anyway, the ITR is a logical fit for DSP. The Fiat should probably be in CSP anyway due to weight.

What upsets me is that a GSR/LS/GS Integra effectively becomes more competitive when stepping up a class. I know a lot of ITR guys that don't want to run in GS forever and they don't want to take the punishment when they step up a class. a 2400lb car will never be competitive against a 1700lb car in a SP class.

If anyone wants to pen a letter and show some proof and justifications, I'll endorse it. I've only been doing this for a year or two, so someone with more SCCA/autox experience should probably do it.

typer_801

I see where your going and agree to a point that we *may* be "upping the bar" in DSP if ITR's are added to the mix, but why aren't they any GS-R's any closer? The GS-R is not a bad car and in DSP trim should definitely be faster than an ITR and I don't see any!

Results as you posted too can be taken with a grain of salt. Look at the Texas tour, DSP in a non-Fiat was 7 seconds faster than GS. I could argue the ITR would fit in DSP without any trouble whatsoever. IMO the TypeR in GS and Fiat in DSP are cars which prefer vastly different courses. I'm not sure what Meridian was like, but if it's like most I read about, it was pretty fast which most assuredly gives advantage to the R. More technical courses with slower speeds and more transition will favor and SP car because it has more tire, less weight, etc. It also helps them because they dont' have the horsepower of the R.

I just don't see much of an advantage of the ITR over the GS-R in Sp trim that justifies putting them in seperate classes and still think they should be lumped together. The GS-R guys have to like this too, because it opens up other mods like brakes, cams, etc. that they don't already have any flexibility on. More thoughts?

Gman96gsr

Actually, I posted just in case you were concerned and to tell you not to sweat it. Guess I'd be preaching to the choir.

Anyway, I never considered Camaros & Mustangs. Now that you mention it, how come we haven't seen any yet (considering how many there are at the OVR events in other classes)?

Todd00

Anyway, I never considered Camaros & Mustangs. Now that you mention it, how come we haven't seen any yet (considering how many there are at the OVR events in other classes)?

I have yet to see a decently developed car like that at OVR that would fit in. But what scares me about SM--take your fastest ESP car--add as many motor and suspension enhancements as you can/want--and you'll have one killer car with a pricetag that would make your jaw drop. And you *know* someone is going to do this as soon as SM becomes a legit class to the SCCA (which I see happening).

*****

And I agree--the GSR guys should like the fact that the ITR would be booted into DSP. It would allow them to use the ITR brakes, rear LCAs (which would open up whole new suspenion options for them), etc. Look at the cars in CSP and in DSP and tell me where the ITR logically fits.

slowSER

Some nobody (sorry Shawn, just paraphrasing what Goeke said ) in a stock Type R is 1.1 seconds off the fastest DSP car on the planet, and that should be taken with a grain of salt?

At the Texas Tour, what was the quality of the G Stock drivers? Any of them ever win a national championship? A National Tour event? Pro Solo? (Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I haven't won any of those either. )And the guy who won DSP in Texas was slower than Shawn at Meridian.

I have nothing in this fight, but until somebody preps a Type R to the limit and runs CSP at some national events, it's going to be tough convincing anyone that Type R's belong in DSP. You'd probably have an easier time convincing the SCCA that newer Civic Si's don't belong in CSP.

It would "open up mods" for the GS-R guys ONLY if the Type R and the GS-R were listed on the same line of the rule book. If they're listed seperately -- even if they are in the same class -- GS-R guys can't put on Type R brakes or cams. Heck, they probably wouldn't be able to do just cams if they were on the same line -- they would have to swap in an entire Type R engine.

typer_801

Edwin Martens was 2nd after Day 1 of GS competition at Nats last year in a car traditionally thought to be non-competitive in the class. I'll concede he's not the pinnacle of GS drivers, but he has shown he is fast! And he did only finish .081 seconds and one place behind Shawn at Nats (11th vs. 10th), so I wouldn't dismiss him so easily.

And really the point I'm trying to make is that the TypeR's are so very similar to the GS-R's in SP trim that (especially if listed on the same line) that it hard to argue it has an advantage. See where I'm going?

I'm not disputing that a properly prepped and driven GS-R or ITR will run away with the class, because I think they could, I'm just saying the ITR and GS-R are so similar why class them differently in SP, yet they are lumped together in Stock class where they have many more differences which gave the ITR an upperhand.

Todd00

Ok, does the SER run in DSP or something

A DSP GSR should be faster than a GS ITR, period. The R's advantages show up moreso on a roadcourse than it does an autox course. Let's look at those in a SP class, assuming that the GSR will be listed seperately frm the ITR:

ITR vs GSR, SP--

1) Horsepower. The ITR makes its horsepower advantage over the GSR only in the last 1500 rpms. How often are 8500 rpm motors at or near their redline in an autox event? Plus, this HP advantake that the ITR has over the GSR stock will start to get closer as intakes, exhausts, headers, etc are added. Remember how good the ITR stuff is and how bad it is on the GSR in factory trim.
2) Torque. The GSR makes, and will make in SP trim, *more* torque than the ITR up until about 6500rpms. That's right, the GSR makes more torque because of the dual-stage intake manifold.
3) Suspension. Realistically, this is an even playing field in SP trim.
4) Chassis. Yeah, the ITR chassis is stuiffer and it has better bushings from the factory, but bushings can be replaced and a cage will equal the two chassis' out. The chassis advantage will only come in play on a roadcourse.
5) Wheels and tires. The 5 bolt ITR is stronger, but again, this is autox Wheels and tires are equal.
6) Interior. No advantage here.
7) gearing. LSD is a must in a SP car. equal here. The ITR has shorter gearing stock, but the GSR torque advantage should help this out.

I will say that the ITR will have slight advantages that Honda has engineered in over the GSR (chassis and motorwork), but not enough to make it light years ahead. The ITR was built for the roadcourse, period. If we were classing with that in mind, then yes, the ITR is superior. But low speed 1-2-3 gear autox with 180 degree turns, the ITR won't be able to shine like it was intended to.

And I'll say it again--even a fully prepped ITR won't even be within a few seconds of the CSP national champion CRX/Miata. No one has tried to prep an ITR for CSP because they know it will be futile.

donkeypunch

So basically what you are saying is the 99-00 SI is better than the type R? They are in CSP too. Wanna move to a slower class? You can't remove any weight other than spare tire, jack, other not bolted down stuff. So weight should not be an issue. Just curious as to why all the fuss, unless you guys are getting slaughtered, and are seeing quicker times coming from another class. After all, the GSR and Type R are the same car, why not put them in the same class....

donkeypunch

So basically what you are saying is the 99-00 SI is better than the type R? They are in CSP too. Wanna move to a slower class? You can't remove any weight other than spare tire, jack, other not bolted down stuff. So weight should not be an issue. Just curious as to why all the fuss, unless you guys are getting slaughtered, and are seeing quicker times coming from another class. After all, the GSR and Type R are the same car, why not put them in the same class....

typer_801

Hell, the Civic Si has even less business in CSP than the TypeR does! It should definitely be moved. The ITR's....well, that's needs discussing.

slowSER

Yes, but right now my primary autocrossing concern isn't how well my SE-R will fare in DSP, so that's why I don't care where the Type R ends up. I'm more concerned about Camaro SS's and Pontiac WS6's ending up in FS rather than some Torqueless Wonder ending up in DSP.

Todd00

Yeah, 99-00 Si is even moreso outgunned in CSP. I'd like to know the logic behind that decision, especially when the GSR was moved to DSP and the Si remained.

As for being torqueless...why does everyone think that no torque = slow car? Wait, it's just the Domestic and a handful of Nissan/Toyota guys that believe this

madhatter

As a GS-R driver currently competing in DSP, I am currently getting my *** handed to me by the Fiats, unless they have a mechanical. There is no way they should be classed in DSP. There is also no way that the Si should be in CSP. I say this, because I feel that SCCA's classification is flawed in more than one case.
The ITR, on the other hand, is a bit of a mixed bag. There are no fully prepped ITRs running in CSP, so who can say? But I will tell you right now that with my current state of preparation, if I slap a diff in, I will not be as fast as an R. Period. Brakes, chasis, power and weight are all much better on an R out of the box, and the inherent disadvantages in the GS-R (sunroof, chasis flex, etc) are not compensated for within upgrade allowances. We are down 25 horsepower to the R. What bolt on is going to equalize that? Head swaps, ecu upgrades, and the like are not legal for other cars not in the modified category as far as I know. (I could be wrong there) And what hybrid is going to be classed as an SP car? None.
Bottom line. The R would render the GS-R even further uncompetitive. "So go buy an R." One problem, limited production. If I wanted to be competitive, I would have to go buy one. Can't, sorry. Out of production and only a handful floating about. (Hmm, kinda like a Fiat, too) It's not like any of this matters, since the Fiat is still in DSP, but an intriguing thought. I'm sure the SCCA classed it that way for a reason that us mere mortals could not possibly understand.<shrug>
FWIW, I am not going to be competitive in the Nats. any time soon, and would welcome the competition from something other than a Fiat.

**Fix It Again Tony!**

maxQ

Unfortunately, you can count Toyota out on this one now, too. They have their own Torqueless Wonder; I'm afraid Nissan is the only one holding up the "Japanese Torque Bastion".

Speaking of the GT-S, is it classed in DSP with the GS-R? It would seem to me, that given the existence of a VVTL-i controller, it will be EXTREMELY competitive with the GS-R...

Andy

madhatter

Fledgling aftermarket, still sorting those cars out for the most part. But, yes, very fast if their owners bring them to the table in something other than STS.

RacerMike

<my $.02>
RacerMike's 2001 National's prediction: DSP will NOT be won by a Fiat.

Even though my car is not fully prepped I think I can be competitive with Hoelscher (and I'll find out in Peru), but even if I'm not, Mark Daddio is going to be nearly impossible to beat in his DSP Neon this year (and I'll find out AGAIN at Ayer). Joe Graves would have been good DSP competition too in his Escort GT but he's been reclassed to FSP to whip up on the VWs. It is really going to come down to the course designs; a tight, low speed course is going to favor the light Fiat and hamper the torque retarded GS-R everytime; a wide open course will favor the Integra and BMWs; something in the middle will be very interesting.

I agree, the SP classing structure needs to be looked at. The Fiat's don't belong in DSP and after they get whipped on this year at Nationals they'll cry and be reclassed. As for what does belong in DSP, I say bring on the Type-R, Civic Si and bring back the Escort GT!!!

</my $.02>

Mike