Honestly, I'd prefer more camber, but am still daily driving the car and need the suspension travel for the street.

Yes. If I could get more camber while preserving the suspension travel, I would try that next. I just haven't been brave enough to bend my knuckles further.

Keep in mind that "optimal" alignment settings will be different for different ride heights and spring rates.

I'm running relatively softer spring rates, which mandates a relatively higher ride height and allows more body roll. Due to this, I have more need of static camber than someone running stiffer and lower, which is why I tried what many would consider "excessive" camber and caster values. The car felt better, but went slower. And that's when I learned to trust the clock more than driver feedback.

 

Ahh ok that makes sense. You gain camber with body roll.

I run 4deg caster and -2.5deg camber front with -2deg camber rear.
Zero toe all around.
11k front
16k rear
275/35/15 Hoosier front
225/45/15 Hoosier rear

I like the feel of this much caster but I'm not sure why.

It's still within Honda specs (albeit the limit).

 

I guess it's time to chime in here with a new product release-
Working with PCI over the last year we have continued to develop my "Kiwi Signature Series" of Race tested and race proven suspension and performance components.
Some may know that we began by distributing the popular Taiwaneese HardRace products. However due to constant problems having changes or modifications carried out to our specifications, we finally decided to be politically correct and make our own stuff here in the USA.
Working with Brian of PCI we have taken a product that worked well, and modified and refined it to be even better! And yes Chris, it's all made here in the USA.
We were the first to introduce the offset Spherical Bearings and then the even more effective and longer lasting Bronze Bushings for the Honda top control arm Caster and Camber adjustment.

These new tubular Top Arms have been re designed in shape for the DC2 Integra and the EG Civic to allow the absolute maximum in travel, without the arm hitting the inner strut tower. as well as allowing the absolute maximum upward travel of the suspension arm because of our low profile Sliding Ball Joint.
Using the optional offset Bronze bushings already pre pressed into the Eyebolts you can obtain the maximum amout of static negative caster you desire. The use of the bronze bushings allows the load on the top locating points to be carried by the full width of the bushing instead of 7/16" to 1/2" of a spherical bearing which will wear out in no time. The Caster gain can be increased even further with the use of our offset lower control arm bushings and Compliance Bushings.

Contrary to some of the coments on this thread, Although the offset spherical bearings are fine, I doubt that they will work with the OEM Style Pressed steel arms- They are so wide and bulky they will hit on the inside of the Strut tower long before any apreciable amount of caster is gained.
We will be releasing the New EF/CRX Upper arms in the next couple of weeks.
I have posted some photos to show the quality of the tig welding and general finish of these arms, a far cry from some of the Agricultural style fabrication seen on some of the foriegn brands.

Kiwi






Two "o" rings on the steel center pin seal in the lubricant on the Bronze bushings and keep dirt out.

 

Sick products as always kiwi!


Here's my old thread on caster and upper A arms as promised:

https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...ghlight=Caster

 

Kiwi you've gained my attention on these, any idea as to what when we can expect to see an EK version? Also what type of maximum caster gain are we looking at?

 

At the risk of kind of coming out of nowhere here:

I've been racing a BA4 prelude for about a decade now (mostly autocross, but also track days and climbing the SCCA TT ladder). These cars have adjustable caster from the factory, so I've gotten to play around with that a bit.

I've found that the factory caster settings (2 deg) both feel best and are fastest. Cranking the caster up (I've had it up to 4 deg) I've found adds what feels like too much jacking force on the outside wheels, especially if you have a stiff setup. The camber gain on Honda front suspensions seems to negate the need for the extra caster.

 

As you can see by the photos, it's an easy thing to change the inner mounting points of the arms to suit the EK Style of bearing. However, the EK Style bearing housing does not give the same ability to increase the Caster Although there will be some static caster built into the EK Design. We will get them started immediately after we get the New EF/CRX Arms into Production.
It's all a matter of time and money... It's not cheap to get set up to do a production run of quality suspension components, you can't just do one or two sets, and they have to be right or you have wasted your efforts.

Anything new we make will appear here for sure...

Kiwi

 

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :-P

That is a laugh riot. A friction bearing is now superior to a teflon lined bearing? You are delusional. It is a hell of a lot cheaper and allows an easy way to offset for more camber. That is true enough. On an SCCA IT car with an A arm suspension you are pretty much stuck using an old fashioned bronze bushing (friction bearing) because you aren't allowed to use aftermarket arms for camber adjustment. But no one with a brain cell in their head has ever chosen a friction bearing over a quality Aurora or NHBB spherical in a fairly low load application like an EG/DC UCA. But whatever, spout your crap and laugh all the way to the bank. I know that you do. :golfclap:
Lies. I have customers running my earliest parts since 2009 and not one has replaced a bearing yet. Not any customer. But I don't use Chinese/Taiwanese bearings so there is that.

More than 2 or 3 degrees of caster on our cars is pointless. Hell, I didn't even put my caster offset spacers on my site yet because I don't know that it really yields all that much benefit. But someone has to sell **** to hard parkers. Have fun with that sport.

 

Completely understand the cost and time put into producing a part. Just wasn't sure if one was going to be on the drawing board in the immediate future. This reply answers that! I look forward to it's development, which will give me time to save up some dough for one.

 

Someone whose math I generally trust said that 6 degrees of caster was good for -1 degree of camber at 10 degrees of steering angle. I'm pretty sure I saw that much or so on the last RTR TSX I looked at. Also, somebody else with a wealth of experience in SLA FWD kaas like Honda/Acura's said that given the freedom he'd run as much as he could, up to around 7 degrees.

So there's one fact, and two representations of reasonably well informed opinion. Against That we can weigh how well some fwd cars work with very little caster - very well. If we think things thru the basics we can see some why. Sure we all know, and were recently reminded in RCE or RT, that a cambered tire is that much more inclined to turn in the direction of it's inclination. Great. We got some of that. We can control that thru a variety of means. There's some point of diminishing returns.

There's also the dynamic weight jacking thing. It looks like a no brainer on turn in. Gimme some of that. But what about when I'm taking lock off? Does it make the transients more or less stable and linear?

Did you ever drive a heavy truck - the big ones that run negative caster? You felt that over center feel thru the wheel? That's what zero feels like on my car. Swap the arms to get 3 and I don't get that creepy feeling. Not sure about the cost/benefit ratio of going further - but I know the numerator gets bigger.

Scott, who is glad this thread happened, it's forcing me to do something I should do...

 

I have seen a lot of broken axles on cars like ours running 4 degrees or more. Pointless was a poor choice of wording though. I think point of diminishing returns or trading longevity/reliability for minimal gain would be a better way of putting it as I think you touched on Scott.

 

I am not sure, but I am willing to test it out. As my car only has just +2 degrees caster and the feeling i get on corner exit isn't there. Feels as if there is no caster at all because the wheel doesn't have that self-correcting nature about it. Which is what I am trying to obtain.

 

I don't know that I've ever driven a front wheel drive car that had that. More caster puts the centroid of the contact patch farther behind the intersection of the steering axis with the ground plane, and pushing forward to whichever side of it the steering angle and wheel offset have instantaneously put it, in and of itself not the answer you're looking for.

Scott, who remembers getting used to having to "steer" out of a corner and not being pleased about it...but again, that Honda motor sang me into yet one more betrayal of previously solemn vows against the abominations of fwd...

 

I actually agree with you on the dubious benefit of too much caster... But so what? we keep on experimenting.
Yes your right about the low load application- so no need for expensive spherical bearings right? And you pretty well support my statement in your first paragraph. I did not mean to imply that a bronze busing was equal to a spherical bearing., Just nothing wrong with it in this application.
And I also agree that 4 to 5 degres is plenty of caster if you can get it.

Why so angry Chris? another not very profitable month? I have a set of your beautifully made lower arm and Compliance bearings here on my desk... Very nicely made but I don't understand why you think your sales will increase by continually rubbishing products that already sell very well, and don't have any complaints about the durability. Continually insulting the intelegence of your potential customers by calling them names like Hard Parkers among the long list you have come up with in the past just makes you look like an arrogant *******...
You don't like the idea of bronze bushings on Honda arms thats fine, you just keep on making your beautiful over priced one offs and I'm sure you'll do very well.
But don't insult me, or my products for having a better customer following than you can ever dream of. When you have as many satisfied customers as I have - all over the world, Then you will have something to crow about.

I don't have any plans to make the Spherical lower Bearings at this stage because my research tells me that the Honda Club racing market is a little resistant to your pricing, and for me to make your bearing kits cheaper would probably tip you right off the edge!
So please don't turn this thread into another of your woe is me, nobody apreciates the quality of my stuff... abusive rants that ruin a good informative thread and usually gets your sorry *** banned for a while.

Kiwi

 

This thread was intended to be a beneficial and informative thread towards caster adjustment. So if we could please keep the ranting of ones business practices or competition in the market out of it I would greatly appreciate it.

I honestly hate when my threads get closed because of what is transpiring currently. So please keep it informative!

Thanks!

 

No arguement here...

Kiwi

 

That's an interesting anecdote.
I currently run +7.5 deg of caster on my s13 and love it.



I get a crazy return to center with only +4 deg of caster on my autox EF.
I mean it's seriously nuts.
I can take a video if you like, but trust me it's abrupt and amazing.
It's way more pronounced on this car than on my 240 even thought the latter runs much more caster.

 

So you like stiction? Other than cost I can't see any reason to go with an old fashioned friction bearing vs a spherical.

Thanks for asking, I am doing great. Did 41% of last year's sales the first two months of this year. Last year I quadrupled my business. Not angry at all, just don't like trolls that spread lies and disinformation to grow what is kind of their business. I mean, you are just a lackey for PasswordJDM now right? :-)

Taking a few notes from your Chinese/Taiwanese brethren and doing a little reverse engineering? I am flattered.

I grin from ear to ear every time I take one of your customers. Say hi to your Kiwi friends running my products now! Toodles!

 

*sigh.....* Once again i ask that we keep this thread informative.

 

Ever want to lock down your own thread?

Jeff and Chris,

I like both of you guys, but the OP wants a discussion of caster. Check out the new thread I'm about to start.

 

I get crazy return to center too, and crazy right past center in the other direction, and then back again crazy...in the first couple of gears...on uneven pavement.

Scott, who was gonna go take a quick drive in his kaa to make sure his memory was working properly...but when I opened the door to the shop I suddenly remembered why That wasn't going to happen...I'll respond further as soon as I can...

 

Strut based front suspension on a RWD car is going to respond radically different to increased caster than a double wishbone based FWD car.


I also had massive kickback through the wheel with the increased caster over uneven pavement, which is also something that high caster strut based suspension don't seem to suffer from (modern Mercedes being a great example of this).

 

Competition is always good!
Between drivers, between countries, especially between manufactures.
Good things come out of competition.
Does not matter if one is a copy of another or a variant from an original. There is always room for improvement which competition brings out.
Competition between manufactures also help reduce costs which we all want in racing.

...just sayn!

 

Could'nt agree more. The problem is we seem to have a situation with this one guy who does make a very good product, who has every right to his opinion... but can't help but turn every post into a personal, nasty and generally completely unfounded personal attack on anyone who makes an alternative to what he thinks is right!
Sure I sell (Good quality)product's that are made in Taiwan... Until I decide that I can find better quality elsewhere, which we have just done. But to be accused of selling nothing but cheap Chinese **** and wide sweeping, untrue statements by someone who knows nothing about me or my business is a little over the top. And not what we need here.

Back to the subject- I think it is well established that if you can gain up to 4 degrees Caster on a DC2/EG, EK Civic or possibly a little more on an EF Then make the most of it. More is not always better.


Kiwi

 

From my experience, those who trash others work/products to make themselves look better are only doing so to cover something up on their end. Its a warning to those in sales for sure! You just don't trash talk the competition, that is rule one in sales.

Kiwi, it does not matter where you manufacture, its how you QC your products.