4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual
09-15-2003, 11:30 AM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual
http://autos.msn.com/advice/ne...etcal
Volvo is looking at and might even be using 4 point harnesses in the near future in their street cars. Will this change anybodys opinion on if they are safe on the street now?
watch the video in the link and it shows both designs they have come up with so far.
Volvo is looking at and might even be using 4 point harnesses in the near future in their street cars. Will this change anybodys opinion on if they are safe on the street now?
watch the video in the link and it shows both designs they have come up with so far.
09-15-2003, 12:19 PM
#2
New User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (ryan12321)
I really dont like the looks of the X design. For one, it looks very uncomfortable and I think most people would not bother with the second belt. Hell, I think the addition of any other belts or steps necessary to put on the seat belt will make the number of seat belt wearers go down even lower than it already is!
I didnt think the general consensus was that a 4 pt was dangerous on the road, rather a 5 pt w/o a cage. From the looks of things, I dont see anything wrong with a 4 pt w/o a bar.
Oh, and this guy is my hero.
I didnt think the general consensus was that a 4 pt was dangerous on the road, rather a 5 pt w/o a cage. From the looks of things, I dont see anything wrong with a 4 pt w/o a bar.
Oh, and this guy is my hero.
09-15-2003, 12:51 PM
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: RIP Craig Jones
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (ryan12321)
the big difference here is that its OE safety equipment thats been crash tested and DOT approved rather than some jacknob installing a set of aftermarket 4 point belts into locations that may or may not be safe.
09-15-2003, 01:46 PM
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (.RJ)
as long as the volvo won't crush when you drop it dirty side up, then it's worth researching...
09-15-2003, 03:27 PM
#6
New User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (George Knight
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First question from the Virginia troopers: Will the harness be constructed in a way that will allow you to check your blind spots, and will you be able to lean forward and look over your shoulder?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I see, thanks.
First question from the Virginia troopers: Will the harness be constructed in a way that will allow you to check your blind spots, and will you be able to lean forward and look over your shoulder?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I see, thanks.
09-15-2003, 04:18 PM
#7
Paragraph Alert
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Oil rig, middle of the ocean
Posts: 5,373
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (George Knight
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First question from the Virginia troopers: Will the harness be constructed in a way that will allow you to check your blind spots, and will you be able to lean forward and look over your shoulder?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Who needs to check for blind spots when you can just drop it into 3rd gear VTEC yo!
What safety problems arise if you wear your right shoulder belt just loose enough to allow your body to turn to check bling spots? If its still tight enough to keep your face off of the steering wheel is that acceptable?
First question from the Virginia troopers: Will the harness be constructed in a way that will allow you to check your blind spots, and will you be able to lean forward and look over your shoulder?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Who needs to check for blind spots when you can just drop it into 3rd gear VTEC yo!
What safety problems arise if you wear your right shoulder belt just loose enough to allow your body to turn to check bling spots? If its still tight enough to keep your face off of the steering wheel is that acceptable?
Trending Topics
09-15-2003, 04:35 PM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (ryan12321)
Interesting. I also don't like the X belt. THe thought of submarining and taking your noggin off is not too apealing.
I would be interested in the inflatable belt. I'm a big big guy, and that little 2 inch belt is going to leave a big welt, if it does not break. I've replaced the drivers belt, after I caught it in the door a few times, as I felt its strength might be comprimised.
I drove on the street with a 4 point in my old Porsche 911 back in the 70's I did not like it on the street, because of exactly what George said. It was too restraining for "casual" city driving.
I would be interested in the inflatable belt. I'm a big big guy, and that little 2 inch belt is going to leave a big welt, if it does not break. I've replaced the drivers belt, after I caught it in the door a few times, as I felt its strength might be comprimised.
I drove on the street with a 4 point in my old Porsche 911 back in the 70's I did not like it on the street, because of exactly what George said. It was too restraining for "casual" city driving.
09-15-2003, 05:14 PM
#9
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: CA, U.S.A
Posts: 2,198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (ryan12321)
A recent volvo press video showed their newest "suv" offering getting "rolled" and it did not crush, at all. I believe it was going 50-60mph prior to getting thrown on it's side; however, it didn't impact hit anything like a center divider, phone poll , etc so I can't really speak to the integrity with regard to hitting something once rolling, but otherwise I was very impressed. Not even a crumple.
Maybe volvo is attempting to restrict the reliance on airbags on account of the peripheral injuries they've caused.
Maybe volvo is attempting to restrict the reliance on airbags on account of the peripheral injuries they've caused.
09-15-2003, 06:29 PM
#10
Suspetise...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Burninating the peasants yo
Posts: 12,287
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (bb6h22a)
Interestingly enough, the whole crumple design was made to improve the chances of a person surviving/walking away with minimal injury. I don't remember the exact physics behind it, but it has something to do with the car absorbing the force of the impact, not the person. Older cars would just sort of bounce off whatever the hit, and the driver/passengers would be thrown around like short people in a midget-flinging contest. I guess maybe with airbags that problem is lessened, but there's still the impact of the body against the seatbelt, which I know is enough to damage internal organs.
09-16-2003, 03:04 AM
#11
be professional
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (ryan12321)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tom Lankard »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Restricted Movement an Issue
Heiler also reported reservations Mercedes-Benz researchers had about the more restrictive four-point belt systems. "They really hold the upper body in too rigid a position," he said. And that could contribute to the kind of whiplash-induced skull fracture that is believed to have ultimately caused Earnhardt's death.
Volvo and Ford officials said their designs and anticipated applications of four-point belts either avoid or minimize the chance of such a skull fracture. Much like today's three-point belts on inertia reels, the seat belt systems Ford is evaluating "allow movement of the body," Rouhana said.
Their most promising benefit, he said, is that they "may be able to retain the occupant better in a crash on the other side of the car," where today's standard, outboard, single shoulder belt provides minimal restraint.
Volvo is a bit more reserved. "We're only investigating [the four-point belt] as a front-seat opportunity," said Roger Ormisher, vice president for public relations at Volvo Cars of North America, Inc. By that he means one intended first to better restrain an occupant in a low-speed collision and second to properly position an occupant for the deployment of an airbag. "It's not really a harness that's pulled tight," he cautioned.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmmm . . .
With reels on each shoulder belt, that would (somewhat) eliminate the problem of restricted movement/visibility, however I'd still be concerned about the belts locking in a rollover - unless they start adding way more rollover protection to cars in the B-pillar area. The increased risk of whiplash injuries is also an issue, as mentioned.
People won't wear these things though. There are enough problems just trying to get people to wear 3-point belts, let alone something even more restrictive. No point in making a better seat belt if people are not going to wear them.
Heiler also reported reservations Mercedes-Benz researchers had about the more restrictive four-point belt systems. "They really hold the upper body in too rigid a position," he said. And that could contribute to the kind of whiplash-induced skull fracture that is believed to have ultimately caused Earnhardt's death.
Volvo and Ford officials said their designs and anticipated applications of four-point belts either avoid or minimize the chance of such a skull fracture. Much like today's three-point belts on inertia reels, the seat belt systems Ford is evaluating "allow movement of the body," Rouhana said.
Their most promising benefit, he said, is that they "may be able to retain the occupant better in a crash on the other side of the car," where today's standard, outboard, single shoulder belt provides minimal restraint.
Volvo is a bit more reserved. "We're only investigating [the four-point belt] as a front-seat opportunity," said Roger Ormisher, vice president for public relations at Volvo Cars of North America, Inc. By that he means one intended first to better restrain an occupant in a low-speed collision and second to properly position an occupant for the deployment of an airbag. "It's not really a harness that's pulled tight," he cautioned.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmmm . . .
With reels on each shoulder belt, that would (somewhat) eliminate the problem of restricted movement/visibility, however I'd still be concerned about the belts locking in a rollover - unless they start adding way more rollover protection to cars in the B-pillar area. The increased risk of whiplash injuries is also an issue, as mentioned.
People won't wear these things though. There are enough problems just trying to get people to wear 3-point belts, let alone something even more restrictive. No point in making a better seat belt if people are not going to wear them.
09-16-2003, 05:34 AM
#12
Honda-Tech Member
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: d.c.
Posts: 859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (Targa250R)
All of the 15 year olds will be clamoring to take out mommys Volvo raceka now!
ceas..
ceas..
09-16-2003, 05:59 AM
#13
New User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arlington, NoVA, USA
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (sscguy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by sscguy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Interestingly enough, the whole crumple design was made to improve the chances of a person surviving/walking away with minimal injury. I don't remember the exact physics behind it, but it has something to do with the car absorbing the force of the impact, not the person. Older cars would just sort of bounce off whatever the hit, and the driver/passengers would be thrown around like short people in a midget-flinging contest. I guess maybe with airbags that problem is lessened, but there's still the impact of the body against the seatbelt, which I know is enough to damage internal organs.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm going to go as far to say that crumple zones don't benefit people in crashes as much as they think. Instead, cars crumple to the point where the passenger compartment begins to collapse. Interestingly enough, the number of traffic accident fatalities has not changed much of the past 20 years. Why? With all the new crumple zone technology, there is 30% more weight to a vehicle. It's a matter of things getting bigger, fatter, and requiring additional means to minimize damage to the occupants of a vehicle. Take for example, the Volve 240, which has the lowest amount of fatalities of any car produced in the world. That thing had no crumple zone, but could take out telephone polls.
I also have another theory to throw out there. As cars have gotten more reliable over the years, dealerships need new channels to make money in their service departments. Therefore, little fender benders, which in the early 80s might have left a scratch, are now $4000.
I'm going to go as far to say that crumple zones don't benefit people in crashes as much as they think. Instead, cars crumple to the point where the passenger compartment begins to collapse. Interestingly enough, the number of traffic accident fatalities has not changed much of the past 20 years. Why? With all the new crumple zone technology, there is 30% more weight to a vehicle. It's a matter of things getting bigger, fatter, and requiring additional means to minimize damage to the occupants of a vehicle. Take for example, the Volve 240, which has the lowest amount of fatalities of any car produced in the world. That thing had no crumple zone, but could take out telephone polls.
I also have another theory to throw out there. As cars have gotten more reliable over the years, dealerships need new channels to make money in their service departments. Therefore, little fender benders, which in the early 80s might have left a scratch, are now $4000.
09-16-2003, 06:26 AM
#14
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 428
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (John)
While the total number of fatalities may have been held constant, the number of deaths per person has dropped rather significantly, particularly in the last 20 years (1980 = 22.3/100,000 people; 1998 = 16.1/100,000 people - CDC).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/h...5.pdf
Despite the gallery of horrors that could exist in rare and freakish accidents (i.e., roll over into pole), I think that a properly designed 4 point restraint system should be an improvement. I can't imagine that spreading the impact over a larger area of the body could be a bad thing.
Of course, these things would have to allow mobility just like a three point belt. Having driven a few hundred miles to VIR from DC using 3 of 5 points of a normal harness, I can say that it sucked for vision -- even with the shoulder belt loose.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/h...5.pdf
Despite the gallery of horrors that could exist in rare and freakish accidents (i.e., roll over into pole), I think that a properly designed 4 point restraint system should be an improvement. I can't imagine that spreading the impact over a larger area of the body could be a bad thing.
Of course, these things would have to allow mobility just like a three point belt. Having driven a few hundred miles to VIR from DC using 3 of 5 points of a normal harness, I can say that it sucked for vision -- even with the shoulder belt loose.
09-16-2003, 06:41 AM
#15
New User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arlington, NoVA, USA
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (HippoMark)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HippoMark »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">While the total number of fatalities may have been held constant, the number of deaths per person has dropped rather significantly, particularly in the last 20 years (1980 = 22.3/100,000 people; 1998 = 16.1/100,000 people - CDC).
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/h...5.pdf </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, but there are several other factors to consider as well. Improvements in tire technology, increased emphasis on wearing seat belts, better handling cars, etc. The numerous factors are not mutually exclusive, or really quantifiable. That's why I stated it was just a personal theory. I am simply arguing that much crumple zone technology is a wasteful and the added weight of such designs in negating most benefits of crumple zones in addition to costing much more.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/h...5.pdf </TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes, but there are several other factors to consider as well. Improvements in tire technology, increased emphasis on wearing seat belts, better handling cars, etc. The numerous factors are not mutually exclusive, or really quantifiable. That's why I stated it was just a personal theory. I am simply arguing that much crumple zone technology is a wasteful and the added weight of such designs in negating most benefits of crumple zones in addition to costing much more.
09-16-2003, 08:18 AM
#16
New User
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 1,720
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (John)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by John »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
there is 30% more weight to a vehicle. </TD></TR></TABLE>
No way! Take, for example, a sixties stang and a 2000 stang. How about the old Buicks, Dodges, etc..! Back then they were "real" cars.
there is 30% more weight to a vehicle. </TD></TR></TABLE>
No way! Take, for example, a sixties stang and a 2000 stang. How about the old Buicks, Dodges, etc..! Back then they were "real" cars.
09-16-2003, 11:17 AM
#17
Suspetise...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Burninating the peasants yo
Posts: 12,287
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (siisgood00)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by siisgood00 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No way! Take, for example, a sixties stang and a 2000 stang. How about the old Buicks, Dodges, etc..! Back then they were "real" cars. </TD></TR></TABLE>
What he said. Old cars were by no means lightweight. SUVs discounted, cars are just much lighter nowadays. The crumple technology wouldn't add weight to the car, just a different design to how the metal bends and what it's made of. The 10 airbags or whatever is standard now, plus all their hardware, yes, that would add lots of weight, but I think even with that we're coming out lighter.
No way! Take, for example, a sixties stang and a 2000 stang. How about the old Buicks, Dodges, etc..! Back then they were "real" cars.
</TD></TR></TABLE>What he said. Old cars were by no means lightweight. SUVs discounted, cars are just much lighter nowadays. The crumple technology wouldn't add weight to the car, just a different design to how the metal bends and what it's made of. The 10 airbags or whatever is standard now, plus all their hardware, yes, that would add lots of weight, but I think even with that we're coming out lighter.
09-16-2003, 11:33 AM
#18
New User
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Arlington, NoVA, USA
Posts: 4,941
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (sscguy)
OK, allow me to provide an example. My Audi TQC weighed in at 2600-2700lbs, and that was with the first generation of Quattro technology, a 24 gallon tank, and a turbo 5 cylinder motor. And while that car wasn't big, it was exactly small either (had more back seat room than my 5G Accord did). That thing was nearly indescructible too...
I was not trying to compare cars today to cars in the 60s. I said 20 years ago, not 40. Sure today's metals are lighter, but with all the extra safety equipment and additional materials for crumple zones, today's cars are overweight.
I was not trying to compare cars today to cars in the 60s. I said 20 years ago, not 40. Sure today's metals are lighter, but with all the extra safety equipment and additional materials for crumple zones, today's cars are overweight.
09-16-2003, 12:15 PM
#19
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: locust grove, va, 22508
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (George Knight
ha, been through this before w/4 diff. state troopers. Here's how it ALWAYS happened.
cop-I pulled u over for no seat belts.
me- oh, uhh, but i'm still wearing them
cop-oh, uhh, those aren't d.o.t. approved.
me-right, they are fia approved, way higher then d.o.t......
cop-what's that? not d.o.t. then they're illegal.
me-so something that is safer is illegal?
cop-uhh,well you can't see your blind spots
me-oh, well look at my mirror (I have a 5 panel wink mirror)
cop- oh, that's a good idea, where'd u get it....
And that's how it went w/ 4 troopers and several OC sherriffs.
Maybe bigger rear view mirros will solve the blind spot problem?
cop-I pulled u over for no seat belts.
me- oh, uhh, but i'm still wearing them
cop-oh, uhh, those aren't d.o.t. approved.
me-right, they are fia approved, way higher then d.o.t......
cop-what's that? not d.o.t. then they're illegal.
me-so something that is safer is illegal?
cop-uhh,well you can't see your blind spots
me-oh, well look at my mirror (I have a 5 panel wink mirror)
cop- oh, that's a good idea, where'd u get it....
And that's how it went w/ 4 troopers and several OC sherriffs.
Maybe bigger rear view mirros will solve the blind spot problem?
09-16-2003, 01:19 PM
#20
Suspetise...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Burninating the peasants yo
Posts: 12,287
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (John)
Ok, we're just not getting anywhere with this. I'll agree that today's cars are overweight, for the most part. To really compare the cars though we'd have to have statistics on the fatality rate in the 80's to the rate now, and not just the total number of dead people, because there sure as hell are more people on the road now than in '83. I'm not sure if anyone will actually make the effort to find that, so...
To get back on topic though, are the average 3-point belts used currently a weak point in crash safety? If they were, I'd imagine this would've been addressed awhile ago.
To get back on topic though, are the average 3-point belts used currently a weak point in crash safety? If they were, I'd imagine this would've been addressed awhile ago.
09-16-2003, 02:17 PM
#21
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: locust grove, va, 22508
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (George Knight
Smae thing happened in maryland and even by the cops in va beach. I don't understand how they can bust u for something like that. Granted there's the d.o.t thing but what can they say? It is a lil better the stock, IF properly worn and properly anchored. Atleast to me it doesn't make sens but you guys make a good point about that whiplash thing. Ha, hans device for the street?!?
09-16-2003, 07:19 PM
#24
Oracle of GDD
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Silicon Alley historic gangland
Posts: 12,028
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (George Knight
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by George Knighton »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
First question from the Virginia troopers: Will the harness be constructed in a way that will allow you to check your blind spots, and will you be able to lean forward and look over your shoulder?</TD></TR></TABLE>
What for? It's not like any of the drivers in this state...er, commonwealth, do either of those things anyway.
First question from the Virginia troopers: Will the harness be constructed in a way that will allow you to check your blind spots, and will you be able to lean forward and look over your shoulder?</TD></TR></TABLE>
What for? It's not like any of the drivers in this state...er, commonwealth, do either of those things anyway.
09-16-2003, 07:23 PM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: RIP Craig Jones
Posts: 30,826
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: 4 point harnesses unsafe for the street? read-its not the same argument as usual (George Knight
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What for? It's not like any of the drivers in this state...er, commonwealth, do either of those things anyway.</TD></TR></TABLE>
LOL... so true.
I'm hoping that someone decides to take out the lunchbox in the upcoming deluge. I have ATE, Carbotech and Goodyear Eagle F1's to bet that i can stop much faster than the durango behind me when the driver in front of me does not check their blind spot.
LOL... so true.
I'm hoping that someone decides to take out the lunchbox in the upcoming deluge. I have ATE, Carbotech and Goodyear Eagle F1's to bet that i can stop much faster than the durango behind me when the driver in front of me does not check their blind spot.