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Ls/Vtec, NA

 
Old 05-01-2018, 06:14 AM
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Default Ls/Vtec, NA

Well it's been beaten to death, but for some reason, I'm compelled to make a thread more specified toward the naturally aspirated "Frankenstein" build.
Honda has made a reputation in the car world; and singlehandedly changed America's perception of displacement. And with cars like the Mclaren P1 now days, one might even say there IS a replacement for displacement.
The fact remains that Ls/Vtec is an awesome display of synergy between manufacturer, and consumer creativity. I'm incredibly stoked about this build, and without further adieu:
My goal is 270-300whp(I'm sure this is an ambiguous number for an NA setup)I've gone with a b18 block, and pr3 head. I'm sure I'll need to upgrade everything, but for starters; the head I bought is fully rebuilt, I got it from this guy who didn't really know what he had, and I'd like to beat it up before I go replacing everything.
So for now I'd just like to work with the bottom end; knife the crank, upgrade bearings and rod bolts. To start, I just want a nice, smooth and reliable build that can make what it will with the head being as is.
I'm completely new to this, so any questions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:06 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

You're honestly better going boosted at that power level, it will be cheaper and less stress on parts.
N/A will have a narrow, peaky powerband. The turbo car will have a much broader powerband and it will rev lower.
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Old 05-01-2018, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

OP you need to do more research. Your goal is not realistic. 270 whp, all motor, out of a b-series, is not going to happen, in a newb build.
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Old 05-01-2018, 03:17 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by GiantDad View Post
You're honestly better going boosted at that power level, it will be cheaper and less stress on parts.
N/A will have a narrow, peaky powerband. The turbo car will have a much broader powerband and it will rev lower.
I've no doubt going boost would be eaiser, but my goal is to be somewhat of a standalone. I realize 270 is unrealistic but even coming close would be worth it(to me). That being said; Port and polish the head, stage 2 cams, BC Titanium dual springs/retainers, s2 intake manifold & throttle body, b16 pistons, knifed and polish crank, and a badass tune should get me atleast 215-220, then I'll start worry about the header, and would better injectors make a difference in this range?
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Old 05-02-2018, 03:47 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Think about it, at that power level, you could have a turbo ls/vtec WITH a badass suspension set up that will run circles around the NA car.

The turbo engine will have a broader and sooner powerband, the engine will deliver for more torque too.

The NA car will but gutless until near redline, also it's driveabilty and mannerisms on the streets will be HORRIBLE. Not to mention it WILL wear out sooner.
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:36 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by GiantDad View Post
Think about it, at that power level, you could have a turbo ls/vtec WITH a badass suspension set up that will run circles around the NA car.

The turbo engine will have a broader and sooner powerband, the engine will deliver for more torque too.

The NA car will but gutless until near redline, also it's driveabilty and mannerisms on the streets will be HORRIBLE. Not to mention it WILL wear out sooner.
B-series all motor builds in the 200-230whp range can have wonderful power bands, if done correctly, though if built by someone who says they are going to install titanium springs, it probably wont be done correctly lol.

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Old 05-02-2018, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by GiantDad View Post
Think about it, at that power level, you could have a turbo ls/vtec WITH a badass suspension set up that will run circles around the NA car.

The turbo engine will have a broader and sooner powerband, the engine will deliver for more torque too.

The NA car will but gutless until near redline, also it's driveabilty and mannerisms on the streets will be HORRIBLE. Not to mention it WILL wear out sooner.
like I said, I'm completely new to this. I was under the impression going NA was a way around turbo lag, and would male for a more responsive drive, but I suppose when you are tryna get 250+ out of a b-series you're dramatically changing the engine's mannerisms.
I really appreciate the advice GiantDad!
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Old 05-02-2018, 01:19 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by CandyRedRC46 View Post
B-series all motor builds in the 200-230whp range can have wonderful power bands, if done correctly, though if built by someone who says they are going to install titanium springs, it probably wont be done correctly lol.

Whoops, I stand corrected.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:53 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

VTEC can allow a bseries to make big all motor power, while retaining decent street manners and a nice wide power band (especially with LS cranks and +82mm bores)
An 84mm x89mm B series with a vtec head, 12.5:1 compression and skunk2 pro 2 etc cams, would have a very nice power band, if it was tuned properly with properly matched supporting mods.
You start to run into the issues that Giant dad is talking about when you either have poor tuning or get to the edge of a motors capabilities, i.e. vtec killer cam conversions with stupid high compression (+13:1). This happens on b-series engines somewhere around when you start getting over 250whp or start approaching 300whp.
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Old 05-03-2018, 05:59 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

TLDR; OP needs to either change his goal to 225whp all motor or 300whp turbo.
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Old 05-21-2018, 12:08 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

I've done a bit more looking into it. So far I've been told: Knife crank, ARP Rod bolts, ACL or OEM bearings, Pr3 pistons on ls rods(rods are find to 300 always with propper tune), ported/polished both sides, up the valve size(36-37mm), hot cams, springs/retainers, rockers, fuek pump, 440cc injectors(you never know), skunk2(ITR)intake/throttle body.

My goal is 250, but anything between 220-250 is fine.



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Old 05-21-2018, 10:29 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Why do you keep talking about knife edging the crank? (Reminds me about stuff I read back when I was a kid and knew nothing about Honda's lol.)
Why do you want to mess with the rockers?
Why do you want to mess with the valves? (you're idea of +36mm valves in a b series head is comical to say the least lol)
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:06 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by Neglect View Post
Well it's been beaten to death, but for some reason, I'm compelled to make a thread more specified toward the naturally aspirated "Frankenstein" build.
Honda has made a reputation in the car world; and singlehandedly changed America's perception of displacement. And with cars like the Mclaren P1 now days, one might even say there IS a replacement for displacement.
The fact remains that Ls/Vtec is an awesome display of synergy between manufacturer, and consumer creativity. I'm incredibly stoked about this build, and without further adieu:
My goal is 270-300whp(I'm sure this is an ambiguous number for an NA setup)I've gone with a b18 block, and pr3 head. I'm sure I'll need to upgrade everything, but for starters; the head I bought is fully rebuilt, I got it from this guy who didn't really know what he had, and I'd like to beat it up before I go replacing everything.
So for now I'd just like to work with the bottom end; knife the crank, upgrade bearings and rod bolts. To start, I just want a nice, smooth and reliable build that can make what it will with the head being as is.
I'm completely new to this, so any questions or comments would be greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Neglect
My friend, please check out the last few threads made over the last 12 years with no change in components or philosophy. You'll find all of the advice, components, and adjustments here:.

https://honda-tech.com/forums/all-mo...0vtec-1676914/
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Old 06-20-2018, 04:37 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Should I be worried about this?
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Old 06-20-2018, 08:54 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

If you are talking about the cast flashing... nope, don't worry.
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:13 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by JRCivic1 View Post
If you are talking about the cast flashing... nope, don't worry.
thank you, I live in bfe, and help isn't easy to find or cheap. So everything is a huge help.

My next concern lies with the cam gears and camshafts. I've decided to go with adjustable gears, and I'm concerned about aligning the camshaft to the blueprint of the gear.

Do the lobes on the cams indicate 1,3,4,2?
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

I'm not sure what you mean about the cams. They are only able to be installed one direction, and the cam gears should be adjustable by individual degrees +/- 10 or whatever the value they have shown is.

Just make sure that you start with the cam gears at 0,0 and the engine correctly timed to TDC. Follow the booklet if the cam manufacturer sends you one, sometimes they have instructions for degreeing the cams. If you go with high lift cams make sure you check P2V.

I would not, in almost any application, recommend oversized valves. I actually see more power and opportunity typically lost with oversized valves than gained. V2V clearances get much tighter, which limit your options on camshafts and also makes it harder to run more aggressive timing. Larger valves means more rotational weight in the head/valvetrain as well, in general things get a bit more questionable at high RPM.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:55 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Moved to the Hybrid/Engine swap section as their is no indication that this should be in a specific model section (92-00 Civic/Sol section).

ATTN: Section Moderator(s), please move this thread to a more appropriate section if I erroneously moved it here and a franken moter LS/VTEC doesn't belong in your section.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:45 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by Chance EG View Post
I'm not sure what you mean about the cams. They are only able to be installed one direction, and the cam gears should be adjustable by individual degrees +/- 10 or whatever the value they have shown is.

Just make sure that you start with the cam gears at 0,0 and the engine correctly timed to TDC. Follow the booklet if the cam manufacturer sends you one, sometimes they have instructions for degreeing the cams. If you go with high lift cams make sure you check P2V.

I would not, in almost any application, recommend oversized valves. I actually see more power and opportunity typically lost with oversized valves than gained. V2V clearances get much tighter, which limit your options on camshafts and also makes it harder to run more aggressive timing. Larger valves means more rotational weight in the head/valvetrain as well, in general things get a bit more questionable at high RPM.
I'm keeping stock b16 cams. Is it possible to put the cam gear on the cam upside down? Or is there indication on the cam that aligns with the "Upside" indication on the gear? That's what I mean.
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:59 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

That is seriously a noob question and signs of too damn lazy to read.....
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Old 06-22-2018, 02:31 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by tony_2018 View Post
That is seriously a noob question and signs of too damn lazy to read.....
So me asking questions becuz Im a noob is lazy? Got it.
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Old 06-22-2018, 02:36 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by tony_2018 View Post
That is seriously a noob question and signs of too damn lazy to read.....
Your attempt to be insulting is subjective. Unless you've got access to my search history.

If anyone is being lazy here it's the guy who'd rather be a dick than give a simple answer.

As if I'm the one making it unnecessarily complicated...
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Old 06-23-2018, 10:28 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

OP, easy with the name calling... Tony may have come off as a bit salty but he does have a valid point. If you had taken a moment to LOOK at the end of any factory "B" series cams and OE gears, it is painfully obvious that there is only one indexed slot for the alignment key and cam gear to be installed... so there is NO WAY that a cam gear can be installed upside down. Thus, the question would not need to be asked here... or anywhere for that matter. Knowing this, Tony may have thought you were trolling.
As for your defensive and combative posture... might I suggest a kinder approach in the future so that when you truly NEED help, members of this forum will want to do so. My personal observations on this forum here would suggest that those individuals that act deserving or expect/demand answers... or appear verbally combative or abrasive get ignored or flamed. Doing a bit of research first before asking questions here (and this doesn't mean saying "Don't flame me, but I did a Google search and didn't find what I was looking for, so I want to know... ______" and then ask a question proving you OBVIOUSLY didn't search at all) along with a respectful and humble attitude will go a long way in attracting the answers that you seek.
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Old 06-24-2018, 10:33 AM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Originally Posted by JRCivic1 View Post
OP, easy with the name calling... Tony may have come off as a bit salty but he does have a valid point. If you had taken a moment to LOOK at the end of any factory "B" series cams and OE gears, it is painfully obvious that there is only one indexed slot for the alignment key and cam gear to be installed... so there is NO WAY that a cam gear can be installed upside down. Thus, the question would not need to be asked here... or anywhere for that matter. Knowing this, Tony may have thought you were trolling.
As for your defensive and combative posture... might I suggest a kinder approach in the future so that when you truly NEED help, members of this forum will want to do so. My personal observations on this forum here would suggest that those individuals that act deserving or expect/demand answers... or appear verbally combative or abrasive get ignored or flamed. Doing a bit of research first before asking questions here (and this doesn't mean saying "Don't flame me, but I did a Google search and didn't find what I was looking for, so I want to know... ______" and then ask a question proving you OBVIOUSLY didn't search at all) along with a respectful and humble attitude will go a long way in attracting the answers that you seek.
The first thing I said is "I'm new to this". Meaning all I can do is read; compare what Ive read, with what I have, and go from there. Im not going to touch anything before Ive read about it.

Which brings me to my next point, I don't know the proper terminology to even have adequate ability to articulate my questions. I have to start off with rudimentary descriptions, and eventually arrive at an article that has what Im looking for.

I appreciate the help, I will certainly not hesitate to put the new gears on with this info.

In regard to the individual with no consideration; I shouldnt have to explain anything. There's nothing wrong with asking questions, and he's always going to be that way unless he gets proportionate feedback. Im sure he'll be okay.
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Old 06-24-2018, 04:19 PM
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Default Re: Ls/Vtec, NA

Our purpose in life is met when we can find the balance of caution and confidence. Humble and sure of it.

All I can say is: I'm new to this, very. I'm sure there are a lot of great mechanics that would agree; I shouldn't be doing this if I havent got any room for error.

If asking questions that make experienced mechanics cringe is what I have to do in order to learn than so be it. Thats any easy price to pay as Im not trying to court and bed any of you. Im here to keep my engine happy.
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