Emissions help.......
06-28-2002, 12:34 PM
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Emissions help.......
I went and got my 95 Civic EX inspected today and Passed everything but the emissions test. Basically i failed for too much NOx (Nitrogen Oxides).
It says the standard for my car is: 1088
It recorded a "score" of: 2509
The thing is i have an OBDII LS motor w/ a OBDI P75 ECU in this car. And, all emissions equipment is hooked up also.
Anybody know how i could get this down to a more acceptable level? Or what parts of the emissions system i should look into "fixing"?
Any help is appreciated.......
It says the standard for my car is: 1088
It recorded a "score" of: 2509
The thing is i have an OBDII LS motor w/ a OBDI P75 ECU in this car. And, all emissions equipment is hooked up also.
Anybody know how i could get this down to a more acceptable level? Or what parts of the emissions system i should look into "fixing"?
Any help is appreciated.......
07-04-2002, 09:22 PM
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Re: Emissions help....... (JV)
What kind of boltons are u running? Try to restrict flow as much as possible, take off the intake, headers and put stock muffler back on. Try buying a new catalytic converter to soak up those fumes better. And maybe running the ECU that is intended for the motor would help. Also retarding your ignition timing will lower emissions. (just not too much or theyl bust you for it). Maybe this will help
07-05-2002, 05:31 AM
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Re: Emissions help....... (JV)
NOx is produced during combustion process.
It increases as the combustion temperature increases.
That is what EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) in motor nowadays do. It recirculates exhaust gas in the engine. Exhaust gas has little or low oxygen and therefore cannot burn and reduces the combustion temp.
Another way of reducing combustion temp is retarding the ignition timing.
If the air fuel mixture gets burned towards (or after) top dead center and as the charge expands, while the pistion is on its way down, combustion presure will defenitely be not as high as as when it was burned when the pistion is on its way up. (factory setting is 16-17 degrees before top dead center).
It increases as the combustion temperature increases.
That is what EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) in motor nowadays do. It recirculates exhaust gas in the engine. Exhaust gas has little or low oxygen and therefore cannot burn and reduces the combustion temp.
Another way of reducing combustion temp is retarding the ignition timing.
If the air fuel mixture gets burned towards (or after) top dead center and as the charge expands, while the pistion is on its way down, combustion presure will defenitely be not as high as as when it was burned when the pistion is on its way up. (factory setting is 16-17 degrees before top dead center).
07-06-2002, 08:24 PM
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Re: Emissions help....... (JV)
Make sure the engine is as hot as possible. If you have an aftermarket thermostat, put the stock one back in for emissions testing, also make them get rid of the fan in front of the car. The hotter it runs, without damaging the car of course, the lower the NOX will be. Also your EGR has to be functioning properly.
07-07-2002, 05:48 PM
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Re: Emissions help....... (Taffy)
Hmm, that's interesting. A TX State bulletin came through reminding us to keep the fan 12" in front of the car to REDUCE NOx. (Some inspectors were getting lazy I guess) You want the cat hot for maximum efficiency, but I can't see why you would want the motor as hot as possible, considering high combustion chamber temperature causes NOx to go up.
JV- Ill get you that list tomorrow, I PROMISE. Been slippin my mind.
If you've cleaned the top end of the engine, the cat is good, and there is a fan blowing for the test, the only other thing I could think of is a lean fuel mixture at part throttle. Maybe you could try an adjustable FPR and try to richen it up that way. HC and CO might go up a bit, hopefully within limits, but I'm guessing NO could go down.
JV- Ill get you that list tomorrow, I PROMISE. Been slippin my mind.
If you've cleaned the top end of the engine, the cat is good, and there is a fan blowing for the test, the only other thing I could think of is a lean fuel mixture at part throttle. Maybe you could try an adjustable FPR and try to richen it up that way. HC and CO might go up a bit, hopefully within limits, but I'm guessing NO could go down.
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07-08-2002, 04:05 PM
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Re: Emissions help....... (JV)
OK JV, here you go... This is a suggested order for NOx failure of things to check:
1. EGR System
2. O2 Sensor
3. Timing/Spark Advance
4. Catalytic Converter
5. Incorrect/faulty thermostat
6. Coolant Temp Sensor may be open
7. MAP Sensor
8. MAF Sensor
9. Other sensors/switchs (uhhh yeah, ok)
10. Fuel Injection System
11. Faulty On-Board COmputer
12. Computer PROM
13. Internal Engine Repair
High HC Failure:
1. Spark Plugs and Wires
2. Timing Spark Advance
3. Vacuum Leaks
4. Other Ignition Problems
5. O2 Sensor
6 Evaporative fuel system
7. Fuel Injection System
8. Air/Fuel Mixture Adjustment
9. PCV System
10. Catalytic Converter(s)
11. Throttle Position Sensor
12. MAP Sensor
13. MAF Sensor
14. Other Sensors/Switchs (dohh, again)
15. Computer PROM
16. Internal Engine Repair
High CO Failure
In the case of carb engines, up to 85-86
1. Choke System
2. Carburetor Repair
In the case of fuel injected engines, from 1986 on,
1. Fuel Injection System
2. Induction system problems
3. O2 Sensor
4. TPS
5. MAP
6. MAF
7. Coolant Temp Sensor may be closed
8. OTher sensors/switches (I guess this is a CYA thing (cover your ***)
9. Valve train problems
10.Jumped engine timing belt
Plus...
Idle speed adjustment
Air Filter Condition
Thermostatic Air Cleaner
Air Injection/Reaction System
EVAP fuel system
Oil and Filter Change
Catalytic Converter
Computer PROM
That's it in a nutshell... We had a 91 Maxima today that failed for NOx, while the HC and CO readings were great. We began diagnosing what might be the problem. First thing we told him was that cylinder 5 plug was crossthreaded and not seated properly. Also, the injector on that cylinder was bad. Unfortunately he declined the repair and paid the checkout. I really wanted to see if that cylinder being dead was the cause for the high NO, but maybe when he gets it fixed and returns, things will be fine.
As far as your car goes, maybe the O2 sensor needs replacement, even if there is no check engine light.
Let us know what your attempts are...and I hope this helps a little.
1. EGR System
2. O2 Sensor
3. Timing/Spark Advance
4. Catalytic Converter
5. Incorrect/faulty thermostat
6. Coolant Temp Sensor may be open
7. MAP Sensor
8. MAF Sensor
9. Other sensors/switchs (uhhh yeah, ok)
10. Fuel Injection System
11. Faulty On-Board COmputer
12. Computer PROM
13. Internal Engine Repair
High HC Failure:
1. Spark Plugs and Wires
2. Timing Spark Advance
3. Vacuum Leaks
4. Other Ignition Problems
5. O2 Sensor
6 Evaporative fuel system
7. Fuel Injection System
8. Air/Fuel Mixture Adjustment
9. PCV System
10. Catalytic Converter(s)
11. Throttle Position Sensor
12. MAP Sensor
13. MAF Sensor
14. Other Sensors/Switchs (dohh, again)
15. Computer PROM
16. Internal Engine Repair
High CO Failure
In the case of carb engines, up to 85-86
1. Choke System
2. Carburetor Repair
In the case of fuel injected engines, from 1986 on,
1. Fuel Injection System
2. Induction system problems
3. O2 Sensor
4. TPS
5. MAP
6. MAF
7. Coolant Temp Sensor may be closed
8. OTher sensors/switches (I guess this is a CYA thing (cover your ***)
9. Valve train problems
10.Jumped engine timing belt
Plus...
Idle speed adjustment
Air Filter Condition
Thermostatic Air Cleaner
Air Injection/Reaction System
EVAP fuel system
Oil and Filter Change
Catalytic Converter
Computer PROM
That's it in a nutshell... We had a 91 Maxima today that failed for NOx, while the HC and CO readings were great. We began diagnosing what might be the problem. First thing we told him was that cylinder 5 plug was crossthreaded and not seated properly. Also, the injector on that cylinder was bad. Unfortunately he declined the repair and paid the checkout. I really wanted to see if that cylinder being dead was the cause for the high NO, but maybe when he gets it fixed and returns, things will be fine.
As far as your car goes, maybe the O2 sensor needs replacement, even if there is no check engine light.
Let us know what your attempts are...and I hope this helps a little.
you all......
07-09-2002, 12:13 PM
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Honda-Tech Member
Re: Emissions help....... (JV)
i have an OBD2 LS in my '92....it wouldn't pass for crap with a test pipe..tried it 3 times. i put on a brand new high flow cat and that baby passed the OBD2 test (they scanned my engine! and made me take the obd2 test!) with the greatest of ease. i was very impressed 
btw, the limit for Nox here in my area was 828...the highest mine ever got was 816. during the 'high speed test' (25mph), the limit was 749, and i only hit 198....... before i put on the cat it was almost 2K i believe. dang test pipes
also, i don't know how it works there, but in Texas, all tests are to be run in SECOND gear. i failed the first time very horribly because the guy kept it in first gear and all the stats went off the chart. i had to explain to him why my car failed and made him redo it..even though i still failed
do they put your car on that dyno looking thing and limit your RPM while also giving you limit for HC, CO, CO2 etc?
also, could you not just located an OBDII ECU and plug it in...what would that do?
btw, the limit for Nox here in my area was 828...the highest mine ever got was 816. during the 'high speed test' (25mph), the limit was 749, and i only hit 198....... before i put on the cat it was almost 2K i believe. dang test pipes
also, i don't know how it works there, but in Texas, all tests are to be run in SECOND gear. i failed the first time very horribly because the guy kept it in first gear and all the stats went off the chart. i had to explain to him why my car failed and made him redo it..even though i still failed
do they put your car on that dyno looking thing and limit your RPM while also giving you limit for HC, CO, CO2 etc?
also, could you not just located an OBDII ECU and plug it in...what would that do?
07-10-2002, 06:32 PM
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Re: Emissions help....... (hot_EF)
[QUOTE]i have an OBD2 LS in my '92....it wouldn't pass for crap with a test pipe..tried it 3 times.
--------It would never pass the visual, I don't know why you bothered after the first fail, unless the dude was a dipsh*t and didn't check, you paid him to overlook it or the test pipe looked like a cat.
i put on a brand new high flow cat and that baby passed the OBD2 test (they scanned my engine! and made me take the obd2 test!) with the greatest of ease. i was very impressed
--------I don't quite understand. They don't scan engines AT ALL. They scan the VIN and registration sticker and look visually for the year model on the hood sticker or production date on the door jamb. If you mean they "scanned the engine" and are referring to the OBD test, then they would have had to enter your car as a 96+ in the computer. Entering 1992 into the machine, whether it be an ESP, Worldwide, Snap-On, or other unit, the machine will force an ASM test, not an OBD test. If they did an OBD test, they must have entered your car as a 96+, which they shouldn't have done. Did you tell them about your OBD2ness and where to find the DLC? Or is your car just equipped with an OBD2 engine running an OBD1 ECU? If so, it would be impossible to do an OBD test on that car without a properly functioning DLC.
Did your old cat, with an OBD2 setup give you a check engine light? If it did, I can see how a new one would help you pass either test,but I am just trying to understand why you changed the cat I guess. To get rid of the check engine light or to reduce the exhaust levels?
btw, the limit for Nox here in my area was 828...the highest mine ever got was 816. during the 'high speed test' (25mph), the limit was 749, and i only hit 198....... before i put on the cat it was almost 2K i believe. dang test
---------Actually the HC,CO, and NO limits are based on the car, not the area (in TX) When I inspect different cars, the values are usually different, but not by a GREAT margin, unless you are doing early 80's cars, then they give you some margin to play with. Under the old two speed idle test, it was consistent for 82+ autos 220ppm HC and 1.20% CO
---
also, i don't know how it works there, but in Texas, all tests are to be run in SECOND gear. i failed the first time very horribly because the guy kept it in first gear and all the stats went off the chart. i had to explain to him why my car failed and made him redo it..even though i still failed
Even with the "extensive" 3 hour training course we received (lol) for both tests, I don't remember them stating that it is mandatory to run it in second gear. The reason being, while most cars maintain the proper RPM in 2nd for the 15 mph test, many cars require a shift to 3rd for the 25mph test, most do, some don't. Also it's impossible to do the ENTIRE test in 1st gear, when the 25 mph test kicks in, you have to shift to second. Remember there is an RPM window you have to stay within, or it makes you stop the car and WAIT and do it again, but the right way. Personally I wouldn't have redone the test, unless you mentioned you were a HT member, lol, AND my boss wasn't looking (he values the time on the machine, $60k financed, he's got a point). Some cars actually do better at higher RPMs, believe it or not.
Anyway, Im just curious as to what type of test they gave you, the year they entered, and for what reason you changed the cat. Oh and congrats for passing anyway! To some, a sticker is a sticker is a sticker.
--------It would never pass the visual, I don't know why you bothered after the first fail, unless the dude was a dipsh*t and didn't check, you paid him to overlook it or the test pipe looked like a cat.
i put on a brand new high flow cat and that baby passed the OBD2 test (they scanned my engine! and made me take the obd2 test!) with the greatest of ease. i was very impressed
--------I don't quite understand. They don't scan engines AT ALL. They scan the VIN and registration sticker and look visually for the year model on the hood sticker or production date on the door jamb. If you mean they "scanned the engine" and are referring to the OBD test, then they would have had to enter your car as a 96+ in the computer. Entering 1992 into the machine, whether it be an ESP, Worldwide, Snap-On, or other unit, the machine will force an ASM test, not an OBD test. If they did an OBD test, they must have entered your car as a 96+, which they shouldn't have done. Did you tell them about your OBD2ness and where to find the DLC? Or is your car just equipped with an OBD2 engine running an OBD1 ECU? If so, it would be impossible to do an OBD test on that car without a properly functioning DLC.
Did your old cat, with an OBD2 setup give you a check engine light? If it did, I can see how a new one would help you pass either test,but I am just trying to understand why you changed the cat I guess. To get rid of the check engine light or to reduce the exhaust levels?
btw, the limit for Nox here in my area was 828...the highest mine ever got was 816. during the 'high speed test' (25mph), the limit was 749, and i only hit 198....... before i put on the cat it was almost 2K i believe. dang test
---------Actually the HC,CO, and NO limits are based on the car, not the area (in TX) When I inspect different cars, the values are usually different, but not by a GREAT margin, unless you are doing early 80's cars, then they give you some margin to play with. Under the old two speed idle test, it was consistent for 82+ autos 220ppm HC and 1.20% CO
---
also, i don't know how it works there, but in Texas, all tests are to be run in SECOND gear. i failed the first time very horribly because the guy kept it in first gear and all the stats went off the chart. i had to explain to him why my car failed and made him redo it..even though i still failed
Even with the "extensive" 3 hour training course we received (lol) for both tests, I don't remember them stating that it is mandatory to run it in second gear. The reason being, while most cars maintain the proper RPM in 2nd for the 15 mph test, many cars require a shift to 3rd for the 25mph test, most do, some don't. Also it's impossible to do the ENTIRE test in 1st gear, when the 25 mph test kicks in, you have to shift to second. Remember there is an RPM window you have to stay within, or it makes you stop the car and WAIT and do it again, but the right way. Personally I wouldn't have redone the test, unless you mentioned you were a HT member, lol, AND my boss wasn't looking (he values the time on the machine, $60k financed, he's got a point). Some cars actually do better at higher RPMs, believe it or not.
Anyway, Im just curious as to what type of test they gave you, the year they entered, and for what reason you changed the cat. Oh and congrats for passing anyway! To some, a sticker is a sticker is a sticker.
07-10-2002, 07:09 PM
#14
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Emissions help....... (m0bile)
hmmm...okay...
first off, i bought the car already with a swap....'92 CX with a b18b. I bought the car down in Bryan, TX. Car already had tags/inspection good through the end of the '02 year. Tried to get the title changed, Dallas County said I needed an emissions test done IN Dallas County...the town I purchased the car in doesn't have emissions laws....So I need it done in Dallas. Well, unfortunately, this was literally the exact same day that Texas got all those new machines, stricter laws blah blah blah blah. So I took the car in....it failed, but the guy said the machine was acting strange and that he'll do it again...he said simply that 'your RPM is too high'...and I was confused because how in the world would RPM matter for an emissions test? So they pulled the car back onto the dyno deal...this time I was watching the screen....the 'low' speed test was all fine....did it in 1st gear. then come time for the 'high' speed test, a HUGE note came on the screen that said 'perform this test in second gear'....well the guy never put it in second gear......again i 'failed' because the 'RPM was too high'....and I explained to him that it was probably because he didn't put it down into second gear....I mean at 25 mph in first gear the RPM is pretty dang high. I wasn't going to get screwed for HIS mistake (even if I would have failed had the test been performed properly)......so of course I told him to do it over. Well the shop was closing...so he recognized his mistake and told me to come back the next day. So I did....performed the test in second gear like it was supposed to...my HC's were way too high....so I immediately knew it was the cat (or lack thereof)....get home, look under my car, and sure enough, I have a test pipe there instead of a CC.....I never knew that. I didn't fail the 'visual' at this first place because they didn't even take a look. So I order a CC, put it on as soon as I get it...and take it to a different shop as the first place seemed to be morons. So they pulled out that little laser scanner thing that looks like it came from the grocery store, scanned my VIN and my tags and blah blah blah.....it wouldn't ever register right...the guy (the head guy) said that there was a problem with the recourses in Austin or something, and if they continued to do it that way, it wouldn't go through until the problem got fixed with the database in austin (you know..they direct connect via the internet and get the info right on the spot for this test)....so he said he could base it off my engine itself...so I was like 'okay'....So he typed in a number (i guess the VIN) from the engine, and it came up as a '98 Integra RS 5 speed manual' blah blah blah...I was pretty impressed that all this info could be found from my engine...anyway, So he did the test as an OBDII test, because I had an 'Integra'....well it passed with flying colors..and when the final screen came up, he typed in a bunch of stuff, did a bunch of crap, and my '92 Civic was awarded my new Sticker as an OBDII pass....Dunno if what the guy did was illegal or whatever...all i know is that my '92 passed as an OBDII car because of my engine...it passed as a '98 Integra'. And I originally changed the cat because as soon as I realized I had no cat, I wouldn't pass the visual, much less the test itself. Got a cat, tested as an OBDII car, and now I have my sticker. This is all I can tell you about it
[Modified by hot_EF, 4:10 AM 7/11/2002]
[Modified by hot_EF, 4:12 AM 7/11/2002]
first off, i bought the car already with a swap....'92 CX with a b18b. I bought the car down in Bryan, TX. Car already had tags/inspection good through the end of the '02 year. Tried to get the title changed, Dallas County said I needed an emissions test done IN Dallas County...the town I purchased the car in doesn't have emissions laws....So I need it done in Dallas. Well, unfortunately, this was literally the exact same day that Texas got all those new machines, stricter laws blah blah blah blah. So I took the car in....it failed, but the guy said the machine was acting strange and that he'll do it again...he said simply that 'your RPM is too high'...and I was confused because how in the world would RPM matter for an emissions test? So they pulled the car back onto the dyno deal...this time I was watching the screen....the 'low' speed test was all fine....did it in 1st gear. then come time for the 'high' speed test, a HUGE note came on the screen that said 'perform this test in second gear'....well the guy never put it in second gear......again i 'failed' because the 'RPM was too high'....and I explained to him that it was probably because he didn't put it down into second gear....I mean at 25 mph in first gear the RPM is pretty dang high. I wasn't going to get screwed for HIS mistake (even if I would have failed had the test been performed properly)......so of course I told him to do it over. Well the shop was closing...so he recognized his mistake and told me to come back the next day. So I did....performed the test in second gear like it was supposed to...my HC's were way too high....so I immediately knew it was the cat (or lack thereof)....get home, look under my car, and sure enough, I have a test pipe there instead of a CC.....I never knew that. I didn't fail the 'visual' at this first place because they didn't even take a look. So I order a CC, put it on as soon as I get it...and take it to a different shop as the first place seemed to be morons. So they pulled out that little laser scanner thing that looks like it came from the grocery store, scanned my VIN and my tags and blah blah blah.....it wouldn't ever register right...the guy (the head guy) said that there was a problem with the recourses in Austin or something, and if they continued to do it that way, it wouldn't go through until the problem got fixed with the database in austin (you know..they direct connect via the internet and get the info right on the spot for this test)....so he said he could base it off my engine itself...so I was like 'okay'....So he typed in a number (i guess the VIN) from the engine, and it came up as a '98 Integra RS 5 speed manual' blah blah blah...I was pretty impressed that all this info could be found from my engine...anyway, So he did the test as an OBDII test, because I had an 'Integra'....well it passed with flying colors..and when the final screen came up, he typed in a bunch of stuff, did a bunch of crap, and my '92 Civic was awarded my new Sticker as an OBDII pass....Dunno if what the guy did was illegal or whatever...all i know is that my '92 passed as an OBDII car because of my engine...it passed as a '98 Integra'. And I originally changed the cat because as soon as I realized I had no cat, I wouldn't pass the visual, much less the test itself. Got a cat, tested as an OBDII car, and now I have my sticker. This is all I can tell you about it
[Modified by hot_EF, 4:10 AM 7/11/2002]
[Modified by hot_EF, 4:12 AM 7/11/2002]
07-10-2002, 07:35 PM
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Re: Emissions help....... (hot_EF)
That's a fair enough explanation. I think the message "perform in second gear" was probably just an idiot light, so to speak. As far as how he registered your car as a 98, i think that is probably "not in accordance with TX DPS rules and regulations", illegal? who knows. All I know is that I got a call from an inspector who knew a guy who got ticketed for not kneeling down to check brake lines behind the wheel. He reminded me to LOOK under each wheel at each inspection. At $275 a ticket, possible suspension of my license, our shop's license as well, I can't afford not to really. They are very strict.
So you did an ASM, then an OBD2 test. I didn't know there were alot of ppl converting their OBD1 cars to OBD2..hehe...Very lucky to have that "choice" really. You are supposed to scan the VIN, yeah, if that fails, type it manually, but our machine asks for the year of the car before asking for the VIN. They are independent. Maybe they used a Snap-On analyzer that pulls the VIN from a database that crossreferences the year, who knows...Worked out well for you in any event.
This new system is a pain in the butt. Mostly due to our machine manufacturer, their software programmers, and the fact that they based the software on Windows 98. That would explain why we get weird anomalies, and lockups every other day....jeez...It's also not pleasant to have to tell more and more people their cars are POSs...lol
So you did an ASM, then an OBD2 test. I didn't know there were alot of ppl converting their OBD1 cars to OBD2..hehe...Very lucky to have that "choice" really. You are supposed to scan the VIN, yeah, if that fails, type it manually, but our machine asks for the year of the car before asking for the VIN. They are independent. Maybe they used a Snap-On analyzer that pulls the VIN from a database that crossreferences the year, who knows...Worked out well for you in any event.
This new system is a pain in the butt. Mostly due to our machine manufacturer, their software programmers, and the fact that they based the software on Windows 98. That would explain why we get weird anomalies, and lockups every other day....jeez...It's also not pleasant to have to tell more and more people their cars are POSs...lol
07-10-2002, 07:42 PM
#16
Honda-Tech Member
Re: Emissions help....... (m0bile)
haha....yeah...i knew it wasn't in accordance, i just hope it wasn't illegal. if my car (well engine i should say) passed 'OBDII', then i'm not worried about it passing obd1 if they ever get the records straight...i just thought it was kinda cool that it was able to pass the OBDII emissions because they're supposed to be stricter. eh...oh well. the new system IS a pain....i've had a ton of friends who have gone places and the guys don't even know how to run the machines, much less try to perform the tests.
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