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poor mans h22 build

 
Old 11-11-2015, 02:56 PM
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What up. I figured I'd give y'all an update. I've put another 1000 miles on engine and have used zero oil hooray. Everything seems to be good besides the pos mitsuboshi timing belt. I swear it shrinks 1" after it gets hot. I stopped and got a gates today and will be installing this wknd
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Old 11-26-2015, 11:38 PM
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*Subscribed* I'm planning on doing this same job in a couple weeks. I am very curious how long it ends up taking for your new rings to seat in? So far for you looks like almost a month and a couple thousand miles???

I'm also surprised there was that much carbon buildup in your head... that's a LOT. I'd recommend a good fuel system cleaning, would be wise to get your injectors professionally serviced by someone like RC, but obviously the head work is the biggest thing. Try to avoid cheap gas and run a good fuel system cleaner like Redline SL-1 through your tank a couple times a year.

I'm a smog technician so I know from experience how important it is to keep your fuel system clean and functioning well to expect the best longevity and performance from an engine.

My car has a lot more miles than yours actually. Supposedly my head was rebuilt by previous owner but I burn some oil and smell oil burning (especially at WOT) so I'm assuming my rings are going out. (Haven't done a compression test yet but I will) I'll take pics of my block with the head off when its time. It'll be interesting to see how much carbon I have compared to you. That'll be the real indicator if the head was ever actually rebuilt on my car or not lol.
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Old 11-27-2015, 05:38 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Originally Posted by scarsofcarma View Post
*Subscribed* I'm planning on doing this same job in a couple weeks. I am very curious how long it ends up taking for your new rings to seat in? So far for you looks like almost a month and a couple thousand miles???

I'm also surprised there was that much carbon buildup in your head... that's a LOT. I'd recommend a good fuel system cleaning, would be wise to get your injectors professionally serviced by someone like RC, but obviously the head work is the biggest thing. Try to avoid cheap gas and run a good fuel system cleaner like Redline SL-1 through your tank a couple times a year.

I'm a smog technician so I know from experience how important it is to keep your fuel system clean and functioning well to expect the best longevity and performance from an engine.

My car has a lot more miles than yours actually. Supposedly my head was rebuilt by previous owner but I burn some oil and smell oil burning (especially at WOT) so I'm assuming my rings are going out. (Haven't done a compression test yet but I will) I'll take pics of my block with the head off hwhen its time. It'll be interesting to see how much carbon I have compared to you. That'll be the real indicator if the head was ever actually rebuilt on my car or not lol.
I was also amazed at how much carbon built up it had. I was surprised it was still running great. It took about 600-800 miles to seat the rings. But it never smoked or anything besides when I was engine breaking going down a very steep mountain. When I got to the bottom and gave it gas smoke poured out. That was at 400 miles. After that I started accel and deccel alot. At around 600-800 miles I felt it getting stronger.
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Old 11-27-2015, 07:51 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Originally Posted by sublimeluder View Post
I was also amazed at how much carbon built up it had. I was surprised it was still running great. It took about 600-800 miles to seat the rings. But it never smoked or anything besides when I was engine breaking going down a very steep mountain. When I got to the bottom and gave it gas smoke poured out. That was at 400 miles. After that I started accel and deccel alot. At around 600-800 miles I felt it getting stronger.
I was using gumout fuel system cleaner every 3months with shell 93. Now I run no ethanol 93. Good luck on your rebuild I hope it goes well. Will u be adding any go fast parts?
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Old 11-27-2015, 08:11 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

I gotta question regarding timing belt tension. I recently changed out a mitsuboshi belt for a gates.the mistsu was getting hot and shrinking causing it to whine. I installed the gates when it was about 30 out. It had the perfect amount of deflection I thought. The next day I took it for drive and when got hot it started to whine a little. So I checked the belt and it was tight with almost no deflection. Lol I'm sure y'all can tell by now I'm very picky about the car. So should it be this tight or should it have a little deflection when hot?
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Old 11-27-2015, 10:32 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Originally Posted by sublimeluder View Post
I gotta question regarding timing belt tension. I recently changed out a mitsuboshi belt for a gates.the mistsu was getting hot and shrinking causing it to whine. I installed the gates when it was about 30 out. It had the perfect amount of deflection I thought. The next day I took it for drive and when got hot it started to whine a little. So I checked the belt and it was tight with almost no deflection. Lol I'm sure y'all can tell by now I'm very picky about the car. So should it be this tight or should it have a little deflection when hot?
Honestly I've never had this issue before on any type of timing-belt piston engine I've ever done timing on.

Timing belts don't stretch that bad from ambient temperature. They get hotter than that simply from friction and tension (and motor temperature itself) as the motor is running. On the Prelude it should always be taught-est at the 'pull side' exhaust cam (counter-clockwise rotation on an H22) and also be very taught where it rides over both cam gears. The only part that should have any slack is leading up to the intake cam that gets compensated for by the tensioner.

Setting the tension is something you do before you run the motor using the service manual guidelines or basic common sense. Hand crank, check timing marks... check belt tension in at least 3 places... adjust, hand-crank some more to check again and repeat as necessary. There shouldn't be a whole lot of slack on the slack side, just enough to feel there is some slack. Less than a 1/4" deflection would be about right.

If there is noise coming from your timing belt, it's not the belt getting hot or cold its more likely a worn pulley-bearing or perhaps your belt is too tight causing some extra pre-load where there shouldn't be. I have yet to do a Prelude but I know timing belts are a bitch sometimes to set, especially by yourself. It's good to have someone else there to adjust something one way or another while your setting the belt tension.
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Old 11-30-2015, 06:21 PM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Originally Posted by scarsofcarma View Post
Honestly I've never had this issue before on any type of timing-belt piston engine I've ever done timing on.

Timing belts don't stretch that bad from ambient temperature. They get hotter than that simply from friction and tension (and motor temperature itself) as the motor is running. On the Prelude it should always be taught-est at the 'pull side' exhaust cam (counter-clockwise rotation on an H22) and also be very taught where it rides over both cam gears. The only part that should have any slack is leading up to the intake cam that gets compensated for by the tensioner.

Setting the tension is something you do before you run the motor using the service manual guidelines or basic common sense. Hand crank, check timing marks... check belt tension in at least 3 places... adjust, hand-crank some more to check again and repeat as necessary. There shouldn't be a whole lot of slack on the slack side, just enough to feel there is some slack. Less than a 1/4" deflection would be about right.

If there is noise coming from your timing belt, it's not the belt getting hot or cold its more likely a worn pulley-bearing or perhaps your belt is too tight causing some extra pre-load where there shouldn't be. I have yet to do a Prelude but I know timing belts are a bitch sometimes to set, especially by yourself. It's good to have someone else there to adjust something one way or another while your setting the belt tension.
Thanks I really appreciate the reply. I finally got it straightened out this wknd. Yea its crazy about the belt shrinking but it definitely does. I should have went OEM. I'm using a ks tuned style manual tentioner. I'm used to the spring doing it for me. I've got almost 3/8 deflection when cold. A little to loose it even flutters back and forth a little. But after 2-3min warm up the belt shrinks and its perfect. About 1/4" deflection or less and doesn't flutter at all. Craziness
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Old 12-02-2015, 04:00 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Originally Posted by sublimeluder View Post
Thanks I really appreciate the reply. I finally got it straightened out this wknd. Yea its crazy about the belt shrinking but it definitely does. I should have went OEM. I'm using a ks tuned style manual tentioner. I'm used to the spring doing it for me. I've got almost 3/8 deflection when cold. A little to loose it even flutters back and forth a little. But after 2-3min warm up the belt shrinks and its perfect. About 1/4" deflection or less and doesn't flutter at all. Craziness
Well the Honda manual doesn't show the best spot to check for deflection... but on other motors I've done its usually between the cam gears... like this... As you can see they use a straight-edge laying across the cam gears to be very precise about it.





Timing Belt Deflection Checking Point
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:32 PM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Hey guys I figured I'd give an update I haven't posted or been on here in a long time. I've put 35,000 on the rebuild so far and she's running great as she should. I've also did a bunch more work. I've installed PLM tri y header, flow master cat and yonaka catback. I replaced the suspension with kyb struts, moog control arm/ball joints and sway bar links. I replaced the AC clutch and pulley with oem honda. Lol Now I'm trying to decide if I should do another rebuild next summer with skunk2 pro1 and type s pistons. Or I could buy a h23a and put type s pistons then do cams later. Lol I should've Waited and built it the way I wanted the first time but anyways opinions please
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Old 08-24-2017, 06:33 PM
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Hey guys the lude is still running strong. I checked compression today it was 215 psi across all 4. I also did a valve adjustment and quitened it down a little. The valves was all to tight. I'm gonna start an actual proper build here in the next few months and was looking for advice. I just bought some skunk pro1 cams and all gaskets needed. The build is gonna consist of .
pro1 cams and valve train
type s pistons
Lightly ported head and IM
I've seen some good results with stock compression on pro1s so pistons are still up for debate. I'm gonna port the stock Intake manifold and remove butterflies. Do I need to get a spacer or just remove the plate itself? I found some h23a crank and rods for cheap but I'd have to pull the block to hAve machine shop take the ridge off top of cylinder. The ridge isn't to bad I got the pistons in and out no problem when I rebuilt. But if I use the h23a crank the piston rings would be riding on the ridge. I thought about using a dremmel tool but idk. Yall got any suggestions?
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Old 08-25-2017, 05:31 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

To do it "right" you should have a machine shop do the correct bore/ hone for the new pistons anyways.

The intake manifold gutting is as much for increased volume as reducing the turbulence in there, so keep the plate or a spacer, but totally gutted. depending on how far you go, you will need it backfilled with aluminum weld or such. I admit I was ghetto and used high heat JB weld. Also go to as big of throttle body as you can reasonably do. 70 mm will keep IAB function, but I went up to 76 mm and set it up to idle fine without it. Those ports were all filled as well. If you go with the H23 crank/ rods it needs the bigger volume and size, especially with the cams.

Be very careful on your setup if you go that route, although true H23A rods will give you more clearance than H23A1 rods in there. The valves get very close to the exhaust pockets on the pistons.

If you build this setup as you are thinking, and get it tuned right, it should make for a very fun car, mine was very similar and I loved it. I may rebuild again haha.
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Old 08-26-2017, 01:43 AM
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Originally Posted by snobordboy View Post
To do it "right" you should have a machine shop do the correct bore/ hone for the new pistons anyways.

The intake manifold gutting is as much for increased volume as reducing the turbulence in there, so keep the plate or a spacer, but totally gutted. depending on how far you go, you will need it backfilled with aluminum weld or such. I admit I was ghetto and used high heat JB weld. Also go to as big of throttle body as you can reasonably do. 70 mm will keep IAB function, but I went up to 76 mm and set it up to idle fine without it. Those ports were all filled as well. If you go with the H23 crank/ rods it needs the bigger volume and size, especially with the cams.

Be very careful on your setup if you go that route, although true H23A rods will give you more clearance than H23A1 rods in there. The valves get very close to the exhaust pockets on the pistons.

If you build this setup as you are thinking, and get it tuned right, it should make for a very fun car, mine was very similar and I loved it. I may rebuild again haha.
Thanks for the reply. I'm definitely gonna take a dremmel to the exhaust pockets if I go with the h23a crank. I'll have to do some more research on the manifold gutting. I'm not exactly sure what ya mean about back filling. I've talked to a few shops about taking the ridge off but every one just wants to bore/hone. I doubt they got much experience with frm so I'm very hesitate
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Old 08-26-2017, 08:28 PM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

I just saw a h23a cam thread where they lost hp/tq throughout midrange with pro1s. Is this common with h23a or was his setting off? I'd much rather have the midrange with h22 pro1 if so.
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Old 09-04-2017, 05:40 AM
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Hey guys I'm trying to decide on valve springs. I really don't wanna pay $500+ for pro series. I'm not gonna be reving that high. I'd like to get tuner springs and retainers but that would be $400. So I'm thinking supertech 60lb seat pressure or 80lb? I'd like to get the 60lb it would be easier on rocker pads bit what do yall think?
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Old 09-04-2017, 03:51 PM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Originally Posted by sublimeluder View Post
I just saw a h23a cam thread where they lost hp/tq throughout midrange with pro1s. Is this common with h23a or was his setting off? I'd much rather have the midrange with h22 pro1 if so.
There is no such thing as a cam that makes maximum midrange power AND maximum peak power... the bigger the lift and duration, the greater the peak performance will be, but at the expense of low and midrange performance. You have to decide which is most important to you.

Originally Posted by sublimeluder View Post
Hey guys I'm trying to decide on valve springs. I really don't wanna pay $500+ for pro series. I'm not gonna be reving that high. I'd like to get tuner springs and retainers but that would be $400. So I'm thinking supertech 60lb seat pressure or 80lb? I'd like to get the 60lb it would be easier on rocker pads bit what do yall think?
The more aggressive the cam profile is, the more seat pressure is required to keep from floating a valve at higher RPM. If you choose a moderate cam profile and don't intend to rev much over 8K... the 60's will likely be fine. More aggressive cam profiles need the 80's. Keep your valve lash on the loose side for greater oil film thickness on the rocker pads... they will live.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JRCivic1 View Post
There is no such thing as a cam that makes maximum midrange power AND maximum peak power... the bigger the lift and duration, the greater the peak performance will be, but at the expense of low and midrange performance. You have to decide which is most important to you.



The more aggressive the cam profile is, the more seat pressure is required to keep from floating a valve at higher RPM. If you choose a moderate cam profile and don't intend to rev much over 8K... the 60's will likely be fine. More aggressive cam profiles need the 80's. Keep your valve lash on the loose side for greater oil film thickness on the rocker pads... they will live.
Thanks for the reply. I picked pro1s because they normally gain tq/hp across the board on h22s. I guess I'll stick with the h22 crank and go with the 60lb supertech springs. I know pro1s have been ran with tuner springs and euro r springs with success. So they should hold up.
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Old 09-04-2017, 04:40 PM
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Subscribed...
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Old 09-05-2017, 05:45 AM
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I ran the Skunk2 Tuner springs with Pro1 cams in my car, revving to ~8500 on a 95 mm stroke, and had no issues. I was led to that path by Rosko, and he has lots of experience in the H engines, and ran the same setup for years on his car, and is a Skunk2 dealer, so he could have easily pushed me to spend more for Pro springs and bases.

Why are you debating sticking with the H22 crank now? As long as you use the right rods, and clay the engine before getting it all assembled, the H23 crank is fine, and the displacement is great to make more power, and the awesome torque that the H can make. If you are using Type-S pistons, and can find a set of stock rods from an H23A bluetop, or the equivalent in an aftermarket rod, you are right at deck height, and as long as you pay attention to the valve clearances and what adjustment range you have on the cams, you will be fine.

Just for your thought, I went from a stock H22A, to my Frankenstein H, so basically a bump in displacement and compression, same cams, same everything in regards to the engine, only minor adjustments to fuel via a piggyback, and was nearly a full second faster in the 1/4, and I have the car dialed in, so it is super consistent. When I went for the cams and opened up the breathing more and tuned it better, it was way faster still, but I never got the full potential out before I cratered it due to a slipped cam gear.
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Old 09-05-2017, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by snobordboy View Post
I ran the Skunk2 Tuner springs with Pro1 cams in my car, revving to ~8500 on a 95 mm stroke, and had no issues. I was led to that path by Rosko, and he has lots of experience in the H engines, and ran the same setup for years on his car, and is a Skunk2 dealer, so he could have easily pushed me to spend more for Pro springs and bases.

Why are you debating sticking with the H22 crank now? As long as you use the right rods, and clay the engine before getting it all assembled, the H23 crank is fine, and the displacement is great to make more power, and the awesome torque that the H can make. If you are using Type-S pistons, and can find a set of stock rods from an H23A bluetop, or the equivalent in an aftermarket rod, you are right at deck height, and as long as you pay attention to the valve clearances and what adjustment range you have on the cams, you will be fine.

Just for your thought, I went from a stock H22A, to my Frankenstein H, so basically a bump in displacement and compression, same cams, same everything in regards to the engine, only minor adjustments to fuel via a piggyback, and was nearly a full second faster in the 1/4, and I have the car dialed in, so it is super consistent. When I went for the cams and opened up the breathing more and tuned it better, it was way faster still, but I never got the full potential out before I cratered it due to a slipped cam gear.
I'd like to get tuner springs but can't find anywhere that sales them with retainers. Rosko doesn't have them listed I'll message him about prices. I'd love to go with 95 mm crank but looking at a few dynos theirs a loss in midrange with pro1s.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:59 AM
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That sounds like more of an issue with the tuning of the setup, or airflow restrictions elsewhere, than the stroke of the engine itself. If they are tuning the cam degrees for the upper range, I can see the midrange being lower on the curve, but it will still be making more power than a comparable engine with only a 90 mm stroke, as long as it can breathe. Having a large enough throttle body, intake manifold size and flow, and header, are key at this point, or the engine just chokes off.

When you compare the amount of fuel that the tune needs, in comparison to the amount of air that the engine is able to move, it should give a good idea. In that point, with a stock intake manifold and tb, and ebay header, on my engine with the Pro1 cams, it was able to provide enough fuel for the tune on stock JDM H22A injectors, through the whole range. Once I gutted the intake and went to a 76 MM TB, and a good header, I couldn't even tune the low map with the same injectors, let alone vtec tuning, as I was out of injector. I jumped to some ID 1000s, and retuned, and I was able to properly tune and keep everything where it should be, but it took quite a bit more fuel, showing that the engine was moving that much more air, and in turn, making much more power. Seat of my pants estimates, versus the trap speed calculations, since it died before we had the tune finished on the dyno, but it had another 35-40 hp once I opened the breathing up, on the same block/ head setup.
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Old 09-25-2017, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by snobordboy View Post
I ran the Skunk2 Tuner springs with Pro1 cams in my car, revving to ~8500 on a 95 mm stroke, and had no issues. I was led to that path by Rosko, and he has lots of experience in the H engines, and ran the same setup for years on his car, and is a Skunk2 dealer, so he could have easily pushed me to spend more for Pro springs and bases.

Why are you debating sticking with the H22 crank now? As long as you use the right rods, and clay the engine before getting it all assembled, the H23 crank is fine, and the displacement is great to make more power, and the awesome torque that the H can make. If you are using Type-S pistons, and can find a set of stock rods from an H23A bluetop, or the equivalent in an aftermarket rod, you are right at deck height, and as long as you pay attention to the valve clearances and what adjustment range you have on the cams, you will be fine.

Just for your thought, I went from a stock H22A, to my Frankenstein H, so basically a bump in displacement and compression, same cams, same everything in regards to the engine, only minor adjustments to fuel via a piggyback, and was nearly a full second faster in the 1/4, and I have the car dialed in, so it is super consistent. When I went for the cams and opened up the breathing more and tuned it better, it was way faster still, but I never got the full potential out before I cratered it due to a slipped cam gear.
I bought the tuner springs but couldn't find the matching retainers. Could I use stock retainers or aftermarket steel retainers?
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:39 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

Hey guys I need some help Im got s2 pro 1 cams and was planning on running tuner springs. But I tried to order some and they sent me alpha series. I don't think alpha springs can handle the pro1s so I'm sending them back. I really don't wanna spend $500 on springs. What would yall recommend? Will the supertech 60lb springs work with stock retainers?
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Old 10-02-2017, 07:48 AM
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Default Re: poor mans h22 build

I just ordered type s pistons and vms cam gears. I just gotta figure out what valve springs/ret.
Well I still gotta order chipped ecu and schedule a tunnine session. Hopefully I'll have this together soon

Last edited by sublimeluder; 10-02-2017 at 07:50 AM. Reason: Misspelled
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:45 AM
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I also need injectors that fit stock fuel rail. I'll probably get some refurbished 450 or 500 unless I find some new ones for cheap. Damn I was hoping I could do this build for $1,000 lol that's not gonna happen. So I need some advice on injectors and valve train please.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:57 AM
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I gotta find some 17s or fabricate something so i dont kill my header. I bottomed out and dented it a little. Hopefully not enough to affect performance
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