Altilude

Problem since solved by an embarrassingly simple solution

Since i'm a newb I'm not sure if I'm allowed to make official threads (: but I've seen enough of these over the last little while that I thought it would be great to have a pool of everyones information on what can cause this - more importantly - what can fix it (:

First of all, I have searched the forums for possible solutions, but it seems like a tangled web - and no one in particular has come back to say "the problem is solved" except for one guy who switched to a p28 w/ hondata or something.

This thread will most likely be hi-jacked by people who are obviously having different situations and setups - so I think it's only wise to be completely clear about the state of your car, equipment, and whether or not your possibly in limp etc.

Now for my problem

My car is a 92 4ws SI, with a (recently swapped) jdm h22a with the p13 ecu. OBD1 and It's basically bone stock.
the problem I am experiencing is bogging and hesitation (obviously) heh, in the 2 - 3.2 grand rpm range. The interesting part of the problem is that it does not occur within the first few minutes of driving after a fresh (from cold we're talking) startup. My vehicle is not currently throwing any codes (and the check engine light *does* work). Even when the car is bogging - once it gets above the 3.5g range throttle response is fine and vtec kicks in like normal at around 5g - so i'm NOT in limp mode. It is weird at cruise in the 2 - 3.2g range because (as i've read someone else describe it) it feels like a weird tugging that you feel in the back of your seat - even though you are holding the throttle at a constant setting.

the solutions i've come across are as follows, and the reasons i've eliminated some of them.

fuel filter - mine is brand new.
FPR - I have another one, so changing it is on my to do list. update - has been swapped - no difference.
Fuel Injectors - I have newer ones on my car - granted they are USDM not JDM - can anyone confirm that they aren't both 345cc? besides that it wouldn't make sense that the car drives fine at first start up - and then gets worse later. I have the JDM ones but haven't swapped them in yet - on my to do list if I can't find something else. Update - Swapped - but to incorrect injectors see below no fix.
spark plugs - brand new - the old ones i pulled were a nice golden brown so i don't think i'm running lean.
plug wires - doesn't really make sense - because the car operates fine when colder, idles normally etc - upper range of vtec is fine also.
Other ignition related (dizzy coil etc) - doesn't really make sense for reason stated above. Update: Replaced Cap and Rotor - some improvement - not end all.CORRECT TIMING HAS SINCE SOLVED MY ISSUES
Vacuum leaks - correct me if i'm wrong - but i'd really notice that at idle - and I idle fine, car drives fine at first start up.
EGR - this is what i thought it might be, but it's not throwing a code - appears to operate fine, and I've even replaced the gasket to minimize leaks. - furthermore when I had it off I cleaned it with carb cleaner and a toothbrush, including the part where it mounts to the intake manifold - as suggested in another post I read. update - jerry rigged two and tested no difference
Knock Sensor Now i've read lots about this nasty device - and by the account of the fellow that switched to the p28 and having his hesitation problem go away - it really leads me to believe it is this - I've also heard that a knock sensor can go and NOT throw a code? any truth to this? - today i crawled under my car and unplugged it - sprayed it with some contact cleaner to make sure it was a good contact.. I'm thinking that perhaps it's fine when it's cold - but as the block heats up it's ability to transmit gets worse or something. I don't particularly want to pay 110 US on something if I don't have to, and since i'm not getting the code i'm a little reluctant to do so - I do believe the people that have bogging/hesitation as well as there vtec not kicking in are in limp mode because of the knock sensor. But my vtec still kicks in - even right after i've bogged and then sore into vtec.
IAB's ?? i'm really not sure about this one - and i'm basing my guess on that fellow who changed his ecu to p28 (which doesn't control the IAB's or something) - is it possible a solenoid here could be wrong? update - added second check valve in series with the other just in case - no difference so i removed it
Other Induction leaks (gaskets etc) meh i think that would really disrupt a nice smooth idle. UPDATE: Replaced Throttle body gasket w/ tps change(see below) - no difference
TPS - not ruling this out - but once again no codes - Idle fine, car drives fine at first startup - etc etc - perhaps it has a worn groove in the throttle area that gives 2 - 3.2g at cruise heh. UPDATE: replaced TPS with entire throttle body w/ tps arrangement from my H23 - No difference
Thermostat - this one was suggested to me today by a mechanic at a honda dealership - I can't really wrap my head around it, but the duration of 5 - 10 mins of driving before the quirkyness appears has me wondering, and of course the fact that it isn't electrical - so it wouldn't throw any codes. I always let my car warm up a bit too - not necessarily to the half mark but atleast one quarter mark up. I can't see how this would give me the tugging sensation I am starting to believe that my car may be a bit on the "cold side" although at cruise the temp is right in the middle and never moves. THe reason I think it may be a bit cold is because the rad fan never comes on (and i know the rad fan works because i jerry rigged the relay in the underhood relay box) , even after what seems like pro-longed idling - granted the temperature has been cooler later (2 - 5 Deg C). If my car is cold - it could be the case (as i understand it) that the thermostat is stuck open? allowing a continual bypass back to the rad for cooling 0 and with the external temps as low as they are perhaps the fluid is too cold. I just fail on connecting that with the tugging/hesitation/bogging - so if anyone could elaborate on that it would be great. I thought if anything - if the ecm detects coldness it would run richer not leaner - and bogging is usually a symptom of leanness is it not? Update: Replaced Thermostat - some twitchiness at cruise appears (on first accounts) to have been solved - still having bog/hesitation when accelerating thru 2 - 3.2g.

That's all i've been bouncing between, if someone else suggests something to check I will - i'm not afraid to use my helms and a multimeter. I just really want to get this fixed - because in traffic I feel like a little ricer trying to keep it in the hi-revs so i don't have to deal with the bog/power loss. My engine really feels great otherwise - especially at first startup (i never push it too hard when it's getting to the middle temp mark), and when the vtec kicks in etc.

Suggestions from others:

RESET ECU
O2 SENSOR
p28 ecu w/ hondata (replace p13 with it and I should be fine)
COIL



similar problems or suggestions i'm all ears.


Modified by Altilude at 11:21 AM 12/21/2004


Modified by Altilude at 4:25 PM 12/22/2004

Modified by Altilude at 10:08 PM 12/28/2004


Modified by Altilude at 6:17 PM 12/29/2004


Modified by Altilude at 4:05 PM 12/30/2004

fre$h

I'm having the same problem, but 3x worse. I think I've (help of other honda-tech.com members) have solved it. I'm running no map sensor since im a 96 body with an earlier year engine. Tomorrow I'm getting the map sensor and hopefully installing it. It might possibly have something to do with your throttle cable. On my jdm h22a my throttle cable was faulty, and had to get it replaced. Hope you get it solved.

fre$h

junlude19

I had the same problem and went through just about all the things you did. I switched over to a p28 and running uberdata and havent had the problem since. When running the p28 it bypasses the secondary runners and knock sensor. Doesnt help you much but sooner or later you are going to have to switch over to some other ecu considering you have no other tunning options with a p13 besides a VAFC or Fields

Altilude

yea at some point - but right now i'm bone stock and there is no reason why a p13 shouldn't work flawlessly with an h22a - if everything is setup right (;. I don't have any plans to do any major mods until I have a good stock setup to work from. I could mask these problems now - but I really want to get to the bottom of what is actually causing the situation - and fix it. (:

tomorrow - weather pending, I plan on

1) swapping the FPR with the one that is still on the jdm fuel rail,
2) possibly swapping an IAB solenoid (although at present I can't get the f'n thing off the vacuum tank - i swear honda drops super glue rather than lock tight on their screws before putting them in - but it should be ok just to test with the vacuum tank dangling and all)
3) possibly swapping usdm h22a injectors for the jdm h22a injectors - but that seems rather pointless to me. I'm almost positive they're both 345cc. plus I can only reuse the o-ring set so many times haha.
4) jerry rigging two egr valves (one mounted, another plugged in) and going for a rip to see if that fixes anthing. I've done this before and quickly thought to blame the egr - but i didn't drive for long enough - so the problem would maybe appear.

i'll try to do it sequentially - but the test drives are unfortunatley quite lengthy because you have to give it warm up time. i'm also gonna double check all my vacuum lines and make sure check valves are where they are supposed to be etc.

I'll also try to confirm this tomorrow - but i'm not sure if the problem goes away when I have cruise engaged in that rpm range. - it would be interesting to know what the difference is between having cruise maintain a 2 - 3g rpm and myself.

gimme back my low end torque, and powerband

Altilude

today (dec 21, 2004)

1) I swapped the FPR for the jdm one - no real difference.
2) adjusted the slack in the throttle cable, while maintaining a good idle speed. (sort of unrelated but ya never know)
3) added a second IAB check valve - I figured two in series wouldn't be bad even if they both worked - or if one worked and the other didn't. I lacked the oomf to jack the car and crawl underneath and f with the IAB control Solenoid - I don't think it's the prob, cuz when i yank vacuum 13 I get the suck at idle. I didn't particularly want to rev my car to 5g in neutral to test the suck - besides i'm a one man operation and it's hard to be in two places at the same time.
4) I jerry rigged two egr's one is mounted to the block with the vacuum and the other was plugged in... of course i get the CEL - (it's weird comes on after you go over 40 - or after an elapsed time or something)

I think that's it for today... i'll update my first post as well.

still planning to (but not today)

1) switch to jdm injectors.
2) possibly change entire throttle body with tps - I have a spare one here, the one mounted is 11A0 and the one that i believe is off my h23a is 10BO - I hope i can do it in place on the car but getting at the bottom mounted FITV looks to be annoying - I will have to bleed the rad fluid once i get it back and connected -correct?


Modified by Altilude at 11:29 AM 12/21/2004

junlude19

if you have a h22a and running the jspec ECU and do not have the jdm injectors wouldnt that be a problem? jdm injectors are 345cc and usdm are 295cc ? Im going to stick my p13 and mess around with it.

Power5hift

I use to have the hesitation between 2k-3k rpm and I recently swaped my thermostat with a mugen thermostat/fan switch and now no more hesitation. I also installed a hondata IM gasket at the same time so I don't know which one fixed the hesitation.

machine4321

i still say that its the knock sensor......mine was bad for it untill it broke and i replaced the ecu with a p08 with no knock at it was an instant bottom end powere adder ..

Altilude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by junlude19 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you have a h22a and running the jspec ECU and do not have the jdm injectors wouldnt that be a problem? jdm injectors are 345cc and usdm are 295cc ? Im going to stick my p13 and mess around with it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not so sure
USDM h22a and JDM h22a obd1's are 345cc
USDM h22a4 and 5th gen jdm h22a's are 290cc
h23 is 240 or something.

that being said - I'm not exactly sure where my USDM h22 injectors originally came from, a friend in calgary used them in his 96 civ hatchback w/ h22a(#?), before he supercharged it... but i'm not sure if he had converted to obd1 or not. - seeing as 96 plus were obd2 there is a chance i do still have the 290cc obd2 injectors. BUt isn't there a difference between peak and hold and saturated with obd1 and obd2? would my car have been able to run at all if they were the saturated kind instead?

In any case I changed them to the JDM injectors today - I would have test results - but being the dumbass that I am when I was taking the main fuel line in headcap nut off, I twitched and heard the ol' tink ta tink - with no thud ): (this being 2 days after I warned someone else in a thread not to drop the washers or something) - in any case - i searched for that f'n thing for like an hour and a half - we're talking mirror - flashlight and magnet (even though i don't know if it's magnetic or not) - I jacked the car and was looking from underneath too - i swear the f'n thing vanished! I looked around the ground - I shook the car as violently as I could (but really i'm pretty gentle on it.. i just can't be mean to it) I then wandered around my house looking for ***** to disassemble to replace it - thinking just a nut would do the trick - of course I later realized that it's center bored - so even if I found a nut it would still squirt out the top - HAHA. I can see myself now - wondering why my car isn't starting while i douse the engine bay in fuel.

so now i got to get to get to a auto store to get a new one... good thing I got the ol jdm rail to take with me to test in the store. I'll probably still try to find it tomorrow before when it's a bit brighter out. I can't believe I fumbled.. F@#$%

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Power5hift &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I use to have the hesitation between 2k-3k rpm and I recently swaped my thermostat with a mugen thermostat/fan switch and now no more hesitation. I also installed a hondata IM gasket at the same time so I don't know which one fixed the hesitation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

that is good to know - that the thermostat possibly solved your prob - my thermostat arrived today - so possibly they'll have that headcap fuel nut thingy and the thermostat and I might be able to test both out tomorrow. Chances are i'll be waiting like a week for that fuel nut just to spite me. I think if a IM gasket was a problem the idle would be really shitty too, because at idle it would be alot easier for the engine to suck it's own air right from the leak in the gasket then from down a long intake plenum... which would make it seem to run really rough at idle - just my thoughts.

thanks to all for their thoughts and comments

thehondaguru

All h22 injectors are 345cc. I dont know where the hell you get 295 from.

I bet its the knowck sensor but I am with you on the whole not wanting to pay over 100 bucks for something that might not fix the problem.

showbiz

incorrect....H22a1,a OBD1 92-95 345cc h22a1,a4,a OBD2 96-01 290cc try swapping a known good ecu and intake air control valve also


Modified by sedanman at 7:17 PM 12/21/2004

thehondaguru

oh my bad obd1. he doesnt care about obd2 **** anyway

Altilude

Dec 22nd (:

Today I found my fuel line capped nut - man was I stoked.

So with the injectors which i "thought" were jdm h22a I boot up the car, and it runs horribly lean and bogs terribly (like undriveable - i didn't even pull out of the drive) - I've apparently been ripped off by the stupid shop that did my swap...

If you want the long story it goes like this.

1) my original jdm injectors went "missing" from the shop we're they were doing the swap.
2) so the shop tried to give me my car with h23 injectors, and the p14 ecu.
3) I noticed it was the p14 ecu and said "put the p13 ecu in their - and wire up the vtec"
4) so they put the p13 ecu in - and obviously the car hates the injectors - bogs runs to lean. I'm scratching my head and thinking about it...because they fail to mention the fact they put the h23 injectors in.
5) I have to get home.. so I take the car with p14 running, p13 in hand drive soflty.
6) I then figure out the injectors must have been the cause - so I call shop and say "I want my real injectors"...the shop understands they've f'd up but they're still taking their sweetass time...
7) so meanwhile I buy some USDM h22a injectors off of a friend in calgary. (these run great with the p13/ecu vtec kicks in - and everything)
8) then these injectors arrive from the shop - they are supposed to be my JDM h22a injectors, they amazingly turned up.
9) so today I chuck them in - and the car bogs almost as if it's on h23 injectors - possibly worse because the idle fluctuates bad also.

so in any case I can't viably check atm if their is any difference to my bogging in 2 - 3.2g range between the USDM and JDM h22a injectors, because I still have not my jdm h22a injectors. The only reason for testing that in the first place was to determine if the USDM ones my friend had sent me were obd1 or obd2 - I guess phoning him would have been easier.

I still plan to possibly do the thermostat today.. never done it on the h22a so should be interesting and messy. any tips? I don't particularly want to drain all the fluid - can I just drain a bit so I can access it - then fill it back up - bleed it - and i should be good to go?

Power5hift

It's going to be messy. You need to drain the coolant from the radiator. Even when you drain it from the radiator a lot of coolant will come out of the thermostat.

Altilude

ok - changed the thermostat. man was that bottom bolt a pain to get out - putting it back in was surprisingly easier - too many hoses and ***** in the way though. added to the fact your always gimped over the car trying to access this stuff. As an aside - I didnt' really read the thing about the pin being up until afterwards - The one I put in i'm pretty sure didn't even have a pin, I'm almost pretty positive because I studied the thing for a "this way up mark" like the one that I took out had. - can anyone comment on the function of this pin, and it's purpose in orientation?

In any case - the car did seem to warm up quicker than usual.. and when I took it for a drive I *think* the twitchiness at cruise is completely gone. no more tugging as I drive along. However I do still get some bog when I try to rip thru 2 - 3g in 2nd and 3rd. - and I felt some twichiness there once or twice. It does feel really digital though - almost like a yes no yes ..ok this speed... 1010101010111 or something hehe (: starting to seem like maybe tps.

I did notice today removing the whole intake system that my air filter isn't the cleanest looking thing - and i'm sure that would destroy some low/midrange. maybe i'll get a K&N one for the stock box.

So I'm not sure what is next for me to try - I guess a new throttle body - I'll need a new gasket though ): - I have my throttle body from my H23, and that engine never did the twitchy/bog hesitation thing. If I just put that throttle body on complete with a TPS that has never been removed - I shouldn't have to do any TPS adjusting correct? I"ll have to bleed the rad again though cuz of that FITV.

MackDad

I had bogging problem similar to your condition, but it was intermittent...So one day I get out of class and the engine won't crank (No fire). Immediately I knew it was either the coil or the ignitor so I put a test light on the ignitor and it was working, but the coil wasn't. Swapped out the coil, started her up, drove her, and have had no bogging problems since, and it's been 3 months. The only other thing that happened was my exhaust cam jumped a tooth right after I changed coil figures

junlude19

doesnt the ecu rely on the TPS for timing changes when throttle is moved

Ministry

I'm surprised nobody said this yet, but have you taken a look at your O2 sensor lately?

I've been struggling with the exact same problem you guys have for over a year. I did most of the things you mentioned (fuel filter, plugs, etc.) to no avail. Then I read somewhere that it is possible to have a malfunctioning O2 sensor without throwing a code. Essentially the sensor can still work most of the time, but sometimes send the wrong voltage back to the ECU in a certain RPM range or whatever. The ECU will interpret the bad info from the O2 sensor and consequently run a fuel map that is less then ideal.

Basically it can think you're running lean and dump extra fuel into the mix, causing you to bog. How's your mileage been lately?

Anyway I pulled out my O2 sensor and, lo and behold, it looked like ****. It was caked in carbon deposits (from running rich) at the bottom and coated with a white residue towards the top. The thing looked burned up to me, and the only CEL code I was throwing was 12 (EGR).

I replaced the O2 sensor about three weeks ago and I haven't noticed any hesitation since than. In addition, my gas mileage went up significantly.

Might be worth a try, but you probably want to look at your sensor before buying a new one, because they aren't cheap, even with the good deals at oxygensensors.com.

Sorry about the long post

guess its not that long now that I look at it

Altilude

thanks for the reply and suggestion...

I have thought about the 02, but I really want to try the "cheaper" stuff before I get to the knock and 02 (given their price). It does make sense to me that it could be one of these sensors - I just really hope it isn't. as I've said in previous posts it does feel like a really digital twitching at times, so it could very well be a sensor gone hairy, or possibly the tps?

Today I ordered a new Throttle body gasket - so probably tomorrow I can try the TPS with new throttle body, apart from that I tested the injector resistors and got 6.3 ohms across the board which is right in the ballpark of the helms 5-7ohm suggested reading. might do some more testing to the ignition system today too. meh.

thanks for the help (:

Ministry

so how's your gas mileage?

Altilude

excellent I would think - sorry I meant to answer that question in my previous post - I get about 310 miles to a full tank or so - I'm currently thinking my low fuel light isn't operable - so that's when I chicken out and refill.

Also I noticed today, I have these two extra wires that aren't connected to anything that come from the Y split of the connectors that go the distributor. One is black and one is white - what are these wires for? Someone was fiddling with it because it has this green connector spliced on very haphazardly - what are the black and white wires supposed to go to? better not be something that advances or retards timing (: here are some pics.





p.s. and don't mind my dirty tranny - cleaning it is on my to do list as well (; I dont' like using degrease in my drive (:

Modified by Altilude at 6:00 PM 12/23/2004


Modified by Altilude at 6:07 PM 12/23/2004

Ministry

Actually, it depends on how you drive, but your mileage might not be that great. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought 4th gen ludes could hold about 15 gallons. So 310 miles on, lets say, 14 gallons of fuel ---&gt; about 22mpg. That's not awful, and if you rev your motor up a lot I'd say its normal. But if you're not driving like a maniac I think you should get better mileage.

For example, today I filled my tank after 248 miles. It took 8.8 gallons (lol econobox) to do this, so I made about 28 mpg. Before I replaced the O2 sensor I was getting about the same mileage as you. My motor is USDM H22A4 converted to OBDI running a P13, same setup as you minus the higher compression ratio you enjoy due to your JDMness. Granted, my car is several hundred pounds lighter than yours, but I am by no means gentle with the throttle. I might be wrong but I think we should get about the same mileage. Just take a look at your O2 sensor, it costs you nothing.

If I'm wrong about the lude fuel capacity than disregard this whole post

mgags7

im gonna replace my o2 right before my tuning next week....my car runs so rich right now im sure the thing is crap....

and the 4th gen can hold just under 16 gallons...15.9....

Spn_BB2

ooo nice thread, i shoulda searched before i created mine

Altilude

Update: 26 Dec 2004.

MEh,.. getting so fed up with this - but I have to solve it...

Pulled the underdash fuse cover today and checked Fuse 23 (it is fine)
because of this thread here https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1083380

I also checked fuse 9, because from the helms page 23-118 it says if neither of your fans come on under all conditions to check it - I saw there was a funny blue wire wrapped around one leg of the fuse (9), and routed all the way to the trunk so I followed this wire that wasn't attached to anything, it was probably for a sub or something that someone had wired thru that fuse in the past. I thought it may have been grounding out or creating other weird karma so I ensure that it could no longer do that (plan to remove it entirely just didn't feel up to dismantling my interior today) checked fuse 9 - and it was fine as well.

so thinking maybe the ground wire was the prob, I let the car warm up - no rad fan even after 15+ minutes of idling - so I decide to take it for a wee boot, and it starts out ok then bogs terribly, then twitchy as all hell (thank god i'm not driving on ice or something).. so i'm totally frustrated.. so I get home.. and unplug the COIL right away (by the way - is that safe to do? heh, I know with aircraft you are not supposed to touch the ignitor boxes for like 15 mins to let everything diffuse) I test the primaries (A, C and B) against the secondary and get a pretty middle of the range 17.8k Ohms type resistance. I then check the primary winding resistance between A and B - and get 1.1 ohms - which is out of the helm's range. the helm's suggests 0.6 - 0.8 ohms so i'm 0.3 above the high end of that range. The helms does suggest the best ambient temp of 20 degree celcius (68F) so I've waited about 20 minutes - but testing it I'm still getting 1.1 ohms.

So now - obviously this is out of spec - but I need your opinions - do you think this will solve my problems? can .3 ohms make that much difference? and why is it RPM specific?

Failing all this I will still reluctantly change my throttle body w/ tps in the near future.

P.S. and oh does ne1 know where those 2 wires in the photos I provided above are supposed to go to? thanks.