Innovation

So basically all stock motors should all have oil pump and bearing failure because they are not running a damper? Honda didnt think so.

Pump and bearing failure happens, it happens whether you have a damper, a underdrive pulley or a stock pulley. Fatigue from mileage, etc (so many reasons to list)

Thats one of the reasons I wanted to use the UR underdrive crank pulley in the project article build up Im working on, if it works with out any problems (as Im expecting it to) then we will all know that the problems people report are not directly related the the underdrive pulleys.

If failures really were attributed to the lack of a damper, you guys really need to think about these 2 things:

If one motor fails, that heppens to be running an underdrive crank pulley. How can another run for over 5 years with out a problem using the same pulley?

How can a stock Honda engine run for over 100,000 miles with out a damper?

If it were really torsional vibrations causing these failures, dont you think it would be something that would occur on every engine that under drive or non damper pulleys are being used on? Does one motor have torsional vibrations while the other doesnt? If so, how can you tell the difference? Ill make sure to pick one up that doesnt have torsional vibration issues next time I pick up another motor

I think it has to do with people finding the easist thing to blame failures on and going with it, well before they ever really look into the actual cause.

Im going to beat the living hell out of this motor, no balance shafts and a set of UR under drive pullies... I will be making a decent amount of power, spinning the motor pretty far past what most H owners would consider "safe"

So, we shall see.....

Daemione

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So basically all stock motors should all have oil pump and bearing failure because they are not running a damper? Honda didnt think so.</TD></TR></TABLE>
What Honda engines don't have one?

Not that I'm the end-all resource, but I've never seen one without.

Innovation

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Daemione &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
What Honda engines don't have one?

Not that I'm the end-all resource, but I've never seen one without.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not actually a damper that you see in the stock Honda crank pulley, read the first post above

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"><FONT COLOR="red">The pulleys on most of the new import and smaller domestic engines have an elastomer (rubber ring) incorporated into the pulley that looks similar to a harmonic damper. The elastomer in the OEM pulley serves as an isolator, which is there to suppress natural vibration and noise from the engine itself, the A/C compressor, P/S pump, and alternator. This is what the manufacturers call NVH (Noise Vibration & Harshness) when referring to noticeable noise and vibration in the passenger compartment. It is important to note that in these applications, this elastomer is somewhat inadequate in size, as well as life span, to act as an effective torsional damper. If you look at the pulleys on some of the imports there is no rubber to be found at all. We have samples of these, mostly from Acura/Honda, Nissan, and 1.8L VW's, to mention a few. </FONT></TD></TR></TABLE>

Daemione

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Innovation &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its not actually a damper that you see in the stock Honda crank pulley, read the first post above </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't care what it's called - I was asking what Honda engines come without them, according to your/Unorthodox's claims.

The H, F, K, B, and D series all come from the factory with that rubber ring . . . . What else is there?

machine4321

none of them come with dampers ....
and ctr obviously come with out any rubber cushion

Hawkze_2.3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Daemione &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't care what it's called - I was asking what Honda engines come without them, according to your/Unorthodox's claims.

The H, F, K, B, and D series all come from the factory with that rubber ring . . . . What else is there?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Like machine4321 said, the Civic Type R pulley is solid--

LudeyKrus

for one of the few truly informative posters left on here

Although I am typically hesitant to fully believe a manufacturer's claims on their own products, I am more faithful with some of their claims due to their knowledge on the matters. I am familiar w/ the crank problems possible in some of the Miatas once built up, and they reason their deductions fairly well in my opinion.

The real meat and potatoes of the post, though, will be your running the pullies for many hard miles and inspection of the bearings afterwards.

I have never been convinced that the dampers were necessary; was it that last set of PM's we had that spurred you to try this out, or were you thinking about it beforehand?

ProjectLudeSiR

Yeah all hondas have torsional vibration, but some have more than others.
For example A honda with 400+ Hp reving to 10k rpm has more
vibration than a honda with 200hp reving to 7000 or 8000 rpm.
thats why one honda can last 5 yrs with a ur pulley than the other Honda.

In my opinion if your gonna Rev past 9,500rpm get a Dampner.
If not stay with the stock crank pulley.
And my advice is stay away from UR pulleys.

alphajesse

link
link
Toyota and Dinan on the issue Toyota is discussing I4 engines, Dinan I6
Rolls Royce

Shakes

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by alphajesse &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">link
link
Toyota and Dinan on the issue Toyota is discussing I4 engines, Dinan I6
Rolls Royce
</TD></TR></TABLE>




http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=5 from above, but this is the official webpage of Dinan engineering.

mike_belben@yahoo.com

you beat me to it jesse

sh00rik

Im asking a question here, not stating anything:
I know fundamentally, engines are similar in design, however, are Honda engines and Toyota/BMW (using example set forth) designed the same? I understand those articles state the importance of the dampning material/balancer for Toyota and BMW engines, but can we apply the same to our Honda engines? Im just curious.

89sih22a

as shown in the dinan diagram i can understand what they are saying but what if you have a light flywheel wouldent in theory
the bearing farthest from the fly not take as much force due to the lighter weight so lighter crank pully plus fly no p/s a/c normal 200+hp would seem real safe imo right?

Shakes

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 89sih22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">as shown in the dinan diagram i can understand what they are saying but what if you have a light flywheel wouldent in theory
the bearing farthest from the fly not take as much force due to the lighter weight so lighter crank pully plus fly no p/s a/c normal 200+hp would seem real safe imo right?</TD></TR></TABLE>

if you are not runing AC or PS i dont see why you wouldnt be safe runing an aftermarket pulley. but with the one or two added pieces putting escess force on the pulley with no dampening of any form; i feel it adds too much to the whole process and the level of "safety" for it diminishes.

Dai_Ca_Vietnam_H22a4

About how many horsepower to the wheel and torque do you really gain from all this? I would hook one up to my car if it is significant.

LINK76

if your building your engine from the buttom up, and your block is well balanced ( turned crank, shot penned rods, and strenghtend main bearing caps. it Would Matter how light of a crank pulley or Flywheel you have? right?

I guess the type R motor were well engineer; therefore, so they don't need the damper pulley

ranta18

So if you're building a drag engine that requires no alternator, ac, ps, etc are you saying you don't need a pulley at all? If the stock pulley doesn't do any harmonic balancing, why use one at all if you don't need it to drive anything?

DCFIVER

I have no solid proof of damage by these pullies, I just aviod them based on my education and knowledge of the I-4's(specifically hondas) inherent vibrations. No matter how well balanced an engine is you will never cancel out the vibrations caused by the pistons. On the other hand To all those that say they've used them with no problems I say SHOW US YOUR BEARINGS.

v4lu3s

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cb7-R &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have no solid proof of damage by these pullies, I just aviod them based on my education and knowledge of the I-4's(specifically hondas) inherent vibrations. No matter how well balanced an engine is you will never cancel out the vibrations caused by the pistons. On the other hand To all those that say they've used them with no problems I say SHOW US YOUR BEARINGS.</TD></TR></TABLE>

please explain how a solid metal pulley can possibly cancel a vibration?

mike_belben@yahoo.com

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by v4lu3s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

please explain how a solid metal pulley can possibly cancel a vibration?</TD></TR></TABLE>

i dont see anything in his statement to imply that he felt they could.

ranta18

Or even better... how does the CTR pulley cancel vibrations in a CTR turning 9K from the factory? Seems like they just needed a pulley to run the alternator and made it as simple as possible. I could see if it weighed a lot that they might have intended it to do something.

For a drag car w/ no accessories - Bearings can be checked after each weekend, oil pump gear can be upgraded to a harder one like Prodrive, crank can be balanced. Make sure each rod and piston combo weigh the same.

A lot of the info out there on harmonic balancers is for V engines and not I-4s.

mike_belben@yahoo.com

reguarding frequencies, the human ear can detect roughly 20 HZ to 20,000 HZ. thats 19,980 possible frequencies and only covers the range of hearing. i believe all matter has a resonant frequency and every engine combination will resonate at its own unique frequency,, sort of like fingerprinting. harmonic failure is like winning the lottery, the odds are slim that youll hit the right frequency for long enough to induce failure and dont forget our engines are not steady state operated in most cases. how many of you havent won the lottery yet but still think you might? how many havent been in a serious car accident but still carry liability insurance? how many have medical and dental though they are healthy?

i look at dampners like that. i dont wanna be the lucky caller.

this thread would probably be greatly improved if everyone read that dinan article or most any other on crankshaft harmonics.

if one engine suffers harmonic induced failure and one does not, it probably means that the "major criticals" were not experience for long enough to amplify until destruction. a simple matter of probability where the odds have been in our favor. i would bet that the slightest changes to an engine can alter its resonant frequency, probably right down to motor mounts, A/F ratio, ignition timing, intake or exhaust manifold changes and so on.

i recently disassembled a caterpillar diesel engine with no unusual abuse. it had a 4" crankshaft journal and had snapped in half while running (i was told it didnt actually stall!) and i dont find it coincidental that the breakage occured at the first journal away from the balancer.

here is a video of the tacoma narrows bridge collapse. i think its a pretty clear example of resonant frequencies amplifying themselves until failure.
http://www.enm.bris.ac.uk/rese...r.mpg

regarding flywheels, i believe the effectiveness is in how much mass is along the outer circumference of the unit. lengthening the radius (distance from centerline to perimeter) or retaining more mass along the perimeter will increase the effectiveness of a flywheel.
i personally believe the flywheel absorbs twisting motions in the crankshaft more effectively at its end, whereas the crank twists and wobbles more the further you get from the flywheel (sort of like shaking a fishing pole) and therefore a dampner is required at that end to dissipate the energy creating the resonance as heat.

another thing, strike a steel flywheel and strike and aluminum one. the rings are much different. i wonder if aluminum dampens vibration more effectively than steel,, i suspect it does.

whether V configuration or inline, combustion is not a smooth process, all crankshaft are pulsed and jerked along. perhaps inline configuration is less complex regarding bobweights, but i wouldnt rule this out just because something is inline 4. and i certainly wouldnt make any claim that harmonics have much concern for brand name.

*edit*
as for honda not using them on CTR and many D15's.. honda is first and foremost a business whos bottom line is profitability. no vehicle is free from real world compromise. honda could have simplied played that lottery, know that it would be cheaper to warrantee the 15 oddball engines that landed on their lucky frequency than to pay for engineering and manufacture of the dampners. the ones you do see tend to be on cars where smoothness was more expected,, accords, EX's and such.


Modified by mike_belben@yahoo.com at 9:08 AM 6/11/2005

Innovation

Mike,
Thank you for your input on the subject...

To some up what you siad above, it can happen but its not likely...

Yield

You can't get around physics, and why take the risk? Here's what endyne has to say abou the topic:

Let me begin by saying that we have always called the pulley on the accessory drive end on the Honda cranks Harmonic Balancers. People never seemed to understand what we were talking about and so the word "pulley" was frequently used to avoid confusion. If you look carefully at a Honda "pulley", you'll find that it's not a single piece of metal. Typically, there's a nodular iron or steel hub and another "ring" of iron or steel surrounding it containing the belt grooves. The two parts are joined by a rubber layer, which is highly compressed and sandwiched between them. Why rubber? If you notice, many four cylinder engines over the years have used counter rotating shafts to help make the engine "feel" smoother. Reciprocating internal combustion engines and especially in-line four cylinder versions, all produce shock pulses, which are very apparent to the occupants of the car. Every engine produces a shock pulse each time an individual cylinder fires. So, in the case of the four cylinder variety, there are four large individual pulses for each 720 degrees of crank rotation. Each time there's a pulse, it causes the internal components to do a rapid acceleration-deceleration event. When you consider the mass of all the internal components and visualize all these parts stopping and starting during their reciprocating and rotating motions, the additional stress "spikes" tend to make it all the more reason for one to wonder how any of it can work for any length of time. The harmonic balancer is made with the rubber coupling so that, when the individual "spikes" occur, the inner portion may move with the crank, but the rubber connected outer ring's mass helps prevent the hub and crank from going as far or as fast during the spikes or pulses. Remember that the outer part had considerable mass, so it tends to want to stay in motion at the speed that it's traveling and that's why it can prevent excessive harsh motion by the crank and other internal parts. To put it simply, the harmonic balancer is a shock absorber for the engine and thus prevents the individual pulses from destroying everything in the engine. A quick bit of history; Back in the late '70's, all the Pro Stock engines had been reduced in displacement to allow the cars to weigh less. At that time the vehicle weight was based on engine "type" and total displacement. Typically, the engines were in the 330 cubic inch range and running 10,000 to 11,000 rpm was normal, especially in high gear at the traps. There began to be a lot of engines that were "exploding" their harmonic balancers on the big end. Aside from cutting the steering in half and blowing the front tires, large hunks were also finding their way into the grandstands and there were numerous injuries, many of which ended in death. NHRA immediately mandated that solid "balancers" were to be used from that point on. Keep in mind that a balancer can't be solid and function properly, but the rules were the rules. Moroso and a couple other companies who were tight with NHRA began making aluminum billet "balancers" immediately and everyone bought them so they'd be legal to race. All of a sudden, racers were getting only 10 passes from their crankshafts, which had previously lasted an entire season. Initially, most people thought the cranks were "bad", but after destroying engine after engine, a few knowledgeable engine people figured out where the problem actually was coming from and several companies that were capable of making functioning harmonic balancers sprang up over night. They are all still in the business to this day and their units are actually much better than the factory units of years before, as they are made from premium materials and optimized for high rpm applications. With this short bit of history finished, I'll begin to wind it up by stating what we do with the Honda engines. If the balancer has more belt grooves than the application needs, i.e. the power steering pulley, we machine it off. When it comes to the the pulleys that are actually a part of the outer portion of the balancer, we leave them intact. This procedure will not lighten the unbalanced hub substantialy, but the outer balancer ring will keep all its mass and function correctly. I also need to say that a large driven mass such as a blower or alternator, can have a slight dampening effect, but to actually work properly, the belt connecting the components to the crank would need to be 4" to 5" wide and the belt tension would be so great that it would wear out the number 1 main bearing as well as the bearings of the the driven parts in short order. It's especially important to keep the balancer "as is", if you're running an aluminum flywheel. The reduction in flywheel mass can also increase the pulsation shock strength and a higher level of vibration will immediately be observable. So if you lighten the flywheel,it's absolutely more necessary than ever to maintain the mass or the harmonic balancer. I realize that there's a lot of hype out there where manufacturers are promising this and that. The oversize crank pulleys can drive other geared or belted components faster due to the diameter ratio increase, but if you're deleting the balancer in the process, the short and long term side effects are going to hinge on your decisions. Larger diameter pulleys for the alternator, power steering and any other belt driven accessory are good ways to slow the speeds and drag of the those components, but when doing a large diameter crank pulley, the larger pulleys should actually be designed to fit "over" the stock balancer. Perhaps, someone will begin to make some good quality "functional" balancers some day, but until they do, you need to proceed carefully, as some good looks and minimal power gains can be off set by a ruined engine. I'm sure that there will be some fall out regarding what I'm saying here and to that effect I need to remind everyone that we do not manufacture hubs, big pulleys, or harmonic balancers for Hondas and none of what I've said is the least bit politically motivated.

That was posted several years ago. Since that time, endyne has contacted fluidampr and had them create a better dampening device. http://www.theoldone.com/components/fluidampr/

I think it's interesting that companies building big hp competition engines are trying to increase the dampening on their engines, whereas we are trying to get rid of them

v4lu3s

I trust anything from Endyn as much as a I trust George W. Bush.

Just because people have called a crank pulley a harmonic balancer doesnt mean that is the correct term for it.

I dont understand why people always want to compare inline 4 cylinder engines to v engines.
When a V engine and an inline engine have similar physics of vibration and harmonics then those comparisons are worth paying attention to.

As far as a rubber ring goes, it has to be thick enough to flex and deform to properly absorb vibrational harmonics. The rubber ring on a honda pulley that hasa it does not have enough rubber to do that.

Lastly....a d15 with a solid pulley can easily last hundreds of thousands of miles.