aasaa666

I have a H22a1 in my Accord. Prior to buying the 70mm throttle body the only concern I had was the external map sensor just dangling, and the price of a throttle body $/mm. When it finally came in, I kind of had some last minute concerns which I should have researched about it earlier. now Im trying to do some. this throttle body has the hole to mount the MAP sensor but doesnt have the idle screw (so no means of adjusting base idle, other than depending on the PCM to mess with the idle through the IACV). I already thought of a solution to the, no idle screw, problem so I wont stress over that. my main concern is the MAP sensor reading. the 70mm throttle body is larger than stock so the map readings may be off. did anyone ever had problems after installing a new larger throttle body? poor gas mileage maybe? how off do you think the map sensor reading will be? any solutions?

mattsnooz

The regular P13/P14 ecu's would normally compensate after being resetted should they not?

Manifold absolute pressure sensor just reads pressure. As long as you don't go into boost (which apparently you can get pretty close with a stock intake ???!) shouldn't your map sensor work as normal?

Eitherway through tuning (which you should probably be doing with a larger intake wouldn't you?) your map sensor would just send pressure transferred to mili amp signals to your ecu and your ecu processor (maps) send outputs to your injectors (super simplification from my limited understanding so correct me when I'm wrong).

vlang29

a map sensor reads air pressure, not the amount of air. a throttle body will not change the manifold pressure, just volume and velocity

vlang29

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mattsnooz &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> As long as you don't go into boost (which apparently you can get pretty close with a stock intake ???!)</TD></TR></TABLE>

not really... my map reads -28mmHg at the highest under WOT

Acidcrakker

I believe that a 70mm TB on an untuned h22a is not going to work out very well

A Blue Lude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I believe that a 70mm TB on an untuned h22a is not going to work out very well</TD></TR></TABLE>

Why?

Acidcrakker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by A Blue Lude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Why?</TD></TR></TABLE>

What do you mean why???? Its an over sized TB that is going to dump more air into the combustion chamber. The injectors can only compensate so much before it starts running lean.

A Blue Lude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What do you mean why???? Its an over sized TB that is going to dump more air into the combustion chamber. The injectors can only compensate so much before it starts running lean.</TD></TR></TABLE>

All it's going to do is give you a higher manifold pressure at a given throttle angle and engine speed up to, of course, atmospheric.

Which is really the only problem with making the throttle body arbitrarily large - you lose resolution especially at low engine speeds.

Acidcrakker

Which is the same thing I pretty much said, except I put it in retard terms.

Higher manifold pressure is the same thing as denser air, or more air.

And the fuel injectors can only compensate so much.

A smaller TB might have been a wiser choice for an untuned motor.

A Blue Lude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Which is the same thing I pretty much said, except I put it in retard terms. </TD></TR></TABLE>

No, it's not.

Acidcrakker

Yes it is

So you mean to tell me that more air will not go into the IM with a bigger TB?

You can call it what ever you want, mass, volumn, or pressure. A bigger TB will let more Space into the IM. Which is fine if its tuned, but if its not there will be an A/F that is not close to whatever the A/F ratio is set on a stock car.

The H22 ECM is designed to run a 62mm tb, not a 70mm. You can get away with simpleton bolts on with out a tune, like I/H/E. But once you start pickin at the A/F ratio that takes place inside a motor, you need to have it tuned in some way. Other wise you risk running lean or rich. Either way is bad in the long run not immediatly.

But do whatever you want IDC.


Modified by Acidcrakker at 2:20 PM 6/29/2008

A Blue Lude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So you mean to tell me that more air will not go into the IM with a bigger TB?

Modified by Acidcrakker at 2:20 PM 6/29/2008</TD></TR></TABLE>

No, I don't mean to tell you that.

Throttle bodies definitely fall under the "simpleton bolt-on" category.

More manifold pressure = more fuel.

People harp on tuning way too much.

aasaa666

So is it certain to say that with the throttle body installed.

for MAP: more air = less VAC Pressure = More Fuel injected (wasting gas?)

I can most likely diregard IAT and BARO because their values have nothing to do with the throttle body.

so does anyone here think that the throttle body will cause a significant change?

if I do want to cheat the MAP sensor how? and what are the consequenses that comes with each procedure?

Acidcrakker

I think you have taken it to a matter of opinion here.

Im not harping either. Im just saying if you change the A/F ratio around you are going to need some sort of tuning in order to function properly.

And your being argumenative for some unknown reason.

Acidcrakker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aasaa666 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So is it certain to say that with the throttle body installed.

for MAP: more air = less VAC Pressure = More Fuel injected (wasting gas?)

I can most likely diregard IAT and BARO because their values have nothing to do with the throttle body.

so does anyone here think that the throttle body will cause a significant change?

if I do want to cheat the MAP sensor how? and what are the consequenses that comes with each procedure?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can use an adjustable FPR on your TB like I do and it will make everything work better with out a tuning system. Although Im running slighty larger injectors on my set up. It should still help you.

If you need a hand on how to tune using an AFPR send me a PM and Ill help you.

A Blue Lude

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by aasaa666 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So is it certain to say that with the throttle body installed.

for MAP: more air = less VAC Pressure = More Fuel injected (wasting gas?)

I can most likely diregard IAT and BARO because their values have nothing to do with the throttle body.

so does anyone here think that the throttle body will cause a significant change?

if I do want to cheat the MAP sensor how? and what are the consequenses that comes with each procedure?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

?

Just plug the MAP sensor up. If you cannot do that on the new TB give it manifold vacuum however possible. Ideally you'd get a 5g style MAP sensor that will go on the throttle body.

I'd also advise you to disregard people who suggest you get a AFPR and then tune it blind.

Hawkze_2.3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

What do you mean why???? Its an over sized TB that is going to dump more air into the combustion chamber. The injectors can only compensate so much before it starts running lean.</TD></TR></TABLE>



You keep posting silly stuff like this.....almost all of your comments in this thread are incorrect and I hope nobody reads them and thinks they are factual.

A larger throttle body will not come anywhere close to 'dumping' more air into an engine. Learn how an internal combustion engine works and you will understand that each cylinder creates its own vacuum that sucks air in. It only sucks in what it needs and a larger throttle body is not going to push any more or less air into the cylinders.

It will increase throttle response and LET more air in for the same amount of gas pedal travel making it seem like it adds power, but it does not put more air into the cylinders.

Acidcrakker

Whats incorrect. I tuned mine according to the color of the plugs. If they were to dark than Id lower the FPR and if they were too white Id raise the pressure. Untilthe the final product was dark brownish. Cleaning them between each adjustment.

Where is something wrong in that.

And you can kiss my *** in mean time

Hawkze_2.3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And you can kiss my *** in mean time</TD></TR></TABLE>

Will do, thanks.

I already said what was wrong about what you said in the first post.

Acidcrakker

The vaccum affect is created and perfected at 62mm not 70mm.

If it only sucks in the ammount it only needs then why bother with enlarging the intake pipe manifold, or a P and P on it at all.

I would so love nothing more than to test this out. I have 2 IMs one is a stock H22 and the other one is a 64mm port matched plennum with that uber gay Plennum expander thing.

All I would need is an A/F system and would document the diffrences in the A/F ratio.

Hawkze_2.3

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Acidcrakker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If it only sucks in the ammount it only needs then why bother with enlarging the intake pipe manifold, or a P and P on it at all. </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you have modified the engine to flow more air to the point that the TB is a RESTRICTION, then enlarging the airflow paths will remove the restriction and let the engine have what it needs. Things like cams that have higher lift and longer duration allow the engine to pull in more air, or a forced induction setup will benefit from a larger TB, but a stock engine is about the same with a 62mm or 72mm opening (besides response and maybe a small bit at the top of the rpm range). Though every engine is of course different, it's generally true.

There are ways of tuning the intake manifold and runners that create harmonics and waves that can bounce air back into the cylinders and cram more air in, but that's far out there compared to what we're talking about.

Just imagine that you have a engine that wants to suck in x amount of air. You then give it a 60mm hole to suck it through, and then a 70mm hole to suck it through. The velocity will be higher going through the smaller hole because that's what has to happen to get that certain amount of air in, and it will go a bit slower through the 70mm hole because it has more volume and it doesn't need as much velocity to satisfy the engine's need. In the end the amount of air is the same.

Acidcrakker

Yes that is spectacular.

Now say I wanted to make one of these IM with ported runners from home(which I do) what tools are needed.

Hawkze_2.3

Is that a question?

Acidcrakker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Just imagine that you have a engine that wants to suck in x amount of air. You then give it a 60mm hole to suck it through, and then a 70mm hole to suck it through. The velocity will be higher going through the smaller hole because that's what has to happen to get that certain amount of air in, and it will go a bit slower through the 70mm hole because it has more volume and it doesn't need as much velocity to satisfy the engine's need. In the end the amount of air is the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So then By lowering the velocity of The air, this creates more power???

If it still sucks the same ammount of air in, then where does the extra power come from the bolt on.(Thanks to this explaination I now see my faults, sorta)

But now my curiosity is getting the best of me.

So packing more mass into the combustion chamber would be along the lines of a Turbo. Correct?

But I still think that the A/F ratio would vary on the two IMs I have

Acidcrakker

Yes it is<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hawkze_2.3 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is that a question?</TD></TR></TABLE>