I cannot figure out why my h22 wont fire up. Currently, it will crank all day long, but wont ever fire over. This suggests the only possible starting issues of spark and fuel. Ive tested everything I can think of and still the car wont crank up. I tested all the spark plugs for spark at once. Essentially I grounded them out by sitting them on the valve cover. Every last plug sparked and in the correct order. This seems to suggest spark is fine and cannot be an issue. Ive done 3 or 4 various other spark tests with the same results. Plug wires were tested for resistance and even replace with another set from my other h22. No difference. New spark plugs, no difference. Today, I went as far as replacing the ignitor. Cap and rotor visually appear fine and have even been changed out for known good parts. Theres nothing left to suggest spark. Thus, it has to be a fuel issue. Fuel is a much more difficult thing to assess. When the car cranks over fuel can be smelled out the exhuast. FPR reads close to 50 psi all day long. Ive swapped out injectors and went back to stock even. Nothing has seemed to help. This leaves me wondering if it could possibly be gas. At this time, it is a very real possiblilty as the car hasnt run since September. So, i pulled the injectors and rail today. Then applied flame and cranked the engine over so the injectors would spray fuel into the air. Well, it definently ignited and I ended up wasting an entire fire extinguisher on the engine. Not one of my brightest moments. I do still have my eyebrows. The gas smells old. Its the only thing I have left to try as I can figure. To say what old gas smells like you need to leave gas in a container for about 3 years and use it in your lawn mower... Thas abuot the only wasy to explain the common smell of it. So, if a flame will ignite gas, does that mean spark plugs will ignite the gas? Obviously not as it wont fire over or is the spark poor? Anyone have any suggestions or clues as to something it could be?


Initilly, the car ran fine and had occasional starting issues where it would take a while to fire over. Then, in september the head experienced some lifting from boost. Some coolant got in the cylinders and I pulled the head and replaced the head gasket. The car has not cranked since then. Ive taken compression tests getting perfect results, ive replaced and went back to stock on everything i could think of. Ive checked timing over and over again using a wooden dowel to mark TDC on cylinder 1, using the flywheel markings, and even the cranks keyway markingjust to verify nothing was off. Thus, with all that said I cannot see how timing could be off. Its possible it could be a tooth off on both of the cams, but even then it would still fire over being 1 tooth advanced. Having said that, Im pretty sure its right on. It cant be 180 degrees out because I had to pull the cams off to replace the head gasket. The cams were set on after the crank was aligned, so its right there. Ive even thought about that and rotated the engine over to test it, but reasoning through it suggests impossible. Ive replaced the spark plugs with two different sets. Ive checked all the wiring connections making sure there wasnt anything missing. Checked the main grounds on the thermostat housing and they are both intact.

Although its not terribly important, yes this h22 is boosted as said before. When I pulled the head I inspected everything for damage. Its completely built. Sleeved, forged pistons, billet rods, oversized valves, etc. Initially it had 1000cc injectors and an AEM standalone. Those items were replaced with stock parts after much testing to simplify starting issues and to rule out either one of those factors as being the specific issue. The only thing that has stayed in it and has been an issue in the past is the GM 3 bar map sensor. Currently its reading correctly and hopefully is fairly compatible with the stock ECU. A CEL is on. It throws code 20. This code is ELD(electronic load detection) and the car has always thrown this code. Its a 3rd gen prelude and the OBD0 original connector, wiring, and sensors did not have the capability to read ELD. Yes, the car has been converted to OBD1. Every other 3rd gen h22 out throws the same code. It is the only code present. The fuel tank was drained in August and only had half a tank ran through it after the tank was drained. The gas was put in it approx. september 10th.

As this is being posted, the gas is draining out of the tank and onto the ground. Hopefully I covered most of the things I have tested and tried. Compression is around 9.5:1......

 

anyone? bump for a guys who's next to out of ideas...

 

your timing belt broken?

 

i had this problem when i did my timing belt change. turns out my crank was 1 rotation off. i pulled the belt off again, turned the crank 360 degrees (without rotating the cams), and put everything back together. car started up fine immediately. just cause your TDC sensor, and all gears are akligned, doesn't mean that your feul/ignition is going at tyhe right time. try this out and see if it works.

 

if you roatated the crank 360 degrees it would be right back where you started.

check the timing with a light to verify, you could be off a tooth on the cam causing the timing to be so retarded that it wont fire.

the three bar map sensor also bugs me but i cant say i know much about their compatability, but they do affect the timing.

 

Thanks for the replies guys... Its miserable and raining here today, but as soon as I get everything back together I guess Ill rip it out and try again. The problem is the car is OBD1.. All the sensors are located within the distributor.. That would lead me to believe that as someone stated the crank sensor being off causing the injectors to pulse at different times than the ignition system might be slightly strange. But, since I am literally at a breaking point, the very next thing I will do is reset the timing belt.

I guess I should say, if I didnt mention it was stock, then assume its aftermarket. Theres so much on this car its hard to find the stock parts.. The cams are stock, cam gears are not.. With that being noted, its a good idea to say the ignition is the MSD digital igntion and coil.

Now, as rosko said.. It would actually being advanced if anything. The motor sits straight up in this car instead of slightly leaning back and setting the cams gears to TDC was a bit tricky seeing as they usually lean a little back, but I set them the same was I always do by aligning the cam gears between the cam cover plate's two round bars that stick up on it. (forget its technical name at the moment)

But, if I were to reset the timing I would be doing as Rosko suggested in some form or another anyway.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by BB6racer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i had this problem when i did my timing belt change. turns out my crank was 1 rotation off. i pulled the belt off again, turned the crank 360 degrees (without rotating the cams), and put everything back together. car started up fine immediately. just cause your TDC sensor, and all gears are akligned, doesn't mean that your feul/ignition is going at tyhe right time. try this out and see if it works.</TD></TR></TABLE>

It doesn't quite work this way. If you rotated 360, it would be back at the same point. You probably were off just a tooth and didn't realize it, and set it correctly the second time.

Tommy, your phone sucks! Did you screw w/ the cam gear settings when doing the timing belt last time? I know it should crank since it ran before, just not the greatest.

I doubt it's the gas, I mean it hasn't been down THAT long. I mean, you remember my first time snapping a rod? My car sat for a little over a year and it cranked fine once I got the little things worked out. That, and you're compression is in the 9's, right? So it's not like the degrading octane should be the cause of not firing.....

Done a compression test? It's got spark, it's got fuel, IMO it has to be shot compression (i kinda doubt), bad timing on the belt, or an F'd up sensor somewhere that's giving us trouble.

Next time you look at your car, make sure you have a fire extinguisher in hand....you know, just in case

 

Chase, thanks for the input...

Ive yet to do anything with the gas and it will Thursday before I have a chance as weather and work permitted nothing further this weekend. Yes, I have done a compression test 4 times since the motor last fired over... Results are identical.... 190 across the board...Not even 1 psi variation as long as battery had power...Total Seal gapless piston rings seem to love me...

The gas may actually be a better possibility than I first thought. My recolection says I bought gas about 6 miles before it last fired over.. And I experienced sputtering just before it last cranked... This I originally attributed to coolant in the cylinder... Yes, cylinder 1 had some in it, but I am now unsure thats the only reason it wouldnt run...BTW, if it is gas.... I may have to give the car away after I shoot the clerk who sold it to me...

 

are the 2 sets injectors the same (p&h or saturated )?is your ecu set up for them?

 

Yes, both sets of injectors are Peak and Hold style injectors common to the OBD1 prelude motor. Yes, the stock ECU is set up for stock injectors... The aem standalone is set to use the 1000cc injectors as it was tuned for them and has ran fine in the past.

 

when you crank it over does it sputter or backfire or make any sounds at all like combustion is taking place? make sure the cam gear is aligned with the camshaft also.

 

Obviously something common to both ecus. Check your grounds.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Quade &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Obviously something common to both ecus. Check your grounds.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Or not related to the ECU's...i.e. - mechanical

 

Ive checked all the grounds. Main grounding places Ive checked include tranny ground, thermostat main grounds, 3 grounding straps on the valve cover and intake manifold.


As far as cranking over, its actually attempted to sputter over 2x under long periods of cranking. But, it has yet to really fire up. That as well suggests fuel.


As far as something mechanically wrong, I dont see what it could be. Turbo spins freely. Crankshaft rotates fine, pistons rotate freely. No damage to cylinder walls(sleeves) when taken apart, All valves appeared great. Cam gears and camshafts never modified when taken apart and in same condition. The only major difference from running to not running is a manual tensioner that was added on with a new headgasket.

 

this isnt a common problem at all i've only seen it once, but it happened right after the guy replaced the head gasket like you did. i dont think it has anything to do with replacing the head gasket iether. because you dont need to pull the cam gear in most cases. but what happened was the cam gear rotated slightly on the camshaft changing the timing so that it would have spark, injector pulse width, and the timing marks all line up perfectly. the easiest way to make sure the cam gear is lined up with the camshaft is to take the valve cover off and when cylinder number one is at tdc on the exhaust stroke/beginning the intake stroke the valves should overlap. if they dont overlap then iether your timing off. which could be caused by not setting it corectly or the cam gear not lined up with the cam. you did check for injector pulse width right. yea but to me it sounds like its a problem with timing. iether mechanical timing or ignition timing.

 

Ok.... I posted the images for 2 reasons. 1) I hope to spark some interest and desire to help troubleshoot.... 2) To show you the valve cover leaves the cam gears exposed. I dont have to take off the cam gears to line them up by any means. The only reason I even have taken the valve cover back off is to make sure the camshafts sat as they should. I compared them to my 4th gen at TDC just to make sure I wasn't crazy and/or the cam gears slipped....


Im hoping its possibly gas, but it very well could be timing as everyone seems to think its that (including myself for at least 3 months... but, after checking 10x Im not on that boat anymore...)

I might have an hour or two this weekend to look at it, unless I decide to pull a after dark and work thing. Doubt I will... So, I suspect it will be March 4 before I get back to it... Which I have an entire week off...

Speaking of that entire week off, I am going to spend 90% working on preludes.. In process of one build, and trying to fix 3 others... So, 4 different preludes need some loving... One has a busted steering issue, one wont crank(this one), one has a blown front main seal, and one needs to pull the current motor so the new one can get built...

 

Timing has to be off or you got the plug wires on wrong.

Put it at TDC and check it another 5 times. Make sure the flywheel is dead on, and the cams are dead on. They like to rotate themselfs . Try locking the cams in place by using a small allen key in the top of the cam plates. ( should be 2 small holes on the exhuast and intake cam. only 1 hole on each side will allow the allen key to slide through ) If you use the right size key it should fit perfect.

 

i read thru the whole thing....and im sorry if i missed it....but did you check the distributor? do you have spark at the coil? have you tried to pull any codes from the ecu?

check the ignitor, coil and then the dizzy for the CKP.

 

Im sure its above, but yes... Ive checked the distributor. I have replaced the ignitor, the cap, and the rotor. I have also completely swapped a known good distributor onto it from my 4th gen. I have spark at the coil.. Very strong spark(it shocks).. I also have spark coming through each wire and onto the plugs in the correct order and seemingly correct timing.

I tried to pull codes at the ECU when the stock ECU was in. As listed above, it threw code 20.. ELD.. Thats it. Yes, its always thrown it.. Read above for explanation...

So, to answer all your questions.. I have already checked all of that sadly...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JTCdudeman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

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Can anyone find the thing out of place in this picture? Something is obviously different and wrong. by the arm... What is it though?

 

Just to be sure, leakdown test?

 

Well, I get right on that one as soon as time appears.. I just figured a compression test being perfect was enough info for me..

 

so what is your timing set at then? assuming your marks are set correctly how many degrees advanced is it when you check it with a light?

 

Today I have already verified the timing and its 100% dead on. Not even possible to be 1 tooth off on cams... Timing light reads right around 0-1 degree advanced... I have new gas in the car currently and am about to put the ECU and injectors back in correctly....

Btw, did a leakdown test at 20psi as I couldnt do more... Nada... Thats right around what i would hope to see at a low pressure rate and everything sealed properly...

Gas notes: old gas smells very sweet... and hard to light on fire in a bucket... Still ignites eventually though...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JTCdudeman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Timing light reads right around 0-1 degree advanced... </TD></TR></TABLE>

well thats what i figured all along... i believe the timing should be about 15 or so at idle.

you got spark and you got fuel but the spark is just coming too late to fully ignite the mixture so you are smelling all that unburnt fuel in the exhaust.

it has been my expierience that an engine will not keep itself running with timing that low.

i dont remember if you said you got an aftermarket ecu or not, but in my AEM ems there is an offset that controls the difference between what the computer is outputting for timing and what it actually is at the engine. this offset needed to be reset anytime the distributor or cams or anything like that were removed.