alterdcreations

be carefull reving this engine if its a daily driver and intended to last....
I have seen them rev to 8500 + on drag only apps.... but on daily is asking for a rod thru the side. i have seen a f23 use custom f23 lightweight rods.......look in the a/m section for the build
look like a potent build. good luck

NirVTEC

I don't have anything against their rods(actually used them in my Turbo motor) I just have something against the Cams and Company!
Thanks for thinking of me! I'm always on your mind.......and hopefully ANYONE I have "touched" remembers me as well!......I promise they have sold LESS Honda/Prelude cams because of me!......

Again...Sweet build! I am staying tuned on this one!

alterdcreations

https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...highlight=f22a
hear's the link

gstrudler

Yeah, I tried contacting Crower about a couple different things via email and heard squat back. They might make good products, but their customer service sucks so I will likely never bother trying them.

Here's why I can't do Pauter rods:
HON-220-480-1410F Honda H22A/F23 $792

Haha, little spendy for me. I definitely don't plan to rev it to 8.5k very often, but I'd like to on occasion if I ever take it to the strip (depending on how soon power drops off). Most days it might only see 7k.

Can't wait to get this thing really going. I keep looking at how much I still have left to get and don't know how I'm going to pay for all of it; one piece at a time I guess. My throwout bearing is making an awful whining/squealing noise, so it's a little extra motivation for me.

gstrudler

8500 is a dream if I get some bigger cams down the road; just want to build it right the first time. Once I get it on the dyno after the build is done I'll see what the curve actually looks like.

Forgot when doing my CR calcs that the SCE gasket is a .043", which will dump my compression by about .5, so I should end up right around 12:1, which should be just about right for a street motor.

Chasing this whole rod bolt thing has been a nightmare. Obviously the a2 and a3 have a different PN, but Honda/Acura doesn't list the bolt sizes at their dealerships (tried calling both). Called ARP and they haven't heard anything about it not working with the a3, which leads me to believe that if people have had problems, they haven't called it in. I decided I will finally stop internet surfing, spend the $3 and order an a2 rod bolt from a dealer and see side by side how they match up with the f23/k20a3 rod bolt. Assuming it's larger (which I have a hunch it is by everything I've been reading), I guess a hone is in order? These stupid rods are causing so many problems

alterdcreations

send it to ARP, I am sure they can match it up but i could be mistaken

alterdcreations

running the stock rods at 7k won't be a problem....Pirate can prove that
maybe a complete set would be a good piece of mind

DaInFaMMuS1

What do you mean a hone on the LE of the rod? what would happen if u didn't hone it? I'm curious of the process to put type-s pistons in an H23aVtec

gstrudler

I'm gonna assume he meant hone the pe (small end) of the rod, since (also assuming) the h23 uses a pressed fit pin and the type-s pistons use a floating pin.

DaInFaMMuS1

so you'd have to open up the small end the h23's rod to turn it to a floating wristpin setup to accommodate the h22 type s piston?

gstrudler

Finally settled it for myself...




k20a2 left, k20a3 (f23) right.

k20a3 is 7.80mm wide at the threads & 51.61mm long from end to end; k20a2 is 8.81mm wide & 62.38mm long.

Looks like I'm going to be chatting with ARP again since they are under the impression that their 208-6003 bolts are compatible across the entire k20 family. I'm still quite surprised that this has never come up in as many years as the k20a3 has been around. As suggested, I will see if I can send in an f23 bolt and have them match it up.

Checked into aftermarket wrist pins. Everything I found specs on was right in the same range as the stock f20c pins (~110-115g), so looks like I'll just keep those. I guess Honda did it right from the factory

Was familiarizing myself with the eManage Ultimate manual and discovered you can connect their legacy "Warning Meters" (of which I just aquired the a/f gauge before I knew) through the serial port and datalog directly; happy accident

gstrudler

Weird; in their "accessories" catalog they have one 22mm pin that is 89g and another that is 132g. They don't even have a 23mm listed there. In the "sport compact" catalog, their 22mm pin is 115g and they have 23mm pins listed, but you can't see the weight

jlude90

Any news/updates in the last few months?

gstrudler

Not much unfortunately. The other two rods are in the mail currently; it will be nice to have those. Once I get them, I'll be able to get the small end re-bushed for the pistons and get all that squared away, as well as matching up clearances so I can order the bearings and get them plasti-gauged and make sure all that is in order.

I'm still in talks with ARP trying to figure out the bolt issue. Their reps on the phone haven't been terribly helpful; they apparently don't have access to the dimensions of the parts, only applications, which I think is pretty lame They gave me a number to call for their custom order line, as apparently they have all the bolt specs. I tried calling a few weeks ago and didn't get a call back, so I dropped it for now. Once I get the rods, I'll probably pick it up again.

As for everything else, still waiting on the block, that's the last big thing to secure. Otherwise I'm collecting odds and ends; I'll be getting a cash infusion in a couple weeks so I can order some more stuff. Going to be running (already have) an oil pressure, wideband afr and egt gauge (all GReddy warning meter series). I plan on using the EGT for individual cylinder trim; I know after tuning it's not going to do me much good, but I figure I might be able to squeeze a few more ponies out that way.

I'm still wondering about running oil squirters. I know I probably should, but it's going to be difficult to source the f23 ones and I don't know how hard it will be to modify the h22 ones to clear the f23 crank. Thoughts?

Thanks for checking in!

jlude90

Well the H23VTEC is hard enough to make the H22 oil squirters work, and with another 2mm of stroke, thats going to be a bitch. I had mine perfect and when they heated up they contracted back a bit and I found 2 tips in my oil pan. Rosko says you can get away without it, but thats on an H23VTEC, I'm not sure about a 97mm crank. But I would guess you could get away without them too. If you decided to go to aftermarket pistons you really wouldn't need them as they dissipate heat better. Do the S2Ks have squirters?

gstrudler

Yeah, they do, despite the forged pistons. I was hoping with the forged pistons I could get away from it, but I'm not sure for a DD or track car.

gstrudler

Got a hold of ARP today. The guy on the phone was great to talk to, but I'm still not sure about their database system. He was at least able to look things up based on dimensions, but I don't think all their stuff is accurate, or I just don't know how to measure or research online. They don't carry anything that's M8 with a 1.25" thread pitch However, I asked about M9 x 1.25 and we got an option that's sort of close, except there's very little thread on it. However, when I asked about the k20 bolt (based on part number), he said it was M9 x 0.75"?? That doesn't make any sense to me since I thought M9 is either 1.25 or 1.5, especially considering the k20 bolt I have is the same thread pitch as my M8 (and M8 is supposed to be either 1.0 or 1.25 as confirmed by my conversation with the ARP tech).

So here's what I'm wondering, how feasible would it be to have a machine shop machine the rods to accept the M9 x 1.25" thread? It seems to me this should work, since the thread pitch is the same, which is the critical part. They should be able to just tap it larger, no? If so, I should be able to get a set of the k20 rod bolts and have them machined down since they're too long. Thoughts?

gstrudler

I sent my idea to ARP to see what they thought. Here's what I got back:

"You would need to drill the existing threads out first and the tapping drill size for the M9X1.25 is close to the major diameter of the existing M8X1.25 threads but it might not quite clean up. The bigger issue is that you are making the hole in the rod bigger and potentially weakening the rod in the process. I would not recommend what you are proposing."

Boo.

pentaq

Really is. I was hoping for a solution.

PirateMcFred

The solution is light weight pistons.

This is a comparison between the F23 rod/stroke geometry and the force that the total weight of the piston exerts on the rod at TDC:

7000 rpm * 500g piston = 1787kg force at TDC
7700 rpm * 412g piston = 1782kg force at TDC

I got 700 rpm extra without loading the rods any worse than I have for the last 55,000 miles on my current build. I don't actually know how heavy the H22 pistons are but they have to be more than F20C pistons (485g). If they are heavier than 500g then I can rev even higher on my forged pistons wihtout any concern. In the All Motor forum there's a thread in the FAQ where they took the stock F23 rods and modified H22 pistons to nearly 9000 rpm (39% more Gs than 7000 rpm). I wouldn't worry about the stock rod bolts if you can get the pistons lighter.

-P

gstrudler

The problem is I'm still in an h block. At that point I'd have to sleeve to run aftermarket forged pistons and that would double the cost of the build between the two. Crower makes an f23 rod, but it's ~$900 for a set. I'll have to check that thread in the n/a section; maybe I'm getting myself worked up about nothing and the rods will be fine.

Anybody ever bought anything from "f22parts.com"? They sell a set of "high strength" f23 rod bolts on eBay, but I suspect it might be a sham. I'll check out the Accord forum too and see if there's anything over there.

PirateMcFred

Call around to various piston manufacturers and ask them if they can lighten OE Honda pistons through milling. Call them and ask how light they can make their pins. 115g is way too much IMHO. If you were willing to spend the money for custom rods which are only $700, then you can still afford to mill out some of the heavy *** crown.

f22parts.com is effectively an Ebay store. I wouldn't trust them.

NABeastRR

nice build,
i would look into finding a cheap f23 block maybe "for iron sleevs" & run some wiseco pistons. pending on c/r your looking at around 330 grams vs where pirate said his were 400 & went to 7700 at less force then 7k. so i would think in theory your 8500 rev with them would be more relistic & safe with a set of new oem rod bolts.

thats what my plan is im starting to gather parts & had the same problem as you arp couldnt help.

NABeastRR

maybe even shot peen the rods.

gstrudler

Can't go iron block for me; have to keep the SH block to maintain ATTS functionality.

I'll have to look into piston/pin lightening as pirate suggested, however, I might also pursue something with ARP still, based on these numbers that I just took:

f23a piston w/ pin: 431g
f20c piston w/ pin: 482g



f22c piston: 363g
f20c piston: 371g
f20c pin: 110g

That's a 23mm pin too, so I don't know what all I'll be able to find that's significantly lighter. Even if I was able to drop the 50g, that only gets me to the same force, not less.

I will probably shot peen to help get rid of the casting marks, and I might cryo-treat as well. I'm a little concerned about the head of the rod since I'll be pulling material out for the larger wrist pin.


NABeast, would you be interested in ARP bolts if they were available? I'm going to try and get a quote on what it would take to get them made, being that there are at least several of us interested.