JG Luder

OK, I realize that I am a self proclaimed N/A God. Maybe that isn't fully true, but I try.

Every so often I get asked about what kind of setup someone should choose, or what would go good with what, and I really like to sit down and think about it to try and help them out. Hopefully this thread will help explain some things...

When going N/A (allmotor) it's important to realize that you're choosing the hard way. There are no two ways about it, N/A is one of the most difficult routes to get extreme power out of a car, and respect for it by other importers. This is part of the draw to it. Everyone expects a turbo car to be fast, everyone expects that if you are on the bottle that you should turn good times, but when you bust out a mid 13 second run on full interior, or lay down a low 12 on a stripped out car, there's something about being able to say "hell yeah, that's pure motor baby... pure motor."

Where to start? Well, first things first, do the bolt ons. Cold air intakes generally give you an extra HP or two over a "hot air" or "filter on a stick" intake. The air on the outside of the car is cooler than under the hood because of the heat that the motor produces. A good header is always a difficult decision. How much do you spend? DC Sports is an often made choice. In fact, everyone seems to have one. This may not be the best brand however. I'm running one, and haven't had a moments complaint about it, however, MANY people I know swear against the headers now. A classic choice would be the Mugen header. You loose a touch of the bottom end power, but you gain it aaaall back and much more up top. The problem with the Mugen is that it's on the top end of headers, reaching close to a grand. SMSP now makes a header that people are starting to rave over, and another choice if you feel like going with a brand name, is GReddy. The main part about a header is that is needs to flow better than stock.

EXHAUST: This is an often made mistake. People want a car that has a 3" exhaust and a 20" muffler. This is completely unecessary unless you DO have a turbo under your hood. Your exhaust gasses work much like a ciphon. Once it gets flowing it helps pull the other gasses along. Like trying to take gasoline out of a tank and putting it into a container. If you use a hose, once you get it going, the gas pulls itself along... if you try to use 4" PVC pipe, you'll never create enough suction to get the gas moving fast enough, and you're stuck. The same goes for exhaust, if you have TOO large an exhaust, you won't have enough backpressure to help pull the other gasses out of the combustion chamber, and you'll actually lose power. (keep this in your mind, cause we're coming back to it later.) I've found that with a stock motor with a decent amount of boltons 2.25 is good, anything more and you'll probably want a 2.5" exhaust.

Fuel:
Fuel is always important. What ultimately makes power is an explosion. There are three key elements to an explosion: air, fuel, and pressure. We've already touched on getting more air with the intake, and we'll go into it in more detail below, and I'll get to compression in a second. So you have more air now, to keep up with the air, you want more fuel. Two things that help:
#1. fuel pressure regulator. It's a vital tuning tool. It allows you to fine tune the fuel pressure and help get the right amounts that create the perfect air/fuel ratio in the motor.
#2. fuel pump. Pressure is nothing without volume. With minor boltons you can leave the fuel pump out of the equation, if you want to make POWER, then you'll have to go further than basic boltons, and you'll need more volume.

Some people will say "man, I'm runnin'g 60 psi on my fuel pressure, that's hella high y0!" But his car may be starving for gas up at the top end.

For example, you can take a bicycle tire and pump 60psi into, and then take a truck tire and pump 40 psi into it. The bicycle has more pressue, but which one has more VOLUME? Right, the truck tire. (The same holds true for turbos, just cause someone is running 20 psi on a small turbo doesn't mean they won't get eaten alive by a guy with a much larger turbo running 15 psi. Volume counts!)

Compression.... mmm... my favorite subject.
I went a tad... oh, I dunno, extreme maybe? Unwise choice for the street, bitchin' choice for the track. Look at it this way, each compression point raised on our motors is roughly 10-12 hp. Go from 10:1 to 12:1 and that's an easy 20hp. You pay the price though. Pump gas becomes less of an option. 11.5:1 is a good powerful street combo. 12:1 and you need to tune it well to be able to run 93 octane, and I have heard tale of a few guys with Type R's running 12.5:1 (and a complete stand alone ECU, fully tuned) and able to use pump gas.

Because of the lining on the H22A's, you can't run forged pistons without sleeving the block. This is what is going to cost you some cash. Prepare for it. Forged pistons are the way to go however, they're lighter, and much stronger. Exactly what you need.

Also, the higher compression you run, the better your car will take to mods, like exhaust, ported heads, and high lift cams!

Compression is affected by many things. You can get it by shaving/milling your head, decking your block, or my favorite and the proper way, by higher compression pistons. BE CAREFUL! 11.5:1 CR pistons combined with milled head = higher compression. I did all three of the above, and it really jacks with your timing belt components.

HEAD WORK!!!!!!!!!!
I'll be brief since this could take a really long time. Remember when I was talking about how important smooth steady flow is over pure space? This applies to the head also. Some people will just bore out the head and all the ports as large as they can, and they screw up a perfectly well designed head from the factory. Honda's flow from the factory kicks ***. You're best bet when you have it ported and polished is to send it to a pro. JG, Portflow, etc. They've been playing a long time, and dyno'd what works, and what doesn't. Take too much off of one area, and you ruin the flow pattern, thus losing power. All these guys do is smooth out the flow as best they can, and polish it up so the air won't be as disturbed when through.

Valves in the head. You want stronger valves. Stainless steel is the best bang for the buck. They make titanium I believe, but not many people NEED that kind of material on their valves. I generally recomend a slightly larger valve, a 1/2mm over bore on both intake and exhaust valves, with a swirl polish, and a multiangle valve job to help smooth things out. (The swirl polish on the valves helps the air and fuel mix on the way into the combustion chamber)

Rods y0. Crower or Saenz are the expensive ones, Eagle is cheaper and many people seem to like them. Take your pick, there are others out there.. depends on your budget.

Pistons:
JE or Arias. Wiesco if you want to save some money. I dont do the whole Endyne thing, and you shouldnt' either. Either way, FORGED is the way to go, but like I mentioned above, you have to sleeve it to go forged. If you're not on that kind of budget, Type S pistons are the only alternative.

I have to run now, but I'll try to come back later tonight and add to it.
Also, the views expressed above are mine alone. Others have different ways of looking at things, and those that do are more than welcome to express they're opinions here, whether you agree, or disagree. This should be an open discussion.

Prelude Vtec 23

Good info You must have had alot of time on your hands

typeSwarrior

I've been enlightened on a couple points, thanks JG--I'm a better man now How much do you know about stroking out the H22, what's safe, what's not? Finally an informative thread that most people can use

laughinxxx

FPR is a vital tuning tool? You left out the VAFC. Why?

prospeed

Hey don't forget a good Prospeed reprogrammed ecu to upgrade the fuel and timing including extended rev limit to take advantage of the bigger cams and better flowing head!!!

jarel

thanks jg.....you enlightened me...thanks for your great info...hows your ride coming along?

RAB

Give this man a round of applause, very well done. I especially like youe comments on exhaust I laugh all the time when I see people with coffee cans on the back of ther cars. I just got my Mugen exhaust system and the piping is 2.25" perfect.

976

Do I hear "He's so vain" in the background?...

Your first sentance made me not read the rest...

nfiedler3

great info keep it coming thanks

JG Luder

w00t: It was a joke. Funny like Ha-ha? Don't get your panites in a wad. " "

Prospeed: Yes, the ECU does make a big difference. Not really that much on a stock car as opposed to a modified car however. The ECU from the factory is programmed to accept certain limitations. Like redline, how much fuel it controls etc. When you start getting into the heavy mods, like pistons, cams, and serious headwork, your ECU isn't going to provide the best control over everything, and your rev limiter is going to be way too low. It's time to upgrade. There are two choices:
#1. People like Brian (prospeed) can reprogram your ECU. Give it a better fuel curve, advance the ignition, and raise the rev limiter. They can do anything from a simple replica program like Mugen or Spoon, to a custom setup where they can set the rev limiter where ever they want. This is the cheaper route. MUCH cheaper, but it works. It's easy enough to do, and its something that will allow you to gain a little more power.
#2. The hard/expensive way. STANDALONE ECU!!!!!!!!!
Unless it's a Hondata, it completely replaces your ECU. The Hondata (while slightly cheaper) uses your factory ECU, but it controls it and tells it what to do. A full standalone, (DFI, PMS etc) is a complete replacement and is programmable in almost every aspect. They can give you some basic setups, but the only real way to set one up correctly is on a dyno. The benifits of the standalone: hell, you can control everything. You remember The Fizzast and da Furrries, when he's messing with his laptop? Take away the Hollywood effect of "DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER!" and that's what he was using to control his car's electrical system. This is something that I would recommend only if you REALLY want to sink some cash, as in $1000-$2500, and have the absolute need to control anything and everything. Also, a Dyno in your spare bedroom would help.

Laughin2.y0: APEXi VAFC... I haven't gotten there yet, but now is as good of a time as any. The VAFC is something that will help you out tremendously if used CORRECTLY. It controls many things on the back end of the ECU. It helps monitor vacuum in the manifold, full curves, and VTEC engagment. A few things to note about the VAFC:
It'll help you cure some lean spots or rich spots across the RPM band. The only REAL way to use it is connected to a Dyno. Other than this, you're using the *** dyno and that's a good way to screw something up. Also, VTEC engagement... I'll get to that in the cam section, which is next....

CAMS:
Many people think that you can gain massive amounst of power by making VTEC engage at, oh, 3500rpm. Well, you won't. The way VTEC works is by giving the best of both worlds, higherlift cams for up top, with low lift cams for down low. Honda conbined the two and you have both on ONE camshaft.
HOW VTEC WORKSYou have two smaller lobes that the valves ride on most of the time, called primaries. The VTEC lobe is larger and lifts higher but sits in the middle of these two and has a seperate rocker that isn't connected to anything. When not in VTEC, it just rides by itself. The two primary lifters stay on the valves at all times, BUT when VTEC kicks in pins lock the primary rockers and connect them to the VTEC rocker. Then the VTEC lobe forces the two rockers to lift higher and open the valves more.
Remember when I talked about airflow? How you can't have too much or you disturb the balance of things? The same applies in cams. If you have too much air/fuel moving in at a low RPM, then you aren't gaining anything, you're losing it. So when you make VTEC engage (using a VAFC or standalone) too early, you are trying to outflow the flow. There basically isn't enough air movement to handle what you're trying to do. This is a problem the old V8 guys have to deal with. If you've ever heard a V8 that idled like hell, with a nasty lope to it, that's because he had a higher lift, longer duration cam in there. It was flowing too much for low end and that causes it to idle poorly. But it sounds phat as hell. They have poor low end, but gain much more up top, where they race. Anyway, I digress....

WHY CAMSHAFTS ARE BENIFICIAL: Honda built our motors with three basic things in mind, not one. They wanted power, yes... but they also had to consider gas mileage and longevity. They needed a good balance between the two. (Money is also a factor...) Higher lift cams meant less gas mileage, and more stress on the valve train components. You could change the valvetrain components, but it costs more, and you still have the worse gas mileage. They picked a nice happy medium. When you choose a camshaft, there are many that you don't need to change the springs and retainers for. (they have only a slightly higher lift) On the up side, they do give you more power, if only 5-10 peak hp. On the downside, you just spent $500-$650 and $250+ labor to GET that amount of hp.

QUICK LESSON ON HOW STUFF WORKS: the valves are connected to the top of the retainer at the top of the spring by keepers, the retainer sits on the top of the valve. An exploded view below:
() <<<< ()()()() <<<< -/----O
The valve (right) fits in the spring (center) and the left most part of the valve fits into the retainer (far left) at the hash mark I put on the valve above (the slash.) The lifter rides on the retainer and causes the valve to move up and down (open and close)

Back to cams that will give you more power are the cams that have a higher lift on the lobes. When you have a higher lift the stock springs can't pull the valve back fast enough and you ahve whats called "valve float." This is bad. Things get out of time, air flow gets messed up, and in the worst cases, will allow the valve to hit the piston. To fix this, you replace the springs with stiffer ones. In our case, a dual spring usually. It's two springs (one inside the other) and holds up MUCH better to higher lift, and higher RPMs. When you replace the spring, you want to do the retainers too, stronger retainers need to be there to hold the valve.

Lift is the distance that the cam opens the valve. The farther is opens, the more air can come in. Duration is basically the amount of time (in degrees of rotation) that the valve is allowed to stay open. The longer it stays open, the more air/fuel you allow in. You want more lift, and longer duration.

Once you have the better stuff up top, you need to pick a profile that will work. Crower, JUN etc have some predesigned cams that come in stages. You can pick which one you feel will work best with yout application. You can't have too much, because like I said before, you'll flow too much, and the rest of the motor can't keep up, air gets jumbled, and you lose power. For MUCH higher lift cams, you want higher compression. You can't just toss a full out set of race cams on a stock motor and expect things to work. Doesn't happen. You aren't creating enough explosion to make the air flow needed to scavange everything.

Long cam story made into cliffs... the more you have done, (and higher compression you have) the more your cams will help you. Pick something too much for your current setup and you may not see much gain at all. Same thing for the VAFC making VTEC kick in too soon, if it makes the valves open on the higher lobe too soon, then you're trying to do too much, with not enough flow to help you.

Again, anyone who feels like I've said something incorrect, confusing, or if you just have a different view of it, feel free to share. We're all here to learn... even me. These are just some things that I've run across during my personal experience over the past several years.

JG Luder

To be completely honest with you, I don't get into the stroking theory much. I haven't played with the numbers yet on the "perfect" rod/stroke ratio. I do know that member "2point6" stroked his H22A1 in his Accord and put down 238hp I think to the ground. Very impressive. This was of course with many, many other mods.

There are kits that will allow you to stroke the motor, they include a different crank and rods. It's an expensive way to go, and when I talked to JUN a few years ago, they had a stroker kit, but decided not to sell it because they got more power from other things, and stroking it (and I quote) "didn't give us the results that we wanted." Evidentally they changed their minds after some more r&d.

ELUD THS

man i actually got a chance to learn a few things , thanks jg,. you should write the next helms manuel i think youll do it better

wutangben

I disagree with what you said, or failed to say, or tried to brush on about exhausts. for one, when you mention exhausts or the exhaust system, you need to talk about everything from the header back, not just behind the cat. you say that you need back pressure but that is acutally not true. with an optimal exhaust system on an N/A motor, you want high exhaust gas velocity, with no back pressure. best way to my knowldege, to achieve this is with a stepped exhaust system. start with a long hybrid stepped header (smsp/hytech). i know the smsp headers arent out yet, and i dont even know if hytech makes headers for the h series motros, but basically you want an exhaust that starts out small and gets bigger as you go further back (to maintain velocity). One common misconception is that a louder exhaust is usually more powerful, we all know this isnt true, but it needs to be said. Also it is definately necessary to replace your cat with a racing cat or a test pipe, other wise youre just pinching the system. im not sure if im forgeting anything. we should have one of the smsp guys write a tech article of some sort for the board on exhausts.

peace


[Modified by wutangben, 5:44 AM 5/9/2002]

LudeLC

Velocity

The momentum of the air is what does the 'scavenging' in the system.

momentum=mass*velocity and Newton's law (2nd if memory serves) = object (mass) in motion tends to stay in motion until acted on by an outside force ('sucking' the next cylinder's air out)


SO, more air in the motor by virtue of the mods JG has talked about means a better designed header will be more important to get that hot gas to move at high velocity/momentum. This is where the lengths of the takeoff pipes and length of collector are critical to where in the RPM band the header performs at it's best (longer collector for low RPM is required whereas shorter collector is required for max gains in the high RPMs).


Thanks JG for posts like this . Threads like this are <U> EXACTLY </U> what boards like this are suppose to be for. It would even be a great to post a copy in the Newbie section. It shows just how complicated it can be to go fast the 'right' way. I love FI goodies but making a 12.XX N/A is just bad ***. Yes, you can go buy a Mustang GT and do relatively minor mods and go just as fast. But the fun is in the technology and separate challenges. I myself will probably never have a 12.XX or even a 13.XX N/A Lude... but, I wouldn't trade my Lude for ANYTHING (except maybe...ok...probably a NSX )


Keep up the good work!

aeolus

nice post

2point6

Nice post JG! On my web site, There was a looonnnggg debate about NA being "a euphamism for an excuse to be slow". This turbo guy claimed that ALL I had to do was build a 19/1 compression 4cyl engine NA and it would be the same as his 900bhp Supra.... LOL. Anyway thanks for the info. I have some more stuff about volumetric efficiency that supports the challenges running NA. If you are interested let me know.

aeolus, I like your avitar!


[Modified by 2point6, 5:01 PM 5/9/2002]

DirtyLude

The exhaust pulses do not pull the gas out of the cylinder. This is a common misconception. The exhaust compression pulses are sent out from the head and expansion pulses return from the end of the exhaust back to the head which pull the gas out. This is why the exact length of the entire exhaust system is important as it determines the timing of the returning expansion pulses. Also the expansion chamber (muffler) on the exhaust will determine the duration of the expansion pulse. An open header or exhaust will produce short strong expansion pulses which will make the power peak in one rpm area, a larger cannister muffler will draw out the expansion pulses making them more rpm friendly.

wutangben

http://www.automotivetech.org/showth...&threadid=6283

DirtyLude

He's also under the impression that gasses are pulled out of the head by being pulled by the vacuum from the proceeding compression pulse. The simplist article I have on compression and expansion pulses is this one from the book Desktop Dynos.

I scanned the short chapter in. The files are pretty big because I scanned them in at a high resolution. Sorry.

http://www.higginstribe.com/temp/exhaust/exh1.pdf 100K
http://www.higginstribe.com/temp/exhaust/exh2.pdf 1.4MB
http://www.higginstribe.com/temp/exhaust/exh3.pdf 700K



[Modified by DirtyLude, 7:16 PM 5/11/2002]

Deadly-Lude

good post jg.

How is your car comin along? my project is comin along slowly but surely.

KTeller8

This should be a sticky

bump up the info

JG Luder

it should be, but I can't seem to find an Admin who cares enough about us. Maybe one of you could try?

JG Luder

I liked the post on the exhaust and the waves. However, since the exhaust IS moving/flowing air, wouldn't it still have a siphon effect too on top of this?

Also, I never got a chance to read the entire article, did it mention incoming air too? Wouldn't the same effect take place on the intake or would it not because the valve is open before the combustion takes place? The opening and closing of valves causes pulses... how far reaching?

Now, as for my thoughts today...

Transmissions. Yay.
The H22A has a nicely geared tranny that seems to work well for about all kinds of racing. Road, autox, and drag. I generally stay away from transmission talk, as I really don't like them. But I'd like to open dialog that would maybe bring out some other guys.

OK, what I know. Synchros suck. I know first hand, and if you havent had issues yet, get ready. Synchros are actually very tiny that act like brakes. (Something that my ex mechanic actually taught me that didn't backfire) They slow the shafts down enough to let the gears "mesh." (If you've ever seen the little piece that hold the car IN gear, you'd be even MORE frightened!)

To my knowledge, not many people make parts that help us. One thing I've considered doing to my next tranny before I install it is have all the internals chryogenically treated. I haven't heard any horror stories, but on that same note, I don't know of anyone in person who has physical proof that it's benifited them. I've actually contacted a company down in Florida that does it, they seem to think that even with the composite material that the gears are made of that it would increase life of the internals by as much as 50-100%.

As far as LSD's go... There are a few types. The "real" LSD's like Quaife cost more, but also offer more protection. If you explode a Quiafe diff, it's a closed differential, so the parts shouldn't go scampering through the rest of the tranny eating up everything in sight. Plus it has a lifetime warranty. Never a bad idea.

The one I chose to go with was the Phantom Grip kit. It isnt' a replacement differential like the Kaaz or Quaife, rather it turns your existing diff INTO a limited slip using a clutch system. Yes, it really works. Yes it helps in cornering despite what those who don't own it say. Yes, both of my wheels turn. The PG should be good for up to about 350-400 hp. Over that and you're going to start overpowering the diff and it'll cause slippage.

Axles... I honestly can't point you in a right direction. I've heard horror stories about almost any brand. You're stuck. Maybe some guys here could share some personal experiences...

Ah, clutches. Same thing with clutches. Good luck, I've heard one person have a gripe for every brand. I went with a Clutchmasters stage 3 to begin with, and I even am still using the clutch disk. I know a person that went with the same kit, and yanked it 3,000 miles later cause it was slipping and already going bad. ??? One of us had luck, I had good, or he had bad. I can't say. ACT: I've known people to order stuff and not have it fit, then rerder, and the same part wouldn't fit although it was "PROMISED" to be the right one. I'm using an ACT extreme pressure plate. I honestly don't think there is anything out there that could give my leg a better workout. IT'S STIFF. Good news is I bark fourth at the track. Bad news is if I'm in traffic I'm hating myself.

Disc differences. Different discs are made out of different material. The type of material relates to the gripping power and "Street feel" of the whole clutch system. You may have one soft disc like a stock one, that feels fine, but may not hold the power. Then you can go up to the more heavy ones, like full carbon kevlar etc etc, they engage more harshly, but will hold more power.

Next we have the pucked discs. Totally mad phat y0. A 6 puck, or 4 puck disc generally engages hard. There isn't any "fade in." Your clutch is now an on/off switch. LOL Lighter, holds great, good for racing. You'll kick yourself in the *** if you think it's going to drive normally on the street. IT IS "streetable" however. Not the streetable in the sense of street FRIENDLY so much as many people DRIVE with them everyday.

I hope I haven't been too vague... again, any and all comments are welcome. As you can see, I'm very gracious to opposing thoughts.

-Todd

...me0w

all that i have to say which is not a lot seeing how im new to the motor tuning part of cars and imports i appreciate all of this info that you have shared. there no telling how much you would have to pay a honda tech for that information and i just got it for free and it couldnt have come at a better time. i now have to replace my clutch in my car as it went out this morning backing out of my driveway which has totally bummed be out. a lude in the gargage thats should be a sin. one question though can you replace the clutch without taking the motor out of the car. i already have a vaccum problem and im on the way to fixing it and im very close to it i hope. i would love not to have to take the motor but if i do have to im going to go ahead and build the motor. im caught between all motor b/c it is such a challenge but i really do want to hp numbers to be really high. i understand that a turboed car should be fast and able to get high hp numbers which i want. and that they way that i plan to go, but i really enjoy the challenge of all motor and would love to have an h22a sitting in the garage to build all motor and put in another 4 th gen lude. i dont think that i would have another car at all anything else would be uncivalized and a waste of money in my opinion. on the info it has really been a great help thanks and if you ever come towards cashville tn give me a shout

JG Luder

The tranny just has to be disconnected. Actually, many tranny shops will only charge you a few hundred to change the clutch out. 200-300 depending on who it is and how much they like you.

If you do it yourself, then may God have mercy on your soul.