ATM I'm in the process of planning out a turbo kit for my 5th gen, While I was plotting out a few compressor maps to see which turbo would be the best to suit me this question came in my mind. Normally I wouldn't matter to much but after some guess work on if it did and if it didn't I came to this conclusion. IF it does increase the VE of the H22a then a T3/T4 60 trim would be a better suit for my engine, while if it doesn't then a 57 trim would be a tad better. It's really a small differance as I know both turbo would produce good power but hey if I'm doing this might as well get the most out of it right?

I have a little time to work out the kinks in my planning as I plan to get an EMS or OBD1 swap for hondata s300 before I even buy the parts for the turbo kit, still looking for an equal length tubular manifold as well.

 

You need to know peak VE, which is 102% for the H22. I'm sure that peak number is in vtec.

 

awesome thank you, yeah I plotted them with valves of 90%-110& in 5% increments for my tests.

Wouldn't by chance know the VE of the engine just below 5.5K I was estimating 85-90% before vtec engages

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vinuneuro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You need to know peak VE, which is 102% for the H22. I'm sure that peak number is in vtec.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you guys need to check out the all motor forum and do some reading!! there is no way you are at 100% VE much less 102%, that would be invisa boost. as RPM increases, your VE will most likely be decreasing. the dual runner manifold and VTEC help maintain a good VE throughout the RPM. no naturally aspirated engine will be at 100% VE.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you guys need to check out the all motor forum and do some reading!! there is no way you are at 100% VE much less 102%, that would be invisa boost. as RPM increases, your VE will most likely be decreasing. the dual runner manifold and VTEC help maintain a good VE throughout the RPM. no naturally aspirated engine will be at 100% VE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

no "stock" naturally aspirated engine you mean

VE is simply the engines efficiency at filling the cylinders with air and fuel. With that said, vtec allows for more lift which = more air per intake stroke which would increase VE. If any of that is wrong, someone please correct me.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you guys need to check out the all motor forum and do some reading!! there is no way you are at 100% VE much less 102%, that would be invisa boost. as RPM increases, your VE will most likely be decreasing. the dual runner manifold and VTEC help maintain a good VE throughout the RPM. no naturally aspirated engine will be at 100% VE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You think that's hard to believe...F20C = 112%

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">there is no way you are at 100% VE much less 102%</TD></TR></TABLE>

Maybe you should do some reading. Start here:

Otobe, Y., et al., “Development of the High-
Power, Low-Emission Engine for the “Honda
S2000”, SAE Paper 2000-01-0670, 2000.

 

http://autospeed.drive.com.au/...=1127 H22

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> as RPM increases, your VE will most likely be decreasing..</TD></TR></TABLE>

VE will increase to the point where the power of your motor drops off as it is in direct relation to it. Not uncommon at all for an n/A motor to achieve greater than 100% VE, thats just good engine building.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you guys need to check out the all motor forum and do some reading!! there is no way you are at 100% VE much less 102%, that would be invisa boost. as RPM increases, your VE will most likely be decreasing. the dual runner manifold and VTEC help maintain a good VE throughout the RPM. no naturally aspirated engine will be at 100% VE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

good info

there is no way that VE is 90% around 5k, if you wanted to know you could buy that SAE paper and read up on all of it....

If you are looking into good setups for the h22a in a somewhat "factory" trim, look into john d's red 5g prelude, his setup produces amazing power at low boost

 

copied from the site linked above

Intriguingly, the paper also shows a graph of the full-throttle volumetric efficiency at all rpm from idle to about 8700 rpm. The line peaks at a staggering 112 per cent at just over 8000 rpm. For comparison, the engineers also show the VE of the H22A 2.2-litre Prelude engine (still brilliant with 149kW at 7000 rpm) - has a peak VE of 'only' 102 percent, again achieved at peak power. So much for the traditional engine view that maximum volumetric efficiency occurs at peak torque!

 

Well as it stands now the 62-1 trim seems to be perfect for the H22a, using 102 as the peak VE at 7500rpm the charger is just about to fall from the highest effencity "island" on the map. 5500-7500 is all well within the max effenicty range and this turbo should be spooling at around 3K.

The 57 and 60 trims also are great turbo but the high redline seems to be droping out of max effencity range still in the 74% range of the turbo though.

So either way those seem to be the choice for me, I'll never have the car about 10PSI I don't believe but its gonna be at 5PSI for a good year or 2 before I'm ready for that power.

Thanks for that link Very good read. Love learning about this stuff.

 

The topic was covered last month:

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1790387

 

Here's the graph of VE vs Engine Speed for the F20c and H22.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you guys need to check out the all motor forum and do some reading!! there is no way you are at 100% VE much less 102%, that would be invisa boost. as RPM increases, your VE will most likely be decreasing. the dual runner manifold and VTEC help maintain a good VE throughout the RPM. no naturally aspirated engine will be at 100% VE.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you need to remember air, just like everything else has momentum and is affected by inertia, therefore it is possible for the cylinder to be over ambient pressure without the use of forced induction.

 

Heres another thought...

If VE is how much air an engine can ingest by itself, then on a turbocharged application doesnt that kinda go out the window? It would seem to me that the VE on a turbocharged motor would be regulated by the turbo, and not so much cylinder head or camshaft profiles correct? Idk, i'm really bored and thinkin too hard, haha.

 

the VE on a supercharged engine is relative to the turbo but as far as i'm aware i dont think you can just crank the boost up and then say i've got a VE od 350% although i remember reading about the old 180sx that some tune house had taking the CA18DET to over 650BHP and they were talking about the huge VE capabilities that the engine had, but yeah turbo's are cheating