backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Sup guys so I'm having a weird problem with my clutch. It became hard to press last week so I changed the master and slave out and got to bleeding. After a full bleed, the pedal only has partial engagement, I'd say 50%, near the floor. It feels ljke it begins to engage but then runs out of travel space. When observing the clutch fork, with no pressure on the pedal, it doesn't fully depress the slave cylinder. It stays partially engaged. I can't get into any gear with the car running, but if I start the car already in first it will drive. Just can't change gear. So I know the clutch isn't disengaging. I can however use a pry bar to leverage the fork and fully depress the slave, so the fork isn't stuck per se. It just isn't returning to its normal position wherein it would depress the slave and be disengaged. Thoughts or ideas?

Hope this all makes sense. This is what it looks like when in neutral: (sorry the pic is upside down but you can see the slave isn't contracting like it should)

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Oh and just so I'm clear, if I step on the pedal, the slave will push the fork out another inch to it's usual full outer range of movement. Except instead of it's outer range of movement being disengagement, the pedal feel is that it's partially engaged but not enough to get into gear. It just doesn't return to compressed slave disengagement point. That picture is as far as it returns without outside leverage.

viper_boy403

iTrader: (1)

Adjust the clutch at the master cylinder rod.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

What would that accomplish?

That could be what actually what got me into this mess in the first place, I believe. Idk. I adjusted the rod when the pedal became hard, and pretty much ever since then, despite my adjusting it back to where it was, I haven't been able to get into gear. And the slave cyl rod obviously hasn't fully retracted. I assumed the adjusting of the rod had nothing to do with the actual hydraulics- it just adjusted the pedal height

holmesnmanny

Whichever way you adjusted it, go in the opposite direction.

The problem is that you don't have enough travel in the push rod right now to move the slave, which moves the throwout bearing, which disengages/engages the clutch.

Make sure after you adjust it, you tighten the locknut so the push rod can't unscrew itself over time, which would bring it back to what you are now. which obviously isn't something you want.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

okay I adjusted it back the other way so the rod is fully extended and it seemed to help but I'm still not getting full travel out of the clutch rod. the slave cylinder still isn't fully compressed and it is still stuck engaged. do I need to bleed it again to affect the change?

holmesnmanny

You want to adjust it so that you have about a half inch of free clutch play at the pedal. Push the pedal down. You should go about a half inch before you feel pressure. Then, if it is still not moving the slave enough that probably means you still have air in the line.

I like to have someone pump the clutch pedal up and down while you're squeezing the rubber reservoir hose for the master cylinder. Sometimes a bubble gets trapped around there. Keep the cap open and just watch for bubbles to come up through the top through the fluid. Just go nuts squeezing that hose while someone is rapidly pumping the clutch pedal.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Alright I'm gonna go through this bleeding again tomorrow. I had a shop do a pressure bleed on the system today after my own bleeding efforts using a gallon of fluid seemed to effect no change. Though I question their competence, I figured even a monkey could bleed a system. But I still feel this is a hydraulic issue.

The shop told me that the transmission should be removed and inspected because if their pressure bleeder didn't restore full hydraulic control, then there must be a problem with the clutch fork and in turn, throw out bearing or even flywheel. I shook it off as a money grabbing scam (I didnt actually witness them use the pressure bleeder so who's to say) but it did get me thinking.. why isn't the clutch fork settling in the fully engaged position anyways, with the slave fully compressed? Whether theres air in the system or not, wouldn't that be the default position of the fork? Shouldn't it look like this pic below? I thought the forks' own clamping pressure would compress the slave..but it didnt. So that's what I'm asking.. shouldn't the fork have enough clamping force to fully compress the slave once the slave has been installed? Looking at my pic at the top post, that's the slave rod halfway out of the cylinder when there is no pedal pressure applied at all

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Ok so I had 20min to remove the slave cylinder and zip tie it out of the way so I could check the play in the clutch fork. In the following pictures I was able to move the clutch fork its full range of movement with a flick of the finger and it provided no resistance and in general felt incredibly loose, with some vertical play as well, almost as if it's not attached to anything. Does this mean my throw out bearing or worse is shot? All the parts are only a year and a half old.

viper_boy403

iTrader: (1)

its starting to sound like an internal failure, specifically the pressure plate. Any way you can look into the bellhousing through the fork hole?

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

That's something I heard, possibly pressure plate failure. Something to do with plate fingers sticking out? I've been doing a ton of clutch research lately.

I could take the boot off and use a mirror to reflect into the housing. What would I be looking for? There's a chance I could get my hand in there..

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Welp.. think I found the problem. The stud the clutch fork pivots on has broken most of the way through the fork.

I could feel broken and bent metal as well as a good bit of the stud poking through on the other side of the fork. It hasn't broken completely through, but that'd explain why the clutch engaged only a little bit.

So what are my options now? And I am to assume the is an underlying issue that caused this? The clutch is all oem, if that means anything.

Also found clutch disc fibers in there.

viper_boy403

iTrader: (1)

only option is to drop the trans and see what needs to be replaced. Anything else is pointless guessing.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Yep that's what I figured. Well, time to learn lol.

Even a year and a half old clutch and flywheel I might as well replace the pressure plate and clutch disc while I'm replacing the throwout bearing and clutch fork with new oem Honda parts.

The car is mostly used as a weekend car and sometimes daily driver. Has bolt ons but nothing serious and an h22 mated to h23 tranny. I intend to build the engine at some point but for now figure either an oem or stage 1/2 clutch would be best. I'd like to reuse the flywheel obviously if possible after a resurfacing. I hear Exedy kits are oem manufacture as gates is to timing belts?

So for my purposes is Exedy a good buy? Also holy **** I didn't think the pivot ball stud could break the fork. Must have been getting overextended. The ball stud felt like it was pretty far extended compared to pics I've seen.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

My gf is gonna kill me. Lol. Ive spent all weekend researching and reading instead of really doing things with the kids. Sigh. Haha.

So I'm going to go with Exedy stage 1 or Exedy OEM kit. Possibly a lightened Fidanza flywheel if budget permits (since I'm still paying off the last $1500 clutch job 18 months ago. Btw, F*CK Aamco. Double A honk honk blow me. I thought having a corporate backer would protect me in case of something like this. Nope!)

Anyways, so couple questions:
1) should I use the throwout bearing that comes with the Exedy clutch kit or buy oem Honda? I've read Exedy kits and oem Honda are both made by Nachi yet people still say to use the oem honda ones. And they say the bearings in the Exedy OEM kit are weaker than the Stage 1 kit too. Doesn't add up.
2) obviously this would be a good time to get the rear main seal done, as well as the intermediate shaft tranny axle seal. Am I missing any other "as long as I'm in there" seals?
3) my hydraulics are brand new and fully bled again. Is it possible to remove the tranny without depressurizing the hydraulic line?
4) How do I adjust the clutch as a whole so the fork doesn't overextend on the ball stud again? Would I simply adjust the stud to a specific length, if so, what?

Thanks everyone! It's annoying I have to do it because of a failure and the unknown, especially after the joyous Kaizenspeed timing belt fiasco 2 months ago, but it'll be a fun little project for next weekend. Unless it's not fun, and I decide to drop the car on myself instead to avoid a life of marriage, bills and taxes

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

Sorry for all your issues you have been having with this. Yes of course use the throw out bearing provided in the Exedy kit, I purchased the Exedy Oem kit with a 10 lbs flywheel and it has never given me any issues whatsoever. If you are a crazy person and need to have Honda oem parts then by all means purchase the throw out bearing from them but I think the one provided in the clutch kit is more then adequate and a good quality part. You are not missing any other seals those two would be great to replace while the transmission and clutch are off. It is possible to to remove the tranny without taking off the hydraulic line that goes to the slave cylinder, look at how you took off the slave in your #9 post on this thread. Just leave the slave hanging there and remove the one bolt by the cylinder head that clamps the hydro line to the transmission, then just remove the transmission and your golden no need to unbolt that hard line at all. As far as you adjusting the clutch as a whole the only way I do it is at the clutch pedal, the feel of the clutch is up to the stage you purchase but since you are going with either the oem or stage 1 you honestly wont tell much of a difference between the two.

snobordboy

I would go with an oem replacement Exedy, unless you are making decent power. I used one while my car was making 315 WHp or so on nitrous, doing burnout and launches, and never had an issue.

So far as the clutch fork issue, I was going to say it sounds just like when I broke the pivot ball inside the bell housing on my car. Cheap from Honda, but might be an item they have to order in for you.

If you actually damaged the fork I would be surprised.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Awesome thank you for clearing up any lingering questions I had. Yeah I'm sorry too lol but that's life right? Live and learn. Do it yourself and at least you can't blame anyone! Glad I won't have to mess with the hydraulics again at least. From what I've seen (praise the FSM and Youtube), this clutch removal should be no harder than a timing belt.. just time consuming. I'll listen to the Warriors games on the radio while I do it, since watching on tv has been giving me heart palpitations. Lol. Freaking LeBron. He can't keep scoring 40 a game with doubles in every stat line anyways. Although I'd understand if he drags the Cavs to the finish. After all I just cheered on madbum dragging the Giants to a title. Lol

I had read something about adjusting the ball stud to make sure I have adequate freeplay in the fork? I don't know if that's possible on a Honda since I forget where I read it but the stud seemed to have threads when I reached in there.

Yeah I actually read some of your posts from a while back, saying you had the Exedy OEM and abused it some and it held up. Given the price difference, its what I'll go with. I saw a new Stage 1 kit for $99 shipped on ebay but something tells me to avoid it. Drop shipping, or something. Just got that feeling to avoid. Haha.

As for what your feeling about the fork vs ball, idk man. Like I reached in there and the stud was solid, now perhaps the tip of the stud ball broke off and created a sharp edge and cut into the fork but I could feel most of the actual stud tip through the other side of the fork, and bent/broken metal all around it. When I'd move the fork back and forth, the stud was prairie ******* it lol. Hope you get what I mean. Lol. I have read about overengagement, which puts a ton of stress on the fork.

EDIT: I got my head further down into the bay and was able to see in the window. The stud has broken 80% through the fork. Couldn't see the condition of the stud ball itself but a good 5/8-3/4" of the stud threads are visible. Almost as if it was never threaded in deeply at all.

Thanks guys for your time and input. I know its a car forum and yada yada, but still, appreciated nonetheless. I'll keep ya'll posted. Go Warriors!

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Am I going to need to actually remove the axle nuts on both sides? My plan was to remove the lower balljoints and tie rod arms so I can pull the spjndles out and axles from the intermediate and tranny but I wanted to avoid removing the fork arms too if possible.

And my other question I forgot to ask is when I disconnect the 2? power steering hoses from the tranny (some guy on YouTube did this), should I be draining the ps reservoir first?

viper_boy403

iTrader: (1)

Driver side can stay in, passenger side needs to come out unless you pull the trans and engine together out the top. Trans itself the left axles needs to be removed

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Ok sounds good. Air tools have made this job a piece of cake so far. Though my 18 month son got scared and cried when I helped him use it to remove a bolt. He's an amazing little helper! He sits under the engine going oooh oooh oooh pressing every bolt like a button and getting all dirty. Mommy wasn't happy about that but such is life. I had an hour and a half total across a couple days now to work on it and have everything from the topside disconnected, the necessary suspension is removed and the car is raised a good 18"-24" front only on 7 jack stands and 2 huge wood blocks cuz I was paranoid so hope that'll be enough room to slide the tranny out.

When I disconnected the 2 power steering hoses down by the shifter cables I lost a **** ton of fluid all over. Oh well.

Parts are in from Honda. Mm I love new parts.

Couple quick questions-
1) I assume the p/s is not a vacuum system so I will only need to refill the reservoir?

2) I unplugged the vss wires next to/below the p/s hoses and shifter cables. Do I need to remove the actual vss? Some writeups say yes but I don't see why I'd need to. It looks snugly mounted to the tranny only

Also, the reserve light switch that looks like the end of a pen that'd you'd click in or out, is that connected to the tranny via plug? As it is I got it out with a 19mm wrench and tucked it up by the dizzy plugs. The wiring seemed to run to the main harness that stays on the car.

Lastly, do I have to remove the entire rear engine mount? Or just the stay bolts that touch the tranny? I haven't been under there yet to check, just not 100% understanding from what I read.

I think that's all my questions for now. Sorry if I sound like a newb! I've had 5 4th gens now and none have ever required a clutch job. Or any real work for that matter. Tomorrow evening I'm gonna remove the stiffner plate, clutch cover and tranny mount + bracket, then the bottom bolts. Loosen the top mount bolts, and have my dad remove them while I support the tranny and slide it back while he guides it. Once it's off the input shaft, I'll bring it down to my chest and we will guide it softly onto my old skateboard I modified with wood brackets lol.

How does the removal sound? Any ideas, better ways or tricks? Thank you all again for your time, it's appreciated to have a knowledgable community here to rely on for questions. You guys rock!

snobordboy

AS you go it should make sense, expect to have to work the tranny loose a bit, as it is probably pretty stuck on there after all this time.

The VSS I usually just undo the long 10 mm bolt that holds it to the tranny, and pop it out and fold it up out of the way with the lines connected.

Reverse switch should have 2 single wire plugs to disconnect it from the harness.

Rear engine/ trans mount I undo the mount and then just remove the whole bracket to make for more room when taking it out, same with the side trans mount.

Last clutch job I did was under pressure, and took me around 4 hrs by myself, had to get the car driving to dyno, and that was the night it died on the dyno from a slipped cam gear.

thirsk66

iTrader: (2)

This is the video I used for a general idea of removing the transmission for my clutch job it helped out a bit. Goodluck with yours and remember take your time there is no sense in rushing that and then only finding out you have to re-do it all over again.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

I read about your last clutch job! I think it was in your build thread. That sounded stressful as ****. Working under a deadline isn't fun.

So I guess what I did remove the hoses from the VSS, rather than leave them attached and remove the VSS itself. Oops. Guess it works either way.

I think the reverse switch was hardwired into the harness. Idk how. My buddy did all the electrical when we swapped the H22 4 years ago. He didn't seem to do a great job, cause I keep finding wires.

Sounds good on the engine and tranny mounts. I suppose it would be a good idea to support the engine with a jack too since that'll only leave 2 mounts with the side tranny and rear mount disabled.


bah the video didn't work. maybe it'll show up on my phone. I'm finding that I ask a question, then go to work on the car and figure it out easily. Lol. I guess its better to be prepared either way, haha.

Yeah I'm totally taking my time. Like, if my timing belt didn't line up, or slipped a tooth, big deal, takes an hour to remove some crap and reset it. Then you can test it. This, nope! Haha. There is no "test it". You gotta put it all together and pray it all works and lasts a long time.

So far labeling every last bolt has turned out to be a smart idea. I don't usually do that.

backinblue92

iTrader: (1)

Late Post but the family and I just got home from grandpas house where my dad and I worked on the tranny tonight. We got it out of the car intact, so yay.

I'll update with pics tomorrow in the daylight as I have some questions as to how the flywheel looks, looked actually fine to me but what the hell do I know Lol.

And I know you said you'd be surprised if the fork was broken, snoboardboy, but upon inspection the stud had gone right through the fork and in addition the throwout bearing had a broken clip on one end. Found no chunks of the fork, but metal shavings all over the inside of the bell housing along with a ton of clutch disc fibers, so I imagine the pieces of the fork that busted out got eaten up by the clutch assembly in some manner.

The clutch line hose that connects to the damper wound itself around the gear lever as the tranny was coming out and the weight of the transmission put quite a bit of force on the components until I saw that was holding it from fully dismounting. Luckily, it appears no damage was incurred to the clutch hydraulic line or gear lever as there was no play in the lever after it was fully removed. So I'm hoping it'll be fine.

Otherwise, this tranny removal has been a breeze. I'm at around 3 hours to this point, which I think is fair, considering I'm taking my time and having fun. Update with pics tomorrow. Have a good night folks!

PS- to anyone that reads this in the future. Just disconnect the VSS rather than the hoses leading to it. I lost pretty much all my PS fluid and possibly contaminated my tranny fluid after disconnecting the hoses then, not thinking, turned the wheels left and right while removing the axles.

Edit: I forgot to mention, out of curiosity-
1) my tranny did not have a rear engine mount bracket stay. That an issue? I haven't seen any problems but if its worthwhile to find one, I will.
2) It did not have an intake manifold stay either (both block and IM bolt holes were there, but nowhere close to lining up. IM stay bolt hole was 2+ inches offset to the driver fender). Possible the JDM H22 manifold is different? I have a '93 block but its OBD2, so is the IM different?
3) It did not have an engine stiffener. The FSM showed one with 2 bolts to the block, one to the tranny. My engine had one empty hole to the block, and same to tranny. Again, worthwhile to find one and install? or a difference in JDM vs USDM engines?

Alright. Way past bedtime. G'night