Chris F

Hi smart Prelude folks!

This is Corey's old car (which some of you know better than I do).

The big (mid) lobe on the exhaust lobe (#1) has a notch worn in it, and the rocker is worn bad! This is with supertech valve springs and retainers, revving to ~8300 RPM.

The others (#2, #3, #4 and all the intake ones) look OK, with some minor discoloration here and there but nothing I can feel with my fingernail.

So, like, WTF? Should I blame the cam/valvesprings combination, or blame it on oiling?

The car overheated last time I ran it, but I don't think this is related. Oil still looks in OK shape. (No, I haven't finished pulling the head, it's my first time and I'm going it alone)

Sorry, pic's aren't perfect, but I think they show it well enough.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

I had the same probs with the exhaust cam of my crower 3's. Dont know the how or why but yeah that sucks and those things arent cheap either.

mgags7

wow....are you sure the valve lash was adjusted right??

Mykizism

valve lash wouldnt have have caused that issue.. the exhaust side is the last part of the head to get oil, if you had low oil pressure or something of the sort that would cause it.

i had an issue like that before it freaked me out, intake side was Perfect the exhaust side all 4 cyls were like that.. it totally sucked but after speaking with tom at port flow he said that lack of oil would cause that more than anything else.

he def stated that it wouldnt be supertech springs/retainers.. as my setup consist of supertech valves/dual springs/retainers. he and earl stated that the seat pressure of the springs are not high enough to cause that..

i was running that setup along with OEM cams... but i have a oil pressure gauge and was running low oil pressure about 4 kg/cm^3 at Vtec which is bad


Modified by Mykizism at 1:04 AM 9/24/2006

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bb4ever &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow....are you sure the valve lash was adjusted right??</TD></TR></TABLE>

What's a valve lash? I don't remember seeing one. Is it attached to the valve somewhere?

Damnit Corey, you scammed me, no valve lashes!

(Just kidding)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mykizism &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">he def stated that it would be supertech springs/retainers.. as my setup consist of supertech valves/dual springs/retainers. he and earl stated that the seat pressure of the springs are not high enough to cause that..</TD></TR></TABLE>

You meant "wouldn't be supertech springs/retainers", right? As in, it's not the valve spring's fault...

Maybe time to invest in an accusump. Ouch!

Corey will probably respond sometime... he "shimmed" the oil pump, not sure what that means? Trying to raise pressure?

I might also try something thicker than Mobil1 5w30, that stuff is pretty thin but never given me issues before.

InvaderTrax

Good definition of valve lash:

http://www.everything2.com/ind...0lash

Silver Surfer

i've recently been going through the type-s cam threads.....and this looks like the exact same problem people have with them if you don't change out the springs/retainers....it wears on the middle exhaust lobe

i know you said it was not the seat pressure, but what about the installed spring height?

the problem with the type-s is that the valve guides are lower on the type-s motor so you have to compensate with the spring height

here is a quote from one of the threads
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PocketRockets Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I install crower components all the time, especially H22's......and I actually happen to know what I am doing .

the Crower titanium retainers are designed to sit +0.060" higher up the valve stem.....This allows high lift cams to be used without changing the valve guides....
Honda installs type S cams in Japan of ocurse, but the head is different, the valve guides are installed deeper in the head......type S cams have 0.471" lift, I have some here and I also have a 2001 Type S here.....I have my own flow bench so I am quite involved in heads/engines....

installing high lift cams such as the factory Type S head or any brand, without changing the guides/retainer installed height means the retainers hits the valve seal/guide....a stock H22 head has the retainer hit the guide at 0.490 of lift...

back to Crower.....so crower does it correctly, as the factory rockers vary in forgings, some and most interfere with this newly raised retainer, so they have the be slightly "clearanced", its quite as easy modification to do once you know whats going on and are set up to do it.

I change the valve guides in every head that comes in this shop, the guides material is upgraded to manganese bronze and they are "honed" to fit to each individual valve.....nice accurate tolerances get even more critical as we seek to extract more HP from engines.

I am into all kinds of stuff, I have Crower make a stage 4 cams for the street for me that still retains a non-vtec idle lobe that is acceptable.

Frank
Pocketrockets Racing.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

bluedlude

I guess theoretically, that lobe would be the first to interfere with anything. but at the same time, if it was becasue of the different installed spring height all of the rockers would show wear, not just one. I guess I'm slightly confused by the rocker arms to tell you the truth. how do the dowels in the rockers control which lobe its moving to? I would pull out the rocker shaft and check that set of rockers. there is a little oiling pin on the idle rocker that sprays toward the center.

h22 civic

thats typically waht happens with low or no oil psi example breaking a oil pump gear and running the car for a few seconds before relizing it the h22 rite from the getty up has a very poor oil system hence this causing excessive wear on the lobes and rockers ,,,but on a good note their is a cure ,,peterson

md23vtec

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Silver Surfer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i've recently been going through the type-s cam threads.....and this looks like the exact same problem people have with them if you don't change out the springs/retainers....it wears on the middle exhaust lobe

i know you said it was not the seat pressure, but what about the installed spring height?
the problem with the type-s is that the valve guides are lower on the type-s motor so you have to compensate with the spring height

here is a quote from one of the threads
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Retainers weren't shinned correctly possibly and or to much spring pressure. My theory.

Rosko

iTrader: (1)

oil could be the case, maybe a clogged port somewhere? mine happened on the vtec lobe of the #1 cyl exhaust side only (I think thats the farthest away oil wise)

my setup was all crower with offset retainers so I dont think that was the case for me anyways.

Mykizism

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by md23vtec &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Retainers weren't shinned correctly possibly and or to much spring pressure. My theory.</TD></TR></TABLE>

why.. valve lash, spring height.. wouldnt play a factor on the vtec lobe.. out of vtec.. that lobe is only pushed back into position via the lost-motion assembly.. which is a spring.. or a hydralic lifter type of device.. depending on the year of the head.

but over all that middle lobe isnt doing anything except floating around until vtec hits

Honda318dx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mykizism &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">


but over all that middle lobe isnt doing anything except floating around until vtec hits</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is a roadrace car, its in VTEC for the entire 30 minute races...

I don't think its an oiling issue because the same thing would have happened to the #4 and #1 cylinders at least, as they are furthest from the oil.

I really think the valve lash may have been just a little to tight there and it was trying to compress more than it would allow.

This same exact thing happened when I only installed the supertech springs and retainers with STOCK cams. Car ran fine and didn't notice anything wrong until I pulled the engine and all 4 middles lobes were pitted. I have a feeling to tight of valve lash may have caused that, because I wanted all the lift I could get out of the cams, with the valves still closing. I could be completely wrong though.

This did not cause the engine to blow/overheat, I know that much. When it did it before 3 years ago, the motor was still runnning very well, I only took it apart to add the JUN cams and noticed it.

Mykizism

that makes sense.. but man i wish i knew what was the cause of that.. i had this happened to me before on all 4 exhaust vtec lobes.. but i was running low oil pressure due to bearing failure... i hope someone can shed more light on this

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I really think the valve lash may have been just a little to tight there and it was trying to compress more than it would allow.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wonder if the All-Motor guys will have more info. Crossposted.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1763499

98TypeSH

Just a quick question for the OP.

If you dont know what "valve lash" is, why are you pulling the head apart ?

At the very least a new cam and new set of rockers are needed. Did the motor actually go ?

alterdcreations

funny, alot of people think this only happens with typs-s cams.
funny

alterdcreations

i hope he didn't know about this before he sold you the car

bluedlude

can someone please explain how the dowel in the rockers is actuated!!!!!

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 98TypeSH &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you dont know what "valve lash" is, why are you pulling the head apart ?

At the very least a new cam and new set of rockers are needed. Did the motor actually go ?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I was joking about the valve lash. I never measured it, so I don't know what it is. Corey thinks it was too tight, so maybe it was too tight.

The motor "went" but for another reason, it overheated and blew a head gasket.

bluedlude

OK, im going out on a limb here. and judging by the mechanical aspect of things, the VTEC actuating piston in the rocker has to be stuck. so when your car is trying to run the low cam profile, that rocker is still stuck in VTEC wearing the hell out of the cam and rocker. but i am likely TOTALLY wrong. just trying to throw out some ideas.

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK, im going out on a limb here. and judging by the mechanical aspect of things, the VTEC actuating piston in the rocker has to be stuck. so when your car is trying to run the low cam profile, that rocker is still stuck in VTEC wearing the hell out of the cam and rocker. but i am likely TOTALLY wrong. just trying to throw out some ideas.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, it's a racecar, so it's literally always in VTEC unless I'm in the paddock. If it was a street car, that'd be a good guess and I wouldn't have thought of it.

bluedlude

so you are telling me that its NEVER out of VTEC?

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bluedlude &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so you are telling me that its NEVER out of VTEC?</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's towed to the track, idles (out of VTEC) for a few minutes in the paddock, and then it's on the race track which I usually try not to let the RPM's drop below 5000. With a redline around 8300, it's not hard to do.

So, "basically" it's never out of VTEC. Yes, it's out of VTEC for some time during cool-down laps and such. I didn't mean to imply I had some sort of "VTEC killer" or hard-wired the VTEC solenoid.

98TypeSH

As long as the headgasket and cam/rocker are the only casualties, id say your looking pretty good.

JUN specs say stock valve lash. I think its about time i scan those docs onto my comptuer.

keep us updated on your progress.