4ws problems
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Yea for sure, checking the code takes like 3 minutes.. bend a paper clip, reach in, grab the jumper, short it .. read the code, write it down, post on honda-tech.com ..
the longest part is waiting for us to reply .. I've got the helms with full diagnostic and description of all the codes the 4ws will spit out.
the longest part is waiting for us to reply .. I've got the helms with full diagnostic and description of all the codes the 4ws will spit out.
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: hull, yorkshire, england
Re: (92HPSI4WS)
i got error code 71 which i read was temporaray so i reset my ecu again and it works ok when the car has been stood for a while but if i turn it off then on again the light stays on and the wheels dont turn and i keep getting code 71
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
71 is a DTC error code, a temporary driving condition or something like that, it didnt really make sense to me in the book. What I would recommend is clean all the terminals on the 4WS ECU with some rubbing alcohol and also under the car where the 4WS unit hooks up, there will be a square box you'll need to take 4 screws out of and there will be the wiring hookup under there, just do it one at a time so you dont mix up the wires and then pull the radio fuse and put it back in, then start the car.
If this still doesn't clear it, goto the shop and get a 4WS alignment done by honda.
Code 71 also comes on if the car is started and the tires are against a curb or there is agressive driving that makes the rear tires go out of alignment based on what the ECU expects it should be.
This could also mean there is a part of the rear suspension that might need replacing and is possibly making the rear tire wobble a bit. Although it doesn't make sense if the car is not moving when the light goes on ...
Give us more information / conditions of where you are/ what your doing when the light comes on or doesnt come on if ever.
but for sure, clean all the terminals and get a wheel alignment and if that does not do it then .. maybe just pull the light bulb and disconnect the ecu again ?? (shrug)
If this still doesn't clear it, goto the shop and get a 4WS alignment done by honda.
Code 71 also comes on if the car is started and the tires are against a curb or there is agressive driving that makes the rear tires go out of alignment based on what the ECU expects it should be.
This could also mean there is a part of the rear suspension that might need replacing and is possibly making the rear tire wobble a bit. Although it doesn't make sense if the car is not moving when the light goes on ...
Give us more information / conditions of where you are/ what your doing when the light comes on or doesnt come on if ever.
but for sure, clean all the terminals and get a wheel alignment and if that does not do it then .. maybe just pull the light bulb and disconnect the ecu again ?? (shrug)
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
4WS
Right:
The fuse may have been removed if the option was not functioning correctly; some dodgy car sales places will use these tactics unfortunatly
What you should know about the 4ws System:
The 4th generation 4ws system will steer the rear wheels the opposite direction of the front when the wheel is turned
*past a certain angle
*and The handbrake is off and the vehicle has started in motion (speed detected).
The fact the cars got to be in motion was implemented to increase rear tyre life.
When in motion and steering gently below the set angle, the rear wheels will start to turn in the same direction by upto 1" making motorway lane changes smoother!
Now the one limitation of the 4thGen system is that it will override and steer rears in the opposite direction no matter the speed your going if you meet the set angle.
The speed connetion to the 4ws steering computer only lets the car know when it is in motion.
So not having the ability to check speed and logic circuit to see if it is safe like the 5th Gens do; it makes it dangerouse for emergency manouvers if you steer 'Too' sharp.
So if you '**** the wheel at speed then you can prepare to spin or leave the road.
A while back I had a tyre that blew out on me in mine and it veered left and was about to go into the ditch, I slammed the wheel right to keep it on the road but it was too late...
Steering angle was met, 4ws steered the rears the opposite way, the car just gripped, swung right with incredible road holding (g-forces were really felt!), alloys hit the curb straight on and the car JUMPED! 7meters sideways over a bitch and through a bush! landing straight and engine still running in second going straight.
Luckily apart form two front controll arms and 2 Lower supporting rods + front alloys; the bodywork was only scraped.
When the wing was removed there was no damage!, just replaced that and the passenger door and windscreen. All door innnards and window were protected by the simply HUGE side impact bar.
Took it to a jig and the chassis was all fine!
..back to the point Honda identified this as a potential issue so in the 5th Generation fitted a speed sensor on the gearbox to prevent this happening in the future.
-
By the way, the steering wheel is slighty to the left because the guy who has aligned the car has not clamped the steering wheel straight then re-tightened it in the alignment proscess.
As for the rear wheels feeling loose... If it Shimmeys 'smoothley and accuratly' at low speed sharp steering then thats normal.
If if feel like the backend has a mind of its own when you are not steering then check the two rear tie-rods & rod ends and check the lower ball joint is correctly toqued between 37-44ft-lb maximum and that the steering tie-rod ends are securly attaced to the rear steering knuckles.
Another important thing i think you should check is that the spindles are securly attached (Torqued to 135ft-lbs for each nut)
Check lower control arm rear bushings for wear, they do take a beating over time so If the one nearest the chassis have split then that also will leave the rear wheels feeling insecure.
Also only Honda should do the wheel alignment. They use diagnol laser squares to ensure their system is accuratly configured. And remember, If you or the previous owner has hit a kurb with the front wheels the you may have bent the steering knuckle out of camber, this in time will be fatal.
When I had my alignment done by one of the Charlie Browns monkey shops they did not set mine up correctly (as they told me they had 4ws equip which they didnt!) and the front left wheel went completely bald on the inside but like new on the outside shoulder; they had counteracted the pulling caused by the incorrect camber by overcompensating with toe-in! Not the best of ideas.
This is what caused my tire to blow out (incorrect alignment and a damaged knucle from letting my friend 'try' and drive my car, he drove against a big stone at the side of the road which caused me to get my alignment done in a hurry, which caused the blowout after steering back too sharp! )
Also on my JDM the light stays on all the time when motors running and the unit at the rear is a solenoid push-pull tubuler type; that also has a self alignment sys that will straighten your rears paralel to the sil when you start the engine up.
By the way, the computer in the boot controls the rear steering as i said based on the angle and only if the car is in motion.
The Front steering rack sensors if damaged (or not present if a 2ws was fitted as a replacement) will cause the Rear wheel steering sys to throw a code but dont think it would be 71??
And what has the radio fuse got to do with the 4WS sys?
Anyway, If you want to check the angle sensors..
Name & Location
Front steering main sensor is located on left side of steering column.
Rear steering main sensor is located on left of solenoid*(the actuator motor)]
Rear sub sensor is located on right of solenoid.
PS: How much is a helms manual and do they do a uk or JDM one. I would be intereste din that!
Cheers
Will
The fuse may have been removed if the option was not functioning correctly; some dodgy car sales places will use these tactics unfortunatly
What you should know about the 4ws System:
The 4th generation 4ws system will steer the rear wheels the opposite direction of the front when the wheel is turned
*past a certain angle
*and The handbrake is off and the vehicle has started in motion (speed detected).
The fact the cars got to be in motion was implemented to increase rear tyre life.
When in motion and steering gently below the set angle, the rear wheels will start to turn in the same direction by upto 1" making motorway lane changes smoother!
Now the one limitation of the 4thGen system is that it will override and steer rears in the opposite direction no matter the speed your going if you meet the set angle.
The speed connetion to the 4ws steering computer only lets the car know when it is in motion.
So not having the ability to check speed and logic circuit to see if it is safe like the 5th Gens do; it makes it dangerouse for emergency manouvers if you steer 'Too' sharp.
So if you '**** the wheel at speed then you can prepare to spin or leave the road.
A while back I had a tyre that blew out on me in mine and it veered left and was about to go into the ditch, I slammed the wheel right to keep it on the road but it was too late...
Steering angle was met, 4ws steered the rears the opposite way, the car just gripped, swung right with incredible road holding (g-forces were really felt!), alloys hit the curb straight on and the car JUMPED! 7meters sideways over a bitch and through a bush! landing straight and engine still running in second going straight.
Luckily apart form two front controll arms and 2 Lower supporting rods + front alloys; the bodywork was only scraped.
When the wing was removed there was no damage!, just replaced that and the passenger door and windscreen. All door innnards and window were protected by the simply HUGE side impact bar.
Took it to a jig and the chassis was all fine!
..back to the point Honda identified this as a potential issue so in the 5th Generation fitted a speed sensor on the gearbox to prevent this happening in the future.
-
By the way, the steering wheel is slighty to the left because the guy who has aligned the car has not clamped the steering wheel straight then re-tightened it in the alignment proscess.
As for the rear wheels feeling loose... If it Shimmeys 'smoothley and accuratly' at low speed sharp steering then thats normal.
If if feel like the backend has a mind of its own when you are not steering then check the two rear tie-rods & rod ends and check the lower ball joint is correctly toqued between 37-44ft-lb maximum and that the steering tie-rod ends are securly attaced to the rear steering knuckles.
Another important thing i think you should check is that the spindles are securly attached (Torqued to 135ft-lbs for each nut)
Check lower control arm rear bushings for wear, they do take a beating over time so If the one nearest the chassis have split then that also will leave the rear wheels feeling insecure.
Also only Honda should do the wheel alignment. They use diagnol laser squares to ensure their system is accuratly configured. And remember, If you or the previous owner has hit a kurb with the front wheels the you may have bent the steering knuckle out of camber, this in time will be fatal.
When I had my alignment done by one of the Charlie Browns monkey shops they did not set mine up correctly (as they told me they had 4ws equip which they didnt!) and the front left wheel went completely bald on the inside but like new on the outside shoulder; they had counteracted the pulling caused by the incorrect camber by overcompensating with toe-in! Not the best of ideas.
This is what caused my tire to blow out (incorrect alignment and a damaged knucle from letting my friend 'try' and drive my car, he drove against a big stone at the side of the road which caused me to get my alignment done in a hurry, which caused the blowout after steering back too sharp! )
Also on my JDM the light stays on all the time when motors running and the unit at the rear is a solenoid push-pull tubuler type; that also has a self alignment sys that will straighten your rears paralel to the sil when you start the engine up.
By the way, the computer in the boot controls the rear steering as i said based on the angle and only if the car is in motion.
The Front steering rack sensors if damaged (or not present if a 2ws was fitted as a replacement) will cause the Rear wheel steering sys to throw a code but dont think it would be 71??
And what has the radio fuse got to do with the 4WS sys?
Anyway, If you want to check the angle sensors..
Name & Location
Front steering main sensor is located on left side of steering column.
Rear steering main sensor is located on left of solenoid*(the actuator motor)]
Rear sub sensor is located on right of solenoid.
PS: How much is a helms manual and do they do a uk or JDM one. I would be intereste din that!
Cheers
Will
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Re: 4WS (OTT)
Holy crap thats a tonne of Info.
However, when at a stand still parked and in neutral If I turn my steering wheel I can turn my back tires. I watch myself in the dairy queen drive through in the reflection of the doors, its cool seeing the back tires turn.
The actual operation of the 4WS in our 4th gens (USDM at least) will turn the wheels opposite when going slow to provide sharper u-turns and better parking etc. When going fast (18mph+) will turn the back wheels the same direction after a certain speed.
The VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) feeds this signal into the 4WS unit.
There are actually 5 sensors for the 4Gen 4WS system.
1. Front Main Steering angle sensor - Actually located IN the steering column. It senses the angle of the steering wheel which feeds the signal to the 4ws unit and at what angle the rear wheels should turn.
2. Front Sub Steering Angle Sensor - In the front power steering rack.
3. Rear Main Steering angle sensor
4. Rear Sub Steering Angle Sensor
Both of the rear's are located in the 4WS actuator that can be seen from the underside of the car.
5. Vehicle Speed Sensor. Feeds the speed of the vehicle into the 4ws ECU/speedo , engine ECU etc.
I wish I had a scanner / digicam because there are a few pages in the helms (17-16 through 17-19) that would really show and describe how the 4ws system works.
Not included are the 2 rear wheel sensors. I beleive these are incombination of vehicle speed and for the ABs system but also play a part with the 4WS in determining speed at which the vehicle is traveling.
This is turning into an all about 4WS thread. OTT, it is interesting what you wrote about it in the mode where it turns the tires when the wheel hits a certain angle. Too bad you had to learn that first hand- glad your ok and your baby too!
As far as where the book can be purchased, http://www.helminc.com You can probably purchase just the 4WS section as well (steering) for all years.
However, when at a stand still parked and in neutral If I turn my steering wheel I can turn my back tires. I watch myself in the dairy queen drive through in the reflection of the doors, its cool seeing the back tires turn.
The actual operation of the 4WS in our 4th gens (USDM at least) will turn the wheels opposite when going slow to provide sharper u-turns and better parking etc. When going fast (18mph+) will turn the back wheels the same direction after a certain speed.
The VSS (Vehicle Speed Sensor) feeds this signal into the 4WS unit.
There are actually 5 sensors for the 4Gen 4WS system.
1. Front Main Steering angle sensor - Actually located IN the steering column. It senses the angle of the steering wheel which feeds the signal to the 4ws unit and at what angle the rear wheels should turn.
2. Front Sub Steering Angle Sensor - In the front power steering rack.
3. Rear Main Steering angle sensor
4. Rear Sub Steering Angle Sensor
Both of the rear's are located in the 4WS actuator that can be seen from the underside of the car.
5. Vehicle Speed Sensor. Feeds the speed of the vehicle into the 4ws ECU/speedo , engine ECU etc.
I wish I had a scanner / digicam because there are a few pages in the helms (17-16 through 17-19) that would really show and describe how the 4ws system works.
Not included are the 2 rear wheel sensors. I beleive these are incombination of vehicle speed and for the ABs system but also play a part with the 4WS in determining speed at which the vehicle is traveling.
This is turning into an all about 4WS thread. OTT, it is interesting what you wrote about it in the mode where it turns the tires when the wheel hits a certain angle. Too bad you had to learn that first hand- glad your ok and your baby too!
As far as where the book can be purchased, http://www.helminc.com You can probably purchase just the 4WS section as well (steering) for all years.
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
Cheers 92HPSI4WS
Yohan, I'd reather people use my experience with 4ws to aid others and prevent them making the same mistake!
Now 18mph+ Threshold was introduced on the 5th Generaiton prelude, the 4th Gen does not have the Speed sensor on the gearbox nor does it have the logic sequence to determine wether it is safe to turn the rears.
I was travelling on a b-road at about 60. The angle was the 'decisive' factor.
PLEASE: If you have a 4th Gen. The 4ws WILL kick-in when you steer sharp; this IS dangerous at high speeds. It cannot determine wether it is safe to turn them!
The sensors I listed are the only ones on the USDM 4th Gen (the information is from USA Honda service. I have full diagrams etc and torque specs).
After a bit of research, the helms you have covers both models 4th & 5th
If you have been in motion and stop it will still steer for a minute or so after (not sure how long??)
This is like this for parking, as you may have to pause before say... reverse parralel parking into a space.
The ABS sys is not giving any input whatsoever to the 4ws sys.
As i said before, the 4th Gen 4ws sys takes the two variables:
*in motion
*Front rack angle
And the 4ws feeds its info to the control unit in the boot, No information is passed between the ECU and 4ws computer.
If you would like a copy of my Prelude datastore (alll 4th Gen USDM and JDM lude info) IM me.
PS: Yohan, got any pics of that red beast of yours? Would like to see it, you've got the same clear front indicators as me!
Yohan, I'd reather people use my experience with 4ws to aid others and prevent them making the same mistake!
Now 18mph+ Threshold was introduced on the 5th Generaiton prelude, the 4th Gen does not have the Speed sensor on the gearbox nor does it have the logic sequence to determine wether it is safe to turn the rears.
I was travelling on a b-road at about 60. The angle was the 'decisive' factor.
PLEASE: If you have a 4th Gen. The 4ws WILL kick-in when you steer sharp; this IS dangerous at high speeds. It cannot determine wether it is safe to turn them!
The sensors I listed are the only ones on the USDM 4th Gen (the information is from USA Honda service. I have full diagrams etc and torque specs).
After a bit of research, the helms you have covers both models 4th & 5th
If you have been in motion and stop it will still steer for a minute or so after (not sure how long??)
This is like this for parking, as you may have to pause before say... reverse parralel parking into a space.
The ABS sys is not giving any input whatsoever to the 4ws sys.
As i said before, the 4th Gen 4ws sys takes the two variables:
*in motion
*Front rack angle
And the 4ws feeds its info to the control unit in the boot, No information is passed between the ECU and 4ws computer.
If you would like a copy of my Prelude datastore (alll 4th Gen USDM and JDM lude info) IM me.
PS: Yohan, got any pics of that red beast of yours? Would like to see it, you've got the same clear front indicators as me!
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
OTT
[QUOTE]If you have been in motion and stop it will still steer for a minute or so after..QUOTE]
I checked and it stops the rear wheels turning after you have stopped the engine, then (This is my JDM btw) will start them moving again after motion is detected (engine must be running!)
On the JDM Nissan Skyline R35 GTT (Single tubo 2.5 Litre)
Nissan seems to have copied the 5th Gen 4ws system onto this model, and They drive very much like a Prelude (How they shimmy at low speed and glide through corners)!
Modified by OTT at 6:53 PM 12/24/2003
[QUOTE]If you have been in motion and stop it will still steer for a minute or so after..QUOTE]
I checked and it stops the rear wheels turning after you have stopped the engine, then (This is my JDM btw) will start them moving again after motion is detected (engine must be running!)
On the JDM Nissan Skyline R35 GTT (Single tubo 2.5 Litre)
Nissan seems to have copied the 5th Gen 4ws system onto this model, and They drive very much like a Prelude (How they shimmy at low speed and glide through corners)!
Modified by OTT at 6:53 PM 12/24/2003
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,109
Likes: 0
From: Sportscar Heaven, England
thats for a standard retrim, they charged alot more for the top-end tailored finish.
I havent had it done but then i decided the stock interior is fine as it is
Get some new wheels 17" max, after that, apart from looking minted you'll lose:
Acceleration, handling, lots of money on very soft compound tyres as not many lasting harder compunds are available for the larger sizes and smaller aspect ratios (% of width that is the tyre-wall height).
If your car is your daily driver it'll nearly skin you for cash!
I havent had it done but then i decided the stock interior is fine as it is
Get some new wheels 17" max, after that, apart from looking minted you'll lose:
Acceleration, handling, lots of money on very soft compound tyres as not many lasting harder compunds are available for the larger sizes and smaller aspect ratios (% of width that is the tyre-wall height).
If your car is your daily driver it'll nearly skin you for cash!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
OTT: I take it you recommend doing a 5lug conversion on the 4gen and use stock 5gen tires instead (They look better on 4th IMO.. satan_srv did this.) and YES its compatible with 4WS.
I beleive the rear brakes need changing though for the new hubs?... not sure, there is write ups though.
nod92vtec: hows the 4ws problem working out as of yet??
I beleive the rear brakes need changing though for the new hubs?... not sure, there is write ups though.
nod92vtec: hows the 4ws problem working out as of yet??
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: hull, yorkshire, england
Re: (yohan)
my steering works fine when the cars been stood for a while. If i drive to shops leave it for 2 mins then start it again my light stays on, i just wait a few minutes then try again its a ballache but safer.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 506
Likes: 1
From: Calgary, AB, Canada
Do you park with your wheels turned??
Thats very strange that you'd be having that problem ... OH, have you tried to recalibrate the system ?
Pull the radio fuse to reset the constant power to the 4ws computer.. leave it out for 10mins .. then put it back in, start the car and turn the steering wheel (from center) all the way left and then all the way right .. I think this registeres the 4ws settings?
Nobody has brought this up yet but well worth a try. I'll check the helms when I'm home for a better description.
Thats very strange that you'd be having that problem ... OH, have you tried to recalibrate the system ?
Pull the radio fuse to reset the constant power to the 4ws computer.. leave it out for 10mins .. then put it back in, start the car and turn the steering wheel (from center) all the way left and then all the way right .. I think this registeres the 4ws settings?
Nobody has brought this up yet but well worth a try. I'll check the helms when I'm home for a better description.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Turkey
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,358
Likes: 0
From: MA, USA
Re: (nod92vtec)
damn that site is slow as **** now... if anyone wants me to e-mail them the 4WS manual tomorow morning PM me your e-mail address.
Please don't ask me past 12/30/03... I don't really have the time to do this all the time
Please don't ask me past 12/30/03... I don't really have the time to do this all the time
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