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Old 05-09-2007, 01:00 PM
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Default E85...?

Just curious what the logistics are behind this? Are any bike people using it yet?

Im not really looking to do it myself since its not readily available around here, but id like to here some tech info on it. whats needed to do it and the pros and cons..

i searched nothing came up
Old 05-09-2007, 01:06 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Mag00n)

85% eth... 15% pertrolium
Old 05-09-2007, 01:10 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (MSchu)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MSchu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">85% eth... 15% pertrolium</TD></TR></TABLE>


i know that

thanks for contributing to the discussion though


i hear youd have to fill up about 1.4x more often which would be fine in a car but on a bike that could def be a pain.
Old 05-09-2007, 01:16 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Mag00n)

I dont particularly see it being applied to motorcycles until they start using a more potent form of the ethanol, similar to what they are using the in the CampCar series.

I would say that as long as there isnt anyone really complaining too much about fuel mileage for their bikes and/or america hasnt totally phased out petrol, the bike market will stay with the current fueling methods.

When it becomes feasible and profitable for the big 4 to produce an ethanol bike, they will.
Old 05-09-2007, 01:17 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Mag00n)

While I havent seen/heard of anyone using e85 on a bike, I imagine it would be awesome. E85 has been proven to make on average 5% more horsepower, and can sometimes provide slightly better fuel mileage.

Taken from Wikipedia.com :

"E-85 ethanol is used in engines modified to accept higher concentrations of ethanol. Such flexible-fuel engines are designed to run on any mixture of gasoline or ethanol with up to 85% ethanol by volume. The primary differences from non-FFVs is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, the use of fuel pumps capable of operating with electrically conductive (ethanol) instead of non-conducting dielectric (gasoline) fuel, specially-coated wear-resistant engine parts, fuel injection control systems having a wider range of pulse widths (for injecting approximately 60% more fuel), the selection of stainless steel fuel lines (sometimes lined with plastic), the selection of stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks, and, in some cases, the use of acid-neutralizing motor oil. For vehicles with fuel-tank mounted fuel pumps, additional differences to prevent arcing, as well as flame arrestors positioned in the tank's fill pipe, are also sometimes used.[citations needed]"
Old 05-09-2007, 02:06 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Mag00n)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mag00n &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Just curious what the logistics are behind this? Are any bike people using it yet?

Im not really looking to do it myself since its not readily available around here, but id like to here some tech info on it. whats needed to do it and the pros and cons..

i searched nothing came up</TD></TR></TABLE>

ive already done a bit of research on e85 for motorcycles. Wikipedia says that it can improve gas mileage which i say is a load of BS!!! in fact ill got post my own article on wiki saying it doesn't. anyone can post anything on there. I dont think bikes will ever be sold to run on E85 but that doesnt mean you cant mod your own to do so. most of the research i did was for E10 which i currently run in my bike. calculating BTUs per unit it requires 3.7% more fuel and makes 1.7% more heat energy. i did notice an increase in power though i haven't dynoed it, the wheel does come up easier. I just increased my fuel my 4% over my old map.

E85 would require you to get rid of your rubber lines and get new fuel injectors to supply the extra fuel. gas mileage would go to crap. with the E10 i didnt notice much of a difference in fuel economy around 7 miles less per tank. (160 miles)

what is the octane rating of E85? i know a lot of the drift cars are using it cuz the extra fuel helps cool the engine
Old 05-09-2007, 02:17 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Mag00n)

Tell me why you would want to. Is it alot cheaper than normal gasoline?
Old 05-09-2007, 02:33 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (The_Head)

i just read somewhere that e85 is actually worse for the environment than normal gasoline, so i don't see it going anywhere fast.
Old 05-09-2007, 03:26 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (rdblckSV650S)

well the scam with E85 is that it fluctuates right along with regular gas... you would think that with a nearly endless readily available supply of corn, it would be at a steady lower rate. but nope, it goes up and down right with gas, it's just 30 cents cheaper no matter what gas is.
Old 05-09-2007, 04:42 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (rol1in0n20s)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rol1in0n20s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">well the scam with E85 is that it fluctuates right along with regular gas... you would think that with a nearly endless readily available supply of corn, it would be at a steady lower rate. but nope, it goes up and down right with gas, it's just 30 cents cheaper no matter what gas is.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i dont know what e85 is but E10 requires 3.7% more fuel to be stoich.

gas here is $3.10 for regular and $3.00 for E10 so its an extra 11.5 cents per gallon equivalent but only 10 cents cheaper which means its actually more expensive. on the bright side thats 10% of your fuel thats coming from the US and not going to someone elses economy
Old 05-09-2007, 05:01 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

someone else's economy? we took over all the relevant economies... iraqi freedom? more like liberating some oil dollars into the Bush family trust. Even if oil wasn't the reason for us having been in the middle east for the last 5 years, you would think that there would be some residual effects on our supply and that gas prices might go down a little, but nope. high as ever.

and regular gas here (chicagoland) IS e10... there's no seperate option, they just slapped stickers on all the pumps that say "this fuel contains at least 10% ethanol" and sell it as regular
Old 05-09-2007, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (rol1in0n20s)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rol1in0n20s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">someone else's economy? we took over all the relevant economies... iraqi freedom? more like liberating some oil dollars into the Bush family trust. Even if oil wasn't the reason for us having been in the middle east for the last 5 years, you would think that there would be some residual effects on our supply and that gas prices might go down a little, but nope. high as ever.

and regular gas here (chicagoland) IS e10... there's no seperate option, they just slapped stickers on all the pumps that say "this fuel contains at least 10% ethanol" and sell it as regular</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok first of all you SOUND set as a liberal that protests the US being out there and thats cool. I'm not saying I agree nor am i saying i disagree. I can tell you right now, I spend over half the year out there each year and and the 12 to 16 hour days i work trying to keeping people like you safe and what i do has nothing to do with oil. hypothetically, ill just say it was. to get that oil to the US takes a lot of money for shipping and paying other people from other countries. that money that is spent in the pumping and shipping is money thats not making it back to our economy.

sorry to snap a little bit but I'm just tired of hearing people protesting things without educating them selves in first. Ill say this, when you turn on CNN, are they telling you the whole story or are they tell you what they want you to hear. who owns CNN? weather the news is right or wrong please, please educate yourself.


Modified by 85 at 1:11 PM 5/10/2007


Modified by 85 at 1:12 PM 5/10/2007
Old 05-09-2007, 07:11 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

sorry to interject here, but taking oil from iraq is like taking poison from a cobra...after its done all you got left is a belt.

no natural resources for the world to pay you for anymore? good luck economically.

annnnnyways, i think it would be interesting to see a before and after dyno of bikes running e10/e85 or anything of the sort. just to get an idea.
Old 05-09-2007, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (knockout)

Corn ethanol = the suck
Old 05-09-2007, 07:14 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (knockout)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by knockout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sorry to interject here, but taking oil from iraq is like taking poison from a cobra...after its done all you got left is a belt.

no natural resources for the world to pay you for anymore? good luck economically.

annnnnyways, i think it would be interesting to see a before and after dyno of bikes running e10/e85 or anything of the sort. just to get an idea.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah i mean on paper it works out to make more power but who really knows? i know the turbo K20 and B18s are making some CRAZY power with E85 but they are also running B18s with 8x 1000cc injectors...
Old 05-09-2007, 07:15 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Ross)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Corn ethanol = the suck</TD></TR></TABLE>


what?!
Old 05-09-2007, 08:14 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

sugarcane ethanol = the win

It's a long story, but we're devoting too much land to corn production because of the ethanol craze. And all the demand for corn fuels is driving up the price of corn...which is driving up the price of beef and all byproducts of any animal that is fed on corn.
Old 05-09-2007, 09:12 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Ross)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">sugarcane ethanol = the win

It's a long story, but we're devoting too much land to corn production because of the ethanol craze. And all the demand for corn fuels is driving up the price of corn...which is driving up the price of beef and all byproducts of any animal that is fed on corn.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i see what you mean now. i was talking to my friend today saying that i was thinking about buying a hybrid car. he thought i was crazy. Im really interested in the diesel hybrid cars anyone know who and when they will be coming out?
Old 05-09-2007, 09:24 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i see what you mean now. i was talking to my friend today saying that i was thinking about buying a hybrid car. he thought i was crazy. Im really interested in the diesel hybrid cars anyone know who and when they will be coming out?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hybrids are not all they're made out to be.

The environmental hazards posed by improper disposal of their Ni-MH batteries are great; and the batteries can break down as early as 80K miles.

And, hybrids do better in the city than on the highway. So city-dwellers can really see a difference in fuel costs....but being in the city means you should probably be able to get by without a car, anyway.

Also, simply buying a new car causes massive amounts of energy and materials to be expended. If you're really concerned about the environment, you're better off sticking with what you've got (unless it's a Hummer) rather than fueling demand for more cars.
Old 05-10-2007, 06:37 AM
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Default Re: E85...? (Ross)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Hybrids are not all they're made out to be.

The environmental hazards posed by improper disposal of their Ni-MH batteries are great; and the batteries can break down as early as 80K miles.

And, hybrids do better in the city than on the highway. So city-dwellers can really see a difference in fuel costs....but being in the city means you should probably be able to get by without a car, anyway.

Also, simply buying a new car causes massive amounts of energy and materials to be expended. If you're really concerned about the environment, you're better off sticking with what you've got (unless it's a Hummer) rather than fueling demand for more cars.</TD></TR></TABLE>

i just want something thats good on gas. i hear that people are putting solar panels on the roof and hood and braking 100MPG though i don't know it thats really true
Old 05-10-2007, 05:23 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

If you really want cheap fuel, you can buy an old diesel and with a few minor modifications you can run it on filtered cooking oil, which any Asian restaurant (they generally have pretty clean cooking oil anyway, it's the fry oil at burger joints that needs more work to prepare it) should be happy to have you take off their hands. They're probably paying a disposal company to haul it away anyway, so why would they mind letting you cart it off for free? All you really have to do is make sure the oil is fairly clean and doesn't congiel. In colder climates this can be achieved by using a second smaller fuel tank filled with standard diesel to start the vehicle and get it warmed up before switching to SVO (straight vegetable oil). If you wanted to take that even farther you could make no modifications at all to the vehicle but buy a transesterification system which should set up comfortably in even a humble garage to make true biodiesel fuel.

p.s. I have no ill feelings towards soldiers, I whole heartedly support and appreciate their service, I simply happen to think that the leader of our nation is a half-wit redneck and his reasons for having spent the last several years occupying Iraq are a crock of s**t at best
Old 05-10-2007, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (rol1in0n20s)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by rol1in0n20s &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you really want cheap fuel, you can buy an old diesel and with a few minor modifications you can run it on filtered cooking oil</TD></TR></TABLE>

Biodiesel = the win
Old 05-10-2007, 09:56 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (Ross)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ross &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Biodiesel = the win</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wrote a marketing paper on Biodiesel and found that most research says that its a waste. According to what i found, it takes more energy to make it then you actually get from it. like the electric cars. you burn coal to make electricity to charge batteries so in the end your car is running on coal indirectly. even Hydrogen fuel cells are anything but perfect. fulling hydrogen and oxygen apart requires just as much energy as they make when they burn. problem is, we dont live in a perfect world so efficiency is not at 100% so its even worse. i think off shore wind mills & algae are where the future is heading...

"Hans Gaffron, a German researcher who fled the **** party and came to the University of Chicago in the 1930s. Gaffron observed in 1939 that the algae would for a then-unknown reason sometimes switch from producing oxygen to instead creating hydrogen, but only for a short period of time.

A breakthrough came in 1999 when University of California at Berkeley professor Tasios Melis, along with researchers from the National Renewable Energy Lab, discovered that depriving the algae of sulfur and oxygen would enable it to produce hydrogen for sustained periods of time."
Old 05-12-2007, 02:02 PM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

Originally Posted by 85
[edit] Life cycle impact of E85 on greenhouse gas emissions
Use of E85 results in reductions of greenhouse gas emissions and energy use for each gallon burned, compared to the emissions and energy use for the gasoline it replaces.[1][2]

Using corn based fuel ethanol production, E85 has a significant effect on total fossil fuel / energy usage and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. As process efficiency increases over the coming years, these benefits are expected to continue to improve. A recent study by University of California at Berkeley estimates it cuts greenhouse-gas emissions by 13% over gasoline.[citation needed]

E85 produces less energy per gallon than gasoline, which means fewer miles per gallon. Until the price of E85 drops to 72% the price of gasoline, consumers may not see any savings in fuel costs per mile. But, as noted earlier in this article, the "energy penalty" per gallon of liquid fuel may not be the entire 28% differential in energy content of that gallon of liquid. In other words, a FFV may use the energy content (measured in BTUs) of E85 more efficiently than the energy content in gasoline. For example, if a Ford Taurus FFV with a highway fuel economy of 27 miles per gallon on gasoline gets 23 miles per gallon on E85, that "penalty" per gallon of E85 is only 15%, not 28%. Viewed from the other perspective, 23 miles per gallon on E85 is a "gasoline-equivalent" energy efficiency of 32 miles per gallon (23/0.72), compared to only 27 miles for the same number of BTUs if using gasoline.

Using dry milling process technology (circa 1999) each gallon of E85 burned reduced petroleum usage by an estimated 0.949 gallon (0.949 L/L). Reduced GHG emissions by 23.8%, compared to burning a gallon of gasoline, and reduced life cycle fossil energy consumption by 44.4% compared to gasoline.

On a per-mile-driven basis, using 1999 technology, dry milling process derived E85, reduced petroleum usage by 74.9%, GHG emissions by 18.8%, and total fossil energy consumed by 35%. Wet milling derived E85 with 1999 technology would net reductions of 72.5% in petroleum usage, 13.7% in GHG emissions, and 34.4% in fossil energy used.

Using more recent state of the art (circa 2005) the energy usage figures improve slightly, with an appreciable decrease in GHG emissions. Dry mill current technology reduces petroleum usage by 75.6%, GHG emissions by 25.5% and fossil energy use by 40.7%. Wet mill current technology reduces petroleum usage by 73.7%, GHG by 23.8% and fossil energy by 42.5%.

Using cellulose based processes, the reductions in petroleum, GHG, and fossil energy are expected to reach the following levels in a mature production environment. Cellulose based ethanol production is nearing commercial viability at this time (2006). Woody biomass process (near future technology) petroleum reduction 69.9%, GHG emissions 102.2% (taking GHGs out of the atmosphere) and fossil energy usage 79%. Herbaceous biomass process (near future technology) petroleum usage reduction of 71.4%, GHG emissions 67.6% and fossil energy 70.4%.

Skeptics caution, however, that these potential benefits are balanced, and possibly offset, by a significant cost in the form of farmland. It has been estimated that the land area required to operate a motor vehicle for one year on pure ethanol, 11 acres, could feed 7 people over the same timeframe.[2] The logical consequences of these competing land uses are that widespread use of ethanol would lower food production from existing agricultural land, potentially inflating food prices due to less supply. Alternatively, the agricultural industry could maintain existing levels of food production and create more farmland — through deforestation — upon which to grow crops for energy production. Ironically, this could lead to the acceleration of the greenhouse effect as well as the loss of biodiversity.

It should be pointed out though, that many of these concerns are derived from studies by a single author (Pimentel) which have been rebutted by several reports.[3][4] Pimentel's argument, for example, is based on long-outdated technology, understates the energy costs of refining and transporting petroleum fuels, and neglects to account for the energy value of the byproducts of the ethanol production process, including that of the high protein cattle feed.

Their conclusion is these series of assumptions may not be entirely appropriate. For example, if the use of ethanol is extended to 100% usage to cover today's fuel energy needs, using exclusively corn derived ethanol, the obvious conclusion is that too much farm land will be required for this usage. This is not likely given current events. Likewise corn used in ethanol production does not remove human food crops from the food chain, as the nutrients are retained and reintroduced to the human food chain through high quality livestock feed. [5]

Ethanol can be brewed from any organic source that contains sugar or starch using current technology. This includes other crops besides corn, such as rice, wheat, barley, potatoes, sugar beets, and sugar cane. At the moment the most cost effective crop in the USA is corn. There is however no reason to assume that will continue into the future. Alternate feed stock streams are already coming on line as producers and manufactures realize that their waste can be converted to a product with market value. For example, Coors Brewing Company is producing 1.5 million gallons per year of fuel ethanol from waste beer and is expanding that output an additional 1.5 million gallons per year in the near future.[6] Others have discussed using otherwise waste crops like freeze damaged fruit, over ripe produce like apples and even out of date bakery goods like stale bread and cakes as possible feed stock streams for ethanol plants.

If cellulose becomes a cost effective feed stock for ethanol, it will become economic to use waste products from other processes or discards, such as waste paper from trash, or stalks and stemmage from crops. Certain high-yield plants grown expressly as a source of cellulose may thrive in climates where food and timber crops do not.
This might help shed some light.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

In my opinion, I was running e85 in my evo for about 3 months. Its like running race gas. You can throw tons of boost/timing at it. It loves it.

Its a very good alternative to expensive race gas.
Old 05-13-2007, 10:57 AM
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Default Re: E85...? (85)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 85 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
problem is, we dont live in a perfect world so efficiency is not at 100% so its even worse. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Second Law of Thermodynamics is a bitch, isn't it? Lol

All in all, I think we all do our part by riding motorcycles. While E85 might or might not be good for our mileage and what not, we're still consuming significantly less oil for the same things as others. I know people who commute to school in trucks that get less than 10 MPG. I calculated mine on a recent trip home and I was running just over 50MPG. Theres an immediate f'ing solution.

Keep up the good work by riding your motorcycles instead of cars guys!


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