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Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

 
Old 11-09-2010, 06:31 PM
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Default Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Hey Guys,

after being approached by HPD (Honda Performance Development) at SEMA to assist them with their new CR-Z Racers, we are now also looking into and gauging interest in our Eco-Friendly (that is what the CR-Z is all about isn't it) transmission modifications for the general consumer.

More Torque
From the brief research that I've done, it seems a lot of people aren't too happy with the power that the CR-Z is putting down. Throughout all my years in this industry, usually the first thing that comes to mind when wanting to increase power is to modify the engine; the easiest way, of course, is to go Forced Induction, but not everyone wants to go that route, especially on a brand new car. Then there's the Naturally Aspirated modifications, however, the $:hp ratio is not very attractive at all.

So what other options do we have? Well, performance is all about efficiency, and making use of the power that you have available. Besides engine modifications, there is another modification available, one that makes use of the "Torque Multiplication" principle; that modification is done within your transmission and will not affect your vehicles warranty unlike an engine modification would.

The CR-Z 6spd is currently geared to go 131mph in 5th gear, and a staggering 162mph in 6th gear. Not only is this ridiculous for a street car, the CR-Z doesn't even have enough power to reach these speeds. So what if you could harness the power of "Torque Multiplication", making your new CR-Z both faster and more efficient:

Stock Gearing (Based on 24.44" tire diameter @ 6300rpm. 128lbft):
3rd - 1.303 - 86mph (Shift Point 4417rpm)
4th - 1.054 - 106mph (5122rpm)
5th - 0.854 - 131mph (5115rpm)
6th - 0.689 - 162mph (5100rpm)
Cruising - 70mph @ 2650rpm

Proposed Gearing (24.44" @ 6300rpm. 128lbft):
3rd - 1.450 - 77mph (Shift Point 4916rpm). 11% increase in torque at the wheels, throughout the whole rev range. Equivalent to 142lbft with Stock Gearing
4th - 1.190 - 94mph (5177rpm). 13% increase in torque. 145lbft
5th - 1.000 - 111mph (5311rpm). 17% increase in torque. 150lbft
6th - 0.850 - 131mph (5331rpm). 23% increase in torque. 157lbft
Cruising - 70mph @ 3300rpm

The ratios are not set in stone. They can and will be revised dependant on market demand.

More Traction
Something the stock CR-Z is missing is a limited slip differential. Although you may only be pushing 122hp/128lbft (for the moment!), push your car to its limits and you will start to feel the need for more traction. At present, Plate Type LSD's are available, however, these are more suited for track-only cars (circuit racing) and require constant adjustments and fine-tuning to get the most out of them. For the daily driver, we propose and highly recommend a Helical LSD as they are lower cost, stronger and maintenance free.

Common Questions
Does this increase my power? - Yes & No. Your engine power will remain the same, however, actual torque produced at the wheels will increase. Your transmissions sole purpose is to take the power produced at the flywheel, multiply it and then transfer that to the ground. Without this torque multiplication, your car would simply not move (1st gear actually puts down 1653lbft, not 128lbft)

Will this affect my mpg? - Yes & No. A common misconception is that high rpm = low mileage. We have proven this to be wrong time and time again, as engine rpm is only one of several variables that contribute to your mpg. Engine load plays a bigger role, especially on a daily driver that sees a lot of stop and go action. For the average driver, not only will you experience vastly increased acceleration, your mpg will remain similar as to what it is just now. The only exceptions to this is if you do a lot of freeway driving, or if you enjoy your new found acceleration so much that you can't keep your right foot off the pedal!

How much would this cost? - On a bang-per-buck scale, this is one of the most cost-effective modifications that you could do, and one that you can actually feel and not just hear (giving the illusion you are going faster) like your general bolt-on modifications. Although I can't post definite pricing as this is not a sales thread, it would be within range of the current MFactory Honda FIT products along with a deal on installation (if required). We build transmissions for Honda and various other high-profile race teams; rest assured knowing your Honda transmission is in the best of hands in the industry.

Any questions, please feel free to post. Feedback/Suggestions is highly appreciated.

Thanks!

Last edited by MFactory; 11-09-2010 at 07:09 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:53 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Well, I found this to be interesting anyways.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:09 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

If you build it, they will come.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:21 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Very interesting read, I'm assuming you will make these if there is a high enough demand?
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:06 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

If the interest is there, yes
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:12 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

I have interest...and to must above^^

..The IMA is a god-send with tons of torque, and HP: it is a huge advantage for power and economy. BTW, the entire IMA system weighs in at 79 pounds.
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:46 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Yes, keeping the IMA system is a huge advantage for low down torque, something that the Fit lacks.

Also, hp numbers mean nothing in the real world (unless you are only concerned with top speed runs). Torque is what is responsible for acceleration, and there isn't much on the market that will give you 23% increase in torque for < $1k.
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Old 11-10-2010, 02:54 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Originally Posted by MFactory View Post
Yes, keeping the IMA system is a huge advantage for low down torque, something that the Fit lacks.
It's been a major advantage for the Porsche GT3 RSR Hybrid in the races it's run so far. The car is easily able to keep pace with much more powerful cars out of slow corners thanks to electric power.

I'm intrigued to see GEARING as part of the performance equation here, especially if MFactory is involved.
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Old 11-10-2010, 04:45 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

This would be GREAT option!
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Old 11-11-2010, 09:06 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Originally Posted by mustclime View Post
lol....may I ask 2 things? Why does the fit own the crz in terms of 0-60 if its so tq-less?
Probably because of the gearing, hence the reason for this thread.

I think the CR-Z buyer is going to be someone that's interested in exploring the performance POTENTIAL of a hybrid system, not strip it out. More powerful electric motors. Upgraded storage cells. Software that allows you to interface with and modify the drivetrain programming. It's going to be a different kind of modification than we're used to, probably more like my old R/C race cars than my swapped EK.
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Old 11-11-2010, 10:42 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Originally Posted by 94CivicSi View Post
Probably because of the gearing, hence the reason for this thread.

I think the CR-Z buyer is going to be someone that's interested in exploring the performance POTENTIAL of a hybrid system, not strip it out. More powerful electric motors. Upgraded storage cells. Software that allows you to interface with and modify the drivetrain programming. It's going to be a different kind of modification than we're used to, probably more like my old R/C race cars than my swapped EK.

Mmmm gearing....lets see, the 2524lb fit has....

1st....3.31
2nd....1.87
3rd.....1.30
4th.....0.95
5th...0.73
on a 4.62 fd
sorce....

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...b50ee22645.pdf

the 2644lb crz has

1st.....3.14
2nd.....1.87
3rd......1.30
4th......1.05
5th.......0.85
6th.......0.69

on a 4.11 fd

sorce....

http://www.caranddriver.com/var/ezfl...aeb2e8df48.pdf

the fit has a little better first gear and the same second gear( thats all that matters 0-60)..the crz has a 0.51 lower fd number...thats part of the problem( lol at 4.11 fd being to low of a fd ratio). This could be offset with some slightly smaller tires....bigest thing is imo for the weight from that hybeed stuff, you are getting very little in return for the extra weight. again jmo....

Maybe the thread starter should come out with a 4.62 fd and a speedo conversion box so the crz can run with the MIGHTY FIT!
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:52 AM
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Icon3 Talk to Eibach...

Hey M-Factory, Eibach is looking for an LSD also, check their thread about their CRZ which they are tracking right now.

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Old 11-12-2010, 09:23 AM
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Default Re: Talk to Eibach...

Originally Posted by Blue-Civic-Hybrid View Post
Hey M-Factory, Eibach is looking for an LSD also, check their thread about their CRZ which they are tracking right now.

I just read your post after making my reply in our thread. Ironic! This is exactly what we're after at the moment! Did you guys make the LSD that HPD is using in their CR-Z?
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Old 11-12-2010, 10:55 AM
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Default Re: Talk to Eibach...

Originally Posted by Jackson View Post
I just read your post after making my reply in our thread. Ironic! This is exactly what we're after at the moment! Did you guys make the LSD that HPD is using in their CR-Z?
Nope. I'm assuming one of Hondas suppliers made it.

Having had it out on track, how do you like the proposed gear ratios in this thread?
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:18 AM
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Default Re: Talk to Eibach...

Originally Posted by Aquafina View Post
Nope. I'm assuming one of Hondas suppliers made it.

Having had it out on track, how do you like the proposed gear ratios in this thread?
Anything closer than what's in there now will be better. From 1st to 2nd gear the shifts are not bad but from 2nd to 3rd there is a huge lag and gap in gearing. Do you think the Honda Fit final drive will be compatible with the CR-Z even though it's 6 speed?
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:23 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Nope, shaft lengths will be different. Did you have to go down into 2nd at any point on track?
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Old 11-12-2010, 11:29 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Originally Posted by Aquafina View Post
Nope, shaft lengths will be different. Did you have to go down into 2nd at any point on track?
Yes, there were two hairpins that I used 2nd gear on. I was mostly in 3rd and 4th throughout the track with minimal braking . The gap between 3rd and 4th can be improved but it's not as noticeble as 2nd to 3rd.
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Old 11-15-2010, 03:44 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

If I had a CR-Z in my possession it would not stay stock, but it wouldn't be about all out power, it would be about balance. The transmission is definitely part of the equasion, better gearing and more traction would benefit any other mods.

I'd definitely like to see you guys have something out on the market, I might not have a CR-Z but seeing you guys doing something for those encourages me to check out your products the CR that I do have, my CR-X.
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Old 11-15-2010, 09:48 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

OP, here's my suggestion...

Sell a gear set that doesn't alter the sixth gear's ability to act as an ultra OD gear (granted, 0.850 is still pretty crazy). Keep the revs low for highway cruising, but still allow the car to kick it up in 1-5.

On top of that, I would also look into marketing some crazy high FD ratio near 5 or so.

The direction that I see this car going is one of ultimate utility. Drive it to the track and then drive it home and get 55 MPG the whole way. It's the best of both worlds, but I think you have to remember that many people won't want to break the car's abilities to get 50+ MPG in ECO mode by altering the gear ratios.

Just my two pennies.
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Old 11-15-2010, 10:24 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Yes, over on the CR-Z forum, we also proposed a 3/4/5 option, allowing the user to retain 6th for freeway cruising

Last edited by MFactory; 11-17-2010 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 11-16-2010, 12:30 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Originally Posted by mustclime View Post
Sorry, this is 2010, any car that does 0-60 mph in 9.6 second can not be called sporty imo. Put a fit's fd in the car and it might be kinda sporty. A 1983 VW gti with a 110 hp came to the showroom floor doing 0-60 in 8.3 seconds.....That was 27 years ago.....The gti rabbit was sporty because mustang gt's were doing 0-60 in the high 6 second range. Well, 27 years later, mustangs are faster, gti's are faster.....honda's? not so much. If its gas milage was in the high 40's mpg, then honda would be able to hang their hat on that, Insted, they should eat it.

Like I said, I would be interested in a kit to remove all that last gen hybred stuff.
Listen man can you go and start your own dedicated topic for "CR-X vs. Fit" or something? Or a "Why we should have a kit to remove the IMA and battery from the CR-Z" topic sounds like a good one for you.

MFactory is a valued asset to the Honda community, and this topic supposed to be about their proposed gear upgrades, not some tired CR-Z bashing.

Please stop trashing this topic.

EDIT:

Don't be surprised if you log on soon and find every single one of your off-topic replies gone from this topic.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:26 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Thanks B18C5-EH2. The OT posts are now gone.
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Old 11-17-2010, 12:34 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Thanks for cleaning up the thread, much better to read and comprehend. I hope I did the right thing with the Eibach CRZ and this thread!
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:45 AM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

after playing with gearing in other cars, i can honestly say that if i got a crz this would probably be the first thing i would change.
well second after brakes.
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Old 11-18-2010, 03:32 PM
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Default Re: Gauging Interest: More Torque, More Traction, still Eco-Friendly

Very very nice!
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