Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments.
11-13-2007, 07:35 PM
#1
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Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments.
any rotors will do. i think its a wate of money to pay for name brand rotors like brembo. i just go to my local parts store and get generic chinese made rotors. they will last just as long.
slotted and crossdrilled wont matter either. total waste of money, wont affect your braking.
what will affect your braking is a properly maintained brake system. 3 years is a long time.
so bleeding the air and water out of the brakes is considered routine maintenance. ignoring it and complaining about the quality of your brakes is nonsense. its like not changing your oil and wanting to swap to a b16. air and water DO accumulate inside the brake lines over time and use. ANY fresh fluid is better than old fluid. except DOT 5, which is NOT to be used in our cars. altho DOT 5.1 is ok. but really, any decent DOT 3/4 is ok for the street. regularly flushed, itll work fine in nearly all conditions.
not only is flushing the fluid necessary, but at this age of the car, the calipers probably need to be rebuilt too. what needs to be "rebuilt" on a caliper is the piston and the rubber seal. as the pads wear out and the piston extends further out, it is exposed to the air inside the dust boot of the caliper. which can trap water inside, or brake dust or road crud. in time this exposed surface of the piston will corrode and pit and just get nasty. then when you put new pads in, part of the procedure is to push the piston back in. the previously exposed, and probably corroded, pitted and nasty surface of the piston is now behind the caliper seal and probably not doing the best job possible of sealing now that its not smooth. so its a good idea to inspect your caliper pistons for corrosion. you CAN save the piston by cleaning it off and lapping it with some fine sand paper and just replace the seals and boots. but if the piston is pitted, it needs to be replaced. you can accomplish this rebuild yourself which is kind of a pain the first time, or just go out and buy already rebuilt calipers.
this is important to consider when you think about simply replacing your brakes with a "upgraded" USED brake caliper that may be bigger. but its still a used caliper and will likely have suffered the same result as your old calipers. so no real gain, could even be worse.
anyway, the other critical factor in braking is pads. this is the main factor because pad material determines the level of friction, and overall performance of your brakes. more than even the size of the rotor. rotors are just cast iron no matter what, thats why it doesnt matter what kind of rotor you get, but its the pad material that produces friction to force the wheels and tires to slow the car down. so you should get a good brand of pad as your main consideration. personally i stay away from semi metallic for a street car. try a ceramic pad. axxis ultimates come to mind, but they do dust a bit. just a trade off for a good performing pad. lots of other good pads like hawk HP, or even upper level raybestos are fine. stay away from EBC green. crappy crappy pad. thats all i have to say about that.
lastly, whats commonly said is that "its not the brakes that slow you down, its the tires." well, true to a certain extent and perhaps ULTIMATELY. but theres still a critical amount of time before the tire alone is "ultimately" the only factor in the brakes. that being said, good tires are needed for good braking. crappy tires simply wont have a high enough friction level as a good performance tire and will lock up easier. once a tire locks up, its LESS traction and also unsafe because theres no longer control of the car.
slotted and crossdrilled wont matter either. total waste of money, wont affect your braking.
what will affect your braking is a properly maintained brake system. 3 years is a long time.
so bleeding the air and water out of the brakes is considered routine maintenance. ignoring it and complaining about the quality of your brakes is nonsense. its like not changing your oil and wanting to swap to a b16. air and water DO accumulate inside the brake lines over time and use. ANY fresh fluid is better than old fluid. except DOT 5, which is NOT to be used in our cars. altho DOT 5.1 is ok. but really, any decent DOT 3/4 is ok for the street. regularly flushed, itll work fine in nearly all conditions.
not only is flushing the fluid necessary, but at this age of the car, the calipers probably need to be rebuilt too. what needs to be "rebuilt" on a caliper is the piston and the rubber seal. as the pads wear out and the piston extends further out, it is exposed to the air inside the dust boot of the caliper. which can trap water inside, or brake dust or road crud. in time this exposed surface of the piston will corrode and pit and just get nasty. then when you put new pads in, part of the procedure is to push the piston back in. the previously exposed, and probably corroded, pitted and nasty surface of the piston is now behind the caliper seal and probably not doing the best job possible of sealing now that its not smooth. so its a good idea to inspect your caliper pistons for corrosion. you CAN save the piston by cleaning it off and lapping it with some fine sand paper and just replace the seals and boots. but if the piston is pitted, it needs to be replaced. you can accomplish this rebuild yourself which is kind of a pain the first time, or just go out and buy already rebuilt calipers.
this is important to consider when you think about simply replacing your brakes with a "upgraded" USED brake caliper that may be bigger. but its still a used caliper and will likely have suffered the same result as your old calipers. so no real gain, could even be worse.
anyway, the other critical factor in braking is pads. this is the main factor because pad material determines the level of friction, and overall performance of your brakes. more than even the size of the rotor. rotors are just cast iron no matter what, thats why it doesnt matter what kind of rotor you get, but its the pad material that produces friction to force the wheels and tires to slow the car down. so you should get a good brand of pad as your main consideration. personally i stay away from semi metallic for a street car. try a ceramic pad. axxis ultimates come to mind, but they do dust a bit. just a trade off for a good performing pad. lots of other good pads like hawk HP, or even upper level raybestos are fine. stay away from EBC green. crappy crappy pad. thats all i have to say about that.
lastly, whats commonly said is that "its not the brakes that slow you down, its the tires." well, true to a certain extent and perhaps ULTIMATELY. but theres still a critical amount of time before the tire alone is "ultimately" the only factor in the brakes. that being said, good tires are needed for good braking. crappy tires simply wont have a high enough friction level as a good performance tire and will lock up easier. once a tire locks up, its LESS traction and also unsafe because theres no longer control of the car.
11-13-2007, 07:51 PM
#3
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (Tyson)
Good write up, brake fluid cannot be replaced too often!
Also people, throw it away if there is some remaining fluid in the bottle. Spoils like milk sitting on a shelf after the seal is popped!
Also people, throw it away if there is some remaining fluid in the bottle. Spoils like milk sitting on a shelf after the seal is popped!
11-13-2007, 08:08 PM
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (Runnerdown)
There is a difference in the hardness of the iron used in rotors, depending on the country or manufacturer.
There are quality differences. Harder lasts longer. But for the most part you are right.
There are quality differences. Harder lasts longer. But for the most part you are right.
11-13-2007, 08:30 PM
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (Tyson)
I used elcheapo rotors, NEVER had braking issues on the CRX. In fact the brakes work too well, I am resorting to a less aggressive pad next year.
11-13-2007, 08:48 PM
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (SIred91)
drilled and slotted rotors were made in the early eightys when brakepads used a compound that would release gas this gas on flat rotors would then creat a thin layer in between the rotor and pad hindering breaking to a dangerous level. slots and holes let this gas escape.
cross drilled and sloted rotors actualy do worse the solid rotors. breaking a car is the transfer of energy from the moving car (moving energy) of breaks(heat energy) through contact.
common science. the more surface area the heat can be transfered at once and the more stopping. with a quality casted rotor you can also keep "fading" down just as well as you think slotted and drilled rotors will.
if all else fails look at the most technicly designed race cars today. the methods used in f1 cars are never media based and are strictly to increase performance. squeeze out ever tenth of a second you can. what kind of rotors are they using. solid.
drilled and slotted rotors only benifit would be that of weight. and its really not that much.
cross drilled and sloted rotors actualy do worse the solid rotors. breaking a car is the transfer of energy from the moving car (moving energy) of breaks(heat energy) through contact.
common science. the more surface area the heat can be transfered at once and the more stopping. with a quality casted rotor you can also keep "fading" down just as well as you think slotted and drilled rotors will.
if all else fails look at the most technicly designed race cars today. the methods used in f1 cars are never media based and are strictly to increase performance. squeeze out ever tenth of a second you can. what kind of rotors are they using. solid.
drilled and slotted rotors only benifit would be that of weight. and its really not that much.
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11-13-2007, 09:27 PM
#8
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (Runnerdown)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Runnerdown »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good write up, brake fluid cannot be replaced too often!
Also people, throw it away if there is some remaining fluid in the bottle. Spoils like milk sitting on a shelf after the seal is popped!</TD></TR></TABLE>
i'm surprised i never knew that. good thing i have a million bottles of brake fluid. my dealership used to throw bottles away when they would sell a 'kit' to service department customers.
so, id take all the fluid home and not trash it. i have like 50 big bottles, full, and sealed.
but yeah.... i did used to keep the half empty bottles in the past.
Also people, throw it away if there is some remaining fluid in the bottle. Spoils like milk sitting on a shelf after the seal is popped!</TD></TR></TABLE>
i'm surprised i never knew that. good thing i have a million bottles of brake fluid. my dealership used to throw bottles away when they would sell a 'kit' to service department customers.
so, id take all the fluid home and not trash it. i have like 50 big bottles, full, and sealed.
but yeah.... i did used to keep the half empty bottles in the past.
11-13-2007, 09:34 PM
#10
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (STREETWERKZ)
What is the main difference between DOT3/4/5? Sorry if that's ignorant but the only system I don't know is brakes...
11-13-2007, 10:10 PM
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (RockinthEFhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SIred91 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmm, someone explain how it spoils?</TD></TR></TABLE>
probably absorbs moisture in the air, just like it does in the brake lines.
probably absorbs moisture in the air, just like it does in the brake lines.
11-13-2007, 11:32 PM
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (RockinthEFhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RockinthEFhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What is the main difference between DOT3/4/5? Sorry if that's ignorant but the only system I don't know is brakes...</TD></TR></TABLE>
from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_3
MINIMUM boiling points for these specifications are as follows:
Boiling point ranges Dry boiling point Wet boiling point
DOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C ( 600)
most fluids well EXCEED the minimums.
btw, DOT 5 is not compatible with ABS cars, and generally not recommended. thats why they made 5.1, which is compatible.
from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOT_3
MINIMUM boiling points for these specifications are as follows:
Boiling point ranges Dry boiling point Wet boiling point
DOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C ( 600)
most fluids well EXCEED the minimums.
btw, DOT 5 is not compatible with ABS cars, and generally not recommended. thats why they made 5.1, which is compatible.
11-13-2007, 11:41 PM
#13
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (SIred91)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SIred91 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hmm, someone explain how it spoils?</TD></TR></TABLE>
brake fluid naturally absorbs water, even in air. so it will absorb the moisture in the air inside the bottle. generally not THAT big an issue, but i wouldnt keep it if i really cared. you can see the difference in dry and wet boiling points above.
the REASON brake fluid absorbs water, instead of repels water, is so that water doesnt clump together, like it would in oil. water has a boiling temp of 100*C, lower than brake fluid. you dont want to boil the water or it will turn to vapor, which then will compress... plus, a clump of water is going to corrode the metal lines and caliper/piston faster in a local spot. so it spreads any water molecules throughout the whole volume of brake fluid. and thats why the addition of water in the fluid lowers the boiling temp.
good thing the brake system is supposed to be completely sealed.... but water can get in through the reservoir, caliper seals, and even through the rubber lines. so it really needs to be flushed and replaced to keep the system in top shape.
Modified by Tyson at 12:51 AM 11/14/2007
brake fluid naturally absorbs water, even in air. so it will absorb the moisture in the air inside the bottle. generally not THAT big an issue, but i wouldnt keep it if i really cared. you can see the difference in dry and wet boiling points above.
the REASON brake fluid absorbs water, instead of repels water, is so that water doesnt clump together, like it would in oil. water has a boiling temp of 100*C, lower than brake fluid. you dont want to boil the water or it will turn to vapor, which then will compress... plus, a clump of water is going to corrode the metal lines and caliper/piston faster in a local spot. so it spreads any water molecules throughout the whole volume of brake fluid. and thats why the addition of water in the fluid lowers the boiling temp.
good thing the brake system is supposed to be completely sealed.... but water can get in through the reservoir, caliper seals, and even through the rubber lines. so it really needs to be flushed and replaced to keep the system in top shape.
Modified by Tyson at 12:51 AM 11/14/2007
11-13-2007, 11:49 PM
#14
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (Tyson)
I just did a rear disk brake conversion on my car yesterday and what I do is rub vaseline on all the rubber seals it softens them and gives them more life.
11-14-2007, 09:34 AM
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Re:
Tyson-
Good information as usual. I only run blank rotors as my track pads chew up rotors anyways. I hate seeing people say they've upgraded to slotted rotors.
A known tip for those who track and a good one for those who want to get into it, I switch between ATE Super Blue and ATE Typ 200 when flushing my braking system. One is blue, one is gold, and both have the same boiling temps and price! This way I know I have a complete, fresh flush. It's great if you're OCD and **** retentive like I am.
Good information as usual. I only run blank rotors as my track pads chew up rotors anyways. I hate seeing people say they've upgraded to slotted rotors.
A known tip for those who track and a good one for those who want to get into it, I switch between ATE Super Blue and ATE Typ 200 when flushing my braking system. One is blue, one is gold, and both have the same boiling temps and price! This way I know I have a complete, fresh flush. It's great if you're OCD and **** retentive like I am.
11-14-2007, 09:44 AM
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Re: Re: (nickrps)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nickrps »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">A known tip for those who track and a good one for those who want to get into it, I switch between ATE Super Blue and ATE Typ 200 when flushing my braking system. One is blue, one is gold, and both have the same boiling temps and price! This way I know I have a complete, fresh flush. It's great if you're OCD and **** retentive like I am. </TD></TR></TABLE>
lol, i noticed that too when i flushed my system with super blue.
PDQ motorsports
</TD></TR></TABLE>lol, i noticed that too when i flushed my system with super blue.
PDQ motorsports
11-14-2007, 09:47 AM
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Re: (90efhatch)
Always had issues with cheap rotors, brother is an acura tech told me never to go with anything other than oem brake parts. I guess brake rotor warpage and squeal go hand and hand with cheap parts. Performance parts not sure never needed them.
11-14-2007, 09:51 AM
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Re: (jwbnavy)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jwbnavy »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Always had issues with cheap rotors, brother is an acura tech told me never to go with anything other than oem brake parts. I guess brake rotor warpage and squeal go hand and hand with cheap parts. Performance parts not sure never needed them.</TD></TR></TABLE>
warpage and squeel has mostly nothing to do with rotors quality.
squeel is all about the type of pad.
warpage occurs when you improperly bed the brake pads, and/or dont cool the brakes down and leave uneven deposits in the rotors. quite frankly, its uneven braking lining material on the rotor that is the reason for "warped rotors", not physical warping of the rotor itself.
when the car SHAKES from "warped rotors", then the problem is two fold. not only do the rotors need to be addressed, but the whole suspension, since there is obvious play in the suspension. likely bushings (specifically steering rack end bushing) and balljoints need attention. a warped rotor ALONE will only cause a mild pulsing with a tight suspension. replacing just the rotor is only a bandaid and then becomes a "chicken or the egg" situation where the play in the suspension actually causes, or greatly increases the chance of "warped rotors".
warpage and squeel has mostly nothing to do with rotors quality.
squeel is all about the type of pad.
warpage occurs when you improperly bed the brake pads, and/or dont cool the brakes down and leave uneven deposits in the rotors. quite frankly, its uneven braking lining material on the rotor that is the reason for "warped rotors", not physical warping of the rotor itself.
when the car SHAKES from "warped rotors", then the problem is two fold. not only do the rotors need to be addressed, but the whole suspension, since there is obvious play in the suspension. likely bushings (specifically steering rack end bushing) and balljoints need attention. a warped rotor ALONE will only cause a mild pulsing with a tight suspension. replacing just the rotor is only a bandaid and then becomes a "chicken or the egg" situation where the play in the suspension actually causes, or greatly increases the chance of "warped rotors".
11-14-2007, 10:00 AM
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Re: (jwbnavy)
DOT 3 fluids are based on glycol and glycol esters. DOT 4 fluids are much like DOT 3 fluids, but also contain borate esters. There is another rating called DOT 5.1 that consists of borate esters, in witch. DOT 3 and 4 retain water. thats why brakelines rot from the inside outward, and DOT 5 are more used on race cars because of its high dry boiling point.
and as allways, never mix fluids or change DOT fluid due to system setups.
and as allways, never mix fluids or change DOT fluid due to system setups.
11-14-2007, 11:19 AM
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Re: Tyson's thoughts on brakes. leave your comments. (Tyson)
Great thread, As I just came across my need for some break repair. Your comment on calipers I would love to rebuild mine but time is one thing that I am truly lacking. So a rebuilt one is what I am looking for. Now does the "You get what you pay for" philosophy apply to the calipers? I have seen Akebono ones for mid $80 a piece and then some other brands as low as $40 a piece and then NHT's for $140 a pair. Who has tried what and what is good or bad? Is there a "great" oem replacement?