1999 Civic Si

I have a 1999 Honda Civic Si with the original b16a2. A little back story on the car, December of 2015 the car was running fine, but the timing belt started to make some noise and have excessive slack in it, so I parked it for a couple months and then took it to a buddies garage and began tearing down the top end for a rebuild.

A few mods on the car:
-a/c delete (used oem parts)
-p./s delete (manual rack)
Engine (existing):
-12:1 compression forged pistons
-forged eagle h beam rods

Cylinder head:
-Ferrea 6000 valves (new)
-3 angle valve job (new)
-hot tanked (new)
-decked (new)
-supertech valve seals (new)
-all other gaskets/seals brand new OEM Honda
-skunk2 tuner 2 cams (degreed) (new, use to have pro 2s)
-skunk2 LMAs (new)
-BC dual valve springs with titanium retainers
-skunk2 ultra street intake
-68mm skunk2 throttle body
-gates racing timing belt & tensioner (new)
-AEM e85 320 fuel pump (new)

After we got everything back together, timing set & cams degreed we went to start it and had a massive voltage drop to 3v while cranking and the ground wires were glowing and smoking. I had it towed back to my place and picked up a remanufactured starter and put it in and the voltage drop is down to around 8-8.5v while cranking and the grounds still get warm.

Timing was double checked and is spot on by the book, compression is 230 across the board.

So far I have replaced all three main grounds with BNIB OEM Honda, OEM Honda power wire to the starter/fuse box, cleaned all ground mounting points and have perfect resistance free grounds, I removed the engine harness and checked every single wire for continuity and resistance & I found nothing. Battery bench tested good, main relay bench tested good & visually looks fine, the remanufactured & oem starter both bench tested good, I have tried two different distributors, both bench test good, tried two different ecus (p2t & s300 v1) made no difference, stock injectors currently. I get weak orange spark when the voltage drops, I have fuel & fuel pressure. The ignition switch visually looks good & is delivering the proper voltage when the key is in the on position.

I am honestly at a loss here & could really use some help, I have researched 15+ hours on Honda-tech and other websites looking for similar issues & haven't had much luck.

Former User

Sounds like you did not install all electrical connections correctly.

Post pics showing the ground wires that got hot, as well as electrical connections to the battery and starter.

1999 Civic Si

The ground wire from the battery to chassis & the transmission to chassis are the grounds that were getting really hot on the old starter, now they just get warm after replacing them with new OEM ones & the remanufactured starter.

Former User

Sounds like the starter motor is shorting to ground.

At what exact locations did the G1 (battery) and G3 (transmission) ground wires seem to get their hottest?

1999 Civic Si

I thought that could be a possibility with the starter, but I bypassed the ignition switch and gave it 12v from the battery and it turned over the engine freely with no voltage drop, both with the ignition off & with the ignition in the on position. Unless there is something I am missing.

Do you mean where along the length of the wire was it getting hot? If so the previous grounds (prior to the new OEM ones), it was the terminal that connected to the chassis, the rest of the wire got hot as well, but wasn't glowing. The new ground wires get warm fairly evenly over the entire wire (terminal included).

Former User

Please describe this test in more detail. What exactly did you do? The starter cranked the engine and there was no voltage or ground wire heating?

1999 Civic Si

Sorry that wasn't a very detailed description, here is the link to the test I did. The voltage didn't drop below 10.5v doing the first part of the test & the grounds didn't feel or appear to be getting warm. Of course it is hot out today and sunny so it is hard to tell unless they get really hot. I tried the first part of the test a few times for 15-20 seconds each time just to be sure.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/tech-m...mp%5D-2961164/

Former User

Did you do fcm's test with the starter removed and on the bench or installed in the car?

The starter basically consists of two electrical components - the solenoid and the motor. Only the solenoid is controlled by the ignition switch.

1999 Civic Si

I took the starter off and to a parts store and had it tested there, but I personally have not removed it and tested it myself.

Former User

Are you saying that the starter test you mentioned earlier was NOT done with the starter installed in the car and therefore was different from fcm's test shown in the thread you linked?

1999 Civic Si

Sorry I misunderstood your previous post, a couple weekends ago I removed the starter and took it to a parts store & had it tested (tested good), earlier today I did fcms test that I posted a link to, I performed that test with the starter installed on the car.

Although I am thinking I should go back outside and redo fcms test to make sure the grounds weren't getting warm/hot and comfirm 100% that the voltage didn't dip below 10.5v, I am beginning to second guess myself.

EDIT:
I redid fcms test and the ground wire from the transmission to chassis started to get warm after about 15 seconds or so, but the voltage didn't drop below 10.5v. I didn't notice a change on the battery to chassis ground.

mk378

Where are you measuring the voltage? 9.0 volts or higher, measured at the battery posts, is considered passing. That is mostly a test of the battery though.

Are the wires getting warm from a few seconds of cranking for a normal start, or are you cranking for extended times? You are trying to start a high compression engine with stock wires. Some heating up may be unavoidable. I suggest running a heavier wire direct from battery (-) to the transmission, then from there to the frame. The frame ground does not have to handle the heavy starter current like the engine ground does.

1999 Civic Si

I measure voltage at the battery, but I have also measured voltage at other areas during my testing, I get a voltage drop over the entire electrical system when I use the ignition to try and start the car.

The wires get warm because I crank for 15-20 seconds at a time, with some cool down time inbetween, the car doesn't even try to start even with a little starting fluid in the intake. The car would fire up in 5 seconds or so prior to tearing it apart, didn't struggle at all to start.

I have also tried running some 2 gauge jumper cables to the locations you mentioned to use as grounds and it doesn't make a difference.

chrysler kid

Your battery looks to be about 3 years old, you should have that tested as a precaution. It should put out atleast 450 cold cranking amps.

Your ground cables look good. I would just sand off some paint under the connection to the frame rail from the trans.

1999 Civic Si

Battery is actually 4 years old & it has been tested and it is good. I have also tried other known good batteries and nothing has changed.

Paint, rust, grease, etc... has already been removed & cleaned for the ground cables.

mk378

Does it seem to crank at a good speed?

This is probably not the reason why it is not starting. You should do the usual cranks but won't start troubleshooting drill.

1999 Civic Si

It turns over really fast & smooth until the voltage dips & then the obviously it slows down. I have already done a lot of troubleshooting, checking & testing. I have been trying to figure this out for nearly two months, I finally gave in & posted on here.

The voltage dip is what kills my spark & makes it weak. I have even put 12v straight to the distributor power wire, but the voltage keeps dropping and slowing the starter down.

But I have no problem going back over the no start troubleshooting.

mk378

Does it seem to crank at a good speed?

This is probably not the reason why it is not starting. You should do the usual cranks but won't start troubleshooting drill. starting with things that you have worked near like the cam timing and the firing order. Set adjustable cams to zero for the initial tryout before tuning.

mk378

Check firing order. Make sure distributor is not engaged 180 degrees out of time (it is possible to do that if the drive dog is worn enough). Take all the spark plugs out so there is zero compression. Ground the three spark plug wires that you are not testing (never ever let this system fire into an open circuit, the coil is prone to burn out). Test for spark with it spinning at full speed.

1999 Civic Si

Firing order has been checked three times, timing is spot on, the cams are set at 0 degree exhaust & +1 intake. I can't set them back to zero, one I don't have the skill or knowledge on degreeing cams properly & I gave the tool back to the guy I borrowed it from.

Even with the work that was done after tearing it apart, I don't see how any of this would cause the voltage to dip from 10.5v to 8.5v.

The distributor isn't 180 out, I have checked that many times with two different distributors. I have also used a spark tester to check for spark, I have nobody to help anymore so everything I am doing is solo.

mk378

If an engine is badly out of time it can "pop back" i.e. the spark fires so early that the combustion pushes the piston back down during the compression stroke which puts a reverse from normal torque on the crank. This causes a big strain on the starter. However that syndrome generates "trying to start" noises and likely backfiring.

1999 Civic Si

It hasn't backfired at all, only thing you hear is each cylinder building compression out of the header, it just thumps away on each compression stroke.

chrysler kid

How does the alternator connection look

1999 Civic Si

Pretty good, I pulled both connections and cleaned them up as well.

I have even unhooked the alternator and it doesn't make a difference either.

I should also add that if I pull the fuse for the main relay (also kills the power to the ecu) the voltage doesn't drop, it will freely turn the engine over.

mk378

A +1 isn't going to change much, so you can leave the settings the way they are.

TDC the crank and cams then take the distributor cap off and confirm the rotor points at wire #1.

Are you getting strong white sparks or yellow ones? If you only get yellow sparks the coil is probably shot.