CSFD7

I am new to the Honda world and need some help. I have a 1994 Honda Civic CX with the D15b8 motor and manual transmission. This vehicle is all stock with the exceptions of the Distributor, plugs, timing belt and MAP. I purchased this vehicle as a daily commuter for a 92 mile round trip commute from my house to work on a daily basis. Once purchased I had to replace transmission due to failing bearings. While I was waiting on the transmission I removed the head and cleaned up the valves, entire head, Intake manifold, throttle body, and everything between. I hand lapped the valves and checked for proper seal, I replaced all seals for the valves and guage the head to check for warpage. I used all new gaskets when putting this back together and checked all mil spacings. Everything was up to specs. Once the head was back on and tranny was installed, I replaced the distributor, plugs and other items that I listed above as well as corrected valve lash. I set timing according to specs and after 200 miles it was off time again. This vehicle has always ran rough and smoked a whitish grey smoke from the tail pipe as well as blowing a light spray of black carbon liquid stuff from muffler. I removed the timing belt and put crank where it was supposed to be and put cam where it was supposed to be and made sure distributor was pointing to number 1. I set tenting on the belt as stated in the forums and tech books. I looped the service plug and fired it up. The idle is highish, around 800-1100 with a rough idle and the timing is way off again. I turned it off, turned the crankshaft to where the tdc mark is supposed to be then checked position of the number one plug on distributor and cranked it back up to find it out of time again. When I say out of time I mean it doesn't even come close to the tdc or red mark btdc. Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

JRCivic1

Mechanical and distributor timing are two different things. Setting the mechanical timing requires the crankshaft to be positioned so that the timing gear detent groove/line points toward the arrow/'V"/triangle that is cast into the oil pump housing (or if you keep the lower cover and crank pulley in place, align the single WHITE mark on the crank pulley to the timing "V" on the cover) AND turn the camshaft so that the two horizontal lines found on the cam gear at the 3 and 9 o'clock positions when the "UP" marking is facing the sky are PARALLEL to the top of the cylinder head (aligning with the "<>" found on the inner timing cover behind the cam gear), and placing the timing belt over all components... leaving the tensioner pulley bolt loose 1/2 turn, rotate the crank pulley counter clockwise so that the cam gear moves 3 teeth down from horizontal, and while holding the crank pulley still, torque the tensioner pulley bolt to spec.

To check distributor timing, jump the service connector inside the car near the ECU, place your tach signal pick-up on the #1 (closest to the cam gear) spark plug wire and your positive and negative clips on the battery. If your timing light is a fixed one... you will be shooting at the crank pulley and looking for the RED 16' mark on the crank pulley to align with the timing pointer. If there is no paint on it, it will be the MIDDLE mark of the three marks close together. If you have a more modern timing light with an advance dial or +/- buttons... set the timing light @ 16' and look for the WHITE (TDC) mark on the crank pulley. It is the single mark all by itself... about an inch away from the three marks grouped together on the crank pulley edge.

Now, once in proper mechanical time, if the car doesn't run right or the distributor timing seems really off still, double check your firing order arrangement of the plug wires.

CSFD7

Thanks for the reply. I redid everything so that the arrow and indent on crankshaft pulley line up and the camshaft pulley is in proper position as you stated. All wires are where they should be as proper firing order. Everything looks as it should until I crank the car up then it immediately shows both red and white marks way off from where they were before. I bought the Innova 3568 Timing Light in hopes that I would get accurate readings. I usually keep it zeroed out and try to match the red mark up with the "gun sight" on the block. Like I said, it is all fine and dandy until I crank the car then it's way off......I'm at a loss. I can't find anything on the Internet about this sort of issue. I have Haynes, Chilton and Service Tech Book and can't find anything that I'm doing wrong.

BryanM.

iTrader: (1)

I'm wondering if you're using the wrong timing belt. Might want to re-check part numbers.

CSFD7

Part number on timing belt matches that of the D15b8 specs.

TomCat39

Once your mechanical timing is set, which it sounds you might have finally done correctly after a poster instructed you about the TDC mark on the crank gear and the TDC marks on the cam gear, you have to get the car up to full operating temperature before you can set ignition timing.

When you first start the car, the idle should rise to about 1200-1500 RPM and as the engine warms up the idle drops down.

Once the fan kicks on a couple of times, you can then use the timing light with the inductor on the spark plug #1 wire, with the service connector jumped. Your Check Engine Light should come on solid if the service connector is jumped correctly.

The thing I also found is the inductor is very sensitive so it will pick up interference from wire #2 and not match up to the marks on the pulley. I found if I put the inductor slightly over the boot of the #1 wire it will give me good readings and I can then adjust the distributor to the middle mark in the timing sights on the outside lower timing belt cover.

CSFD7

Last night after I set mechanical I started the car and it sat idle for 15 minutes and was at operating temp when I checked the ignition timing. I can turn the distributor all the way and still not get where it needs to be. The idle is rough, it has a slight pop out of the exhaust pipe, blows a slight spray of black liquid and has a whitish grey smoke. The smoke just smells like that of a new car when condensation occurs at startup.

TomCat39

When doing the timing light, play with the inductor you put on wire one.

I am willing to bet it's not getting the signal. When it does, suddenly the lines appear in the light. The inductor has to sit just right I've found.

Can be a real pain in the ***.

CSFD7

Thanks Tomcat, I'll check that tonight when I get home. This was supposed to be saving me money from gas but I have over 4k including car in it now. 2k in just repairs and stuff to throw at it....the whole thing is a pain in the ***.

CSFD7

Trying to reprogram myself.......back to basics.......what would cause the car to idle rough, have the smoke and liquid from tailpipe as mentioned above, not hold timing and pop from exhaust? I did a check list before but could have left something out.
IACV- Cleaned and checked with Multimeter
VALVES- Cleaned seated and tested for leaks
TPS- Cleaned and tested with Multimeter
MAP- Changed
PLUGS- NGK v power as suggested by Honda
DISTRIBUTOR- New
COOLANT- Changed and Bled
FUSES- All checked and good
EXHAUST- Maybe small leak near Cat and no stock muffler, some kind of resonator looking pipe instead.
O2 SENSOR- Need to check
HEAD- Removed, cleaned and checked for wapage.
THROTTLE BODY- Cleaned and seems to be in working order.
VACUUM SYSTEM- Checked for leaks with Carb Cleaner then hooked to a vacuum gauge and stayed steady at 22.
BLOCK TEST- Negative results, stayed blue.

​​​​​​​Can yall think of anything further besides what Tomcat mentioned above?

TomCat39

One thing did occur to me. If your valve lash is too tight, I believe it can prevent the valves from sealing properly which in turn could cause miss firing.

Valve lash is set with the engine stone cold and if I remember right off the top of my head, intake is .007"-.009" (I use .008") and exhaust is .009"-.011" (I use .010").

CSFD7

I set the lash at 8 and 10 but I will pull the cover off and double check it to be sure. It does make sense to me though. I'll get to it this weekend and let you know what I find out.

TomCat39

Best of luck.

Another thing commonly stated hear concerning these old Honda's is spark quality.

Using a cheap tool calibrated for High Energy Ignition (HEI) spark tester. You can test your ignition components.

A bright White/Blue spark is healthy. No spark or an dull orange spark is bad.

Mine looks just like this one:
https://www.amazon.ca/GearWrench-Ign.../dp/B0002STSBC

Also in your list I did not see new spark plug wires.

Honda's use a carbon wire that deteriorates over time. You might want to measure resistance on the wires and make sure they are in spec.

Another way I found to locate the wires were getting noisy was my AM radio would whine with engine RPM. New wires and the whine vanished.

Trying to run through the things that can cause poor running conditions.

Also, why did you replace the map sensor? I haven't had a bad one to date. I would goto the salvage yard and find another OEM used one if your's isn't OEM. I'm very leery on non OEM for various sensors the car needs to run, but I also don't like the NEW OEM pricing either.

And last thing, have you seen your CEL light come on? When you first put the key to the on (II) position, the CEL should light up for about 2 seconds as the fuel pump primes and then go off. If you don't ever see your CEL light, there might be a code being thrown that previous owner pulled the bulb to hide.

CSFD7

I haven't replaced the wires yet. I'll definitely check out the plug tester and the wire resistance. I replaced the MAP just to eliminate that as an issue and it's OEM.

CSFD7

And the CEL light does work just not throwing codes yet.

CSFD7

Ok Tomcat, the ohms on the plug wires ranged from at low as 7.1 ohms on the shortest (#4) and went up to 13 ohms on the longest (#1). The valve lash was all correct with slight drag at intake .008 and exhaust .010. I pulled the throttle body again to double check the flapper and make sure that it's not sticking anywhere or gummed up. I'll try to get it back together tomorrow and let you know how the timing light goes.

mk378

My Civic will blow some soot out of the tailpipe if it sits idling for a long time. I think that is normal.

Like the other guy said, valves too tight will cause a rough idle. If you're not sure about adjusting properly, go for a little looser and see if that improves the running. Too lose will just make a clattering noise.

Warm up the engine, the CEL must stay off while it is running.
Then turn the key off, put in the test jumper, and re-start the engine.
The CEL must now be on steady. This is important. If it is not on steady the ECU is not running in test mode, and it will vary the timing all over the place as part of the "normal run" mode. If it blinks out codes you need to take care of the codes before trying to adjust timing.
Once in test mode, use your timing light.

It is very remotely possible the camshaft itself is not in sync with the cam gear. TDC the crank and cam gear marks and remove distributor. The slot in the end of the cam that drives the distributor should be straight up and down, that is it will be perpendicular to the top of the head. (It's not perpendicular to the ground, since the whole engine is tilted forward when mounted in the car).

Replacing a bunch of parts that are not bad and usually last the life of the car seems like a bad idea.

CSFD7

CEL works properly with no flashing codes and steady on when looped. Camshaft alignment good with the slits moving vertical while at TDC. I will try to reinstall TB tonight and let yall know what I find. MK, what will be hurt, besides my bank account and/or marriage, by replacing parts that may not be bad? I still have the old MAP....should I throw it back in? Thanks guys for the help.

TomCat39

Your wire resistance seems really darn low. FSM states up to 25K Ohm resistance, if it's higher than 25,000 ohm replace. 7-13 ohm just seems super low. What brand wires? They may not be carbon wires and are allowing ungodly amounts of EMI noise. The only brand of metal core wires that I know of that are made with high noise systems is Aurora Ignition Wires here in BC Canada. No one else that I am aware of makes a metal core wire that dyno tuners prefer over the carbon core.

So once spark is eliminated as the issue, the next possibility is fuel. If an injector is partially clogged, you will get less fuel as well as the spray pattern will be compromised.

This can cause rough idling.

Usually you do the fuel pressure checks first, then you check for injector impulses and if all that checks out, then you check individual injector sprays and clean the injectors.

After fuel is ruled out, that really only leaves compression. You've redone the head so that only leaves rings.

I didn't see compression numbers. If one cylinder is really low and bordering on the max spec of out of range, it would misfire off and on causing rough idle.

I will post a picture of what I had to do with my timing light inductor on the wire to get it to give me the proper strobing to set timing. I will edit this post a little later today with the picture.

CSFD7

Compression was about 124-125 on #'s 123 and #4 was about 132. Fuel injectors have good pulse and I cleaned them out with a pressurized tool when head was off, the spray pattern and pulse was good then too. I haven't checked the pressure on pump though, I can do that this weekend also.

CSFD7

You and my car have something in common your both from Canada! The wires have writing as follows, 7mm hi-temp radio suppression cable, I didn't see any brand. Good or bad?

TomCat39

No brand name on them, sounds like some cheap knock off wires.

I would see about sourcing some NGK, Accel or Aurora Ignition wires. I have had good results with those 3. NGK and Accel are both Carbon core and need to be changed every 2-4 years depending. The Aurora wires are metal core and never need to be replaced and come with a limited lifetime warranty. They will even replace a single wire if it becomes faulty.

CSFD7

Awesome, I'll get some today!

TomCat39

Was going to add the pics to one of my previous posts but this thread is pretty active so here is my Y8 Accel wires I haven't used as of yet. I ran the B7 wires just like these for about 4 years before the noise was bad enough to start causing some idling stutters periodically.

I also took pics of how I place my inductor to get good readings. I just barely grab a little bit of the boot into the inductor. That seemed to be the trick.

CSFD7

Ok, I wasn't able to do much yesterday but I did get some values and have questions on these values.

I tested the old plug wires again and they registered as follows:

#1- 13.6k
#2- 9.2k
#3- 8.8k
#4- 6.3k

I did notice fluctuation in values when tapping the wire #1 and #3.

I then bought some new MAG wires and they register as follows:

#1- 11.7k
#2- 10.7k
#3- 8.0k
#4- 6.6k

I don't see much difference in the two values and they are all under what Honda specs wants to change them. What do yall think?