PIMENTEL

i have been debating with myself for the last month or so on whether or not i should get an engine swap
i only want a type r engine unless i find a really good price on a b18c....
i keep thinking it will cost somewhere close to 5grand if i do the swap myself. including replacing old parts and troubleshooting...obd2 to obd1

$5,000!!!!!! ???????
everytime i get into either one of my friend's 5th gen hatchbacks (h22 and built b18c) i practically nut myself

i keep thinking is 5grand really worth it?
i kinda want to buy a bike instead, but i cant have both (insurance) and i really dont wanna sell my 95 si. it's so clean

****please someone tell me a b18c5 is worth it and that i won't be disapointed
just the fact that i will be spending all that money to gain like 70 horses and lsd makes me think i might be retarted

nos is so much cheaper

shawnhayes

Worth every dime, and moving up to a newer motor will give you "longer" life on the car.

Shawn

jonas

[sarcasm]dont get an ITR motor.. according to the ITR guys on this board, all b18c5 hybrids are stolen[/sarcasm]

acuracing

Haha. You're telling me.

I haven't gotten to drive my car much (due to me converting it to OBD-II...it's been a long ride but will pay off soon enough) and I know it has great potential.

cxSOHChatch

stolen???? do they really think like that?

hipnotize

**** it buy a bike

Pat McGroin

statistically it will be a bad idea to buy a bike, most are crashed within the first 6 months. of course the b18c5 is a good motor, theres people on this board that put it in their hatches and are hitting 13's with astock motor.

jonas

yep

B18C5-EH2

It's worth every last penny.

But the swap for $4,800.00 from:


http://www.hondamotorsonline.com

And then get to work. I have had 2 different hatches, 1992 Si and 1992 CX both with the same B18C5 swap in them and I would not trade my set-up for anything. Not even B20/VTEC, boosted B-Series, nothing.

You cannot beat the stock reliability and excellent power output of the B18C5 swap. If you can afford it, it is the best choice IMO.

175whp and 123ft/lbs. of torque.

What mods?

AEM CAI for 99 Civic Si
Tanabe RD exhaust for 1992 Civic hatch
P28 re-chipped ECU from H-T's own user kenji
Untuned Skunk2 camgears set at +2, -1 (could have lost power there, don't know!)

While my car is more for cornering and auto-X, I have ran it at the dragstrip and had good results IMO.

In my full interior'd 1992 Si weighing in at 2289lbs the car ran 13.9@100.97mph on street tires.

In my 1992 CX stripped weighing in at 2040lbs. the car ran 13.3 on baby M/T slicks. The only difference in my set-up was weight and the addition of an ATS 4.929 final drive, but that actually hurt my top-end on the 1/4 mile due to my tiny-*** short slicks.

On street tires all I could get was a 14.0@102mph because the track wasn't the same as my old 13.9 in my 1992 Si and the elevation SUCKS!

The 13.3 was at 1100ft. above sea level, so I'm heading down to the better track here in GA to bust high 12's on a totally stock B18C5!

Also, keep in mind that my car is really more for auto-X and cornering. With the ITR tranny with LSD and a rock-solid motor, I can drive the **** out of the car with no worries. I can take it to a track and rev to 9000rpms all day.

I'm going to find another post where I compared building other motors to buying a B18C5 swap...




[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 12:37 PM 6/8/2002]

B18C5-EH2

Here's an old post from me:

I've said this at least 50 times on this MB, but I'm sure those posts are long gone now:
I have owned all 3 of the common VTEC swaps in the exact same type of car.

1999 B16A2 from Civic Si coupe. It's in my girl's 1992 Si hatchback. Dynoed 143whp, 102ft/lbs. torque. Car feels great, but cannot compare to the other motor set-ups that I had in my 1992 Si hatchback.

1995 B18C1 from Integra GS-R. Had it in my 1992 Si hatch and it would romp her car all day long from any stop, roll, corner exit, etc. Dynoed 150whp and 122ft/lbs. of torque. True the gearing is a little more spaced than the B16A, but it doesn't matter because these motors have a BROAD powerband that compliments the taller gearing. This car busted 14.7 in full street trim even on shitty 16'' wheels/tires.

1998 USDM B18C5 from ITR. Had this after the B18C1 in the same 1992 Si hatch and it now resides in my 1992 CX hatch. This motor set-up demolishes my old set-up and most certainly rapes and pillages the B16A2, but then again it should. This dynoed 175whp and 123ft/lbs. of torque and busted 13.9@100.97mph in full street trim on street tirs in my Si hatch and ran 13.3@99mph on 20'' baby slicks in my CX hatch in horrible elevation and heat.

Cars being equal, the B18C1 was the overall best value though IMO. This is all relative on pricing though, so in my case my B18C5 didn't cost me a penny more than my GS-R swap because I got a killer deal from the ITR's orig. owner after he totalled it and bought it back from insurance.

Each motor is bad-***, and none of them feel slow. The B16A2 definately has to revved to **** just to get any power out of it, while the B18C1 has much more power down low than the B16A2 and even more down low than the B18C5.

B18C5-EH2

Another:

Seriously though, when deciding on a motor, you need to really sit and consider what your price cieling is.

Here's a few examples of the going rate for the various motor swaps in terms of COMPLETE swaps. A complete swap includes:

Engine, Tranny, ECU, Engine Harness, All hoses uncut, shift linkage, all mounts, exhaust manifold w/cat and 02 sensors, axles, and intermediate shaft.

I know of a few places that sell these such swaps and one of them in Import Auto Salvage. 1-800-962-8922. Their pricing is a little high compared to some, but the thoroughness of the swap is unmateched, and their prices usually go like this:

Del Sol VTEC B16A3: $2,300-$2,900
99-00 Civic Si B16A2: $3,600-$3,900
1994-up Integra GS-R: $3,200-$4,000
B18C5 from 1997-2001 ITR: $5,200-$6,500

Of course mileage is the biggest determinant of price,and I am just going from memory, so you'll need to call them before you go quoting me, because I do NOT work there nor do I represent the company here.

Another source for a swap that I hear nothing but good from is Honda Motors Online.


http://www.hondamotorsonline.com

They advertise COMPLETE USDM and even JDM swaps because they buy whole front clips. The only thing you'll need for the swap that they can't supply is a perfect-fitting engine harness if you get a JDM motor - JDM motors obviously have wiring that suits RHD cars

Their prices are lower too - check their site and you'll find $2,350 gets you a JDM 1992-1995 SiR or SiRII "2nd-gen" B16A with grey plugs and OBD1 ECU, etc.

ITR swaps go for aroung $4,800 too, which is a killer deal IMO.

Check this stuff out and make your motor choice based on what you can afford - breaking your bank will hurt you more in the long run than running .5 slower in the 1/4 mile.

jonas

and some advice.. in addition to the amount you're paying for the swap.. save another $500 or more just incase you're missing something. 75% of the time this will be the case, missing alternator, missing a different mount needed for the motor to fit in your car, axles, just be ready for the worst.
and it would totally suck to have your motor in..ready to be driven, but you're out of $$ for fluids (oil, honda mtf, etc) to run the car.

PIMENTEL

yeah i know, $5000 give or take.....

lets see

3300-b18c
400-broken **** etc
400-used cams and valve springs w retainers
200-used headers
100- chip for my p28 that i already have
250?-new clutch disc
total 4650 and just to be safe - ~180hp

5000-b18c5 *LSD*
400-broken **** etc.
400?-little ob2 problems/ecu
250?-new clutch disc
300-ALARM SYSTEM
total 6350-HOLY **** no way. i know the stock honda build and type r internals kick *** but **** that, a gsr would be more fun to build

i hate to say it but a type r engine is not worth 6+grand...thats about what i could sell my car for WITH the d16
*can someone point out any stupid **** that i wrote...i'm sure my brother will see this and go nuts that i'd rather get a b18c



[Modified by PIMENTEL, 6:23 PM 6/8/2002]


[Modified by PIMENTEL, 6:23 PM 6/8/2002]

B18C5-EH2

Why would you say that a Type R motor isn't worth $6,000 when they can be had for $4,800 for the 100% complete swap?

?

I'll find another posts where I compared part-by-part the B18C1 va. the B16A.

PIMENTEL

oh yeah 4800 plus shipping plus the extra cash to install it yourself

its not like all you need is a screwdriver...im sure you already know that

B18C5-EH2

Another post about this:

One last thing:

You will hear many different opinions about how you should buy the cheaper motor and build it, or you should just buy the best motor from the start, but there's not one clear best answer.

I used to think that you could simply buy a B18C1 and build it to be better than the B18C5 for the same price.

NOT true.

Let's compare, shall we?

B18C1: can be had for a good cheap price of $3,300+shipping. We'll say $3,300 to be safe.

B18C5: Can be had for $4,800+shipping.

So let's say you gut the B18C1 and you "saved" $1,500 because you didn't get the B18C5.

So what do you have to buy in order to get the same type of results as you would with the B18C5? Here we go:

Skunk2 intake manifold. Usually around $300 for the B18C1.

With that manifold you will need a different computer. The P72 GS-R ECU has a 4500rpm VTEC and programming for the secondary butterflies to open up at 600orpm or so. This will suck *** for the Skunk2 manifold, so you will need a re-chipped P28 ECU for roughly $230.00 from H-T's own user "kenji."

ITR cams or at least a CTR intake cam: $250 for CTR cam, $400 for ITR cams.

Higher CR pistons. ITR has higher CR pistons with an anti-friction moly coating in the sides and skirts. You can get JDM ITR pistons for lik3 $330 with rings from various on-line sources.

The ITR head is the same casting as the B16A head, but it has been hand polished from Honda. All in all you can make good power with the B18C1 head, so I won't even add the cost of a mild P&P for it, but you should know that there is a difference.

B18C5 also has lighter valves and retainers, lighter flywheel and lighter, stronger crank, all of which make the motor better, but if you're concerned JUST about whp then these aren't that important in the long run.

Also keep in mind the LABOR in all of this. Cams and pistons being installed is not cheap, and you're basically tearing the motor apart. Keep that in mind too.

So now you're making the same or *maybe* even more power, right? What about the tranny? The GS-R tranny has slightly taller gearing to compliment the broader powerband that it has over the B16A and B18C5. This is NOT the best gearing for all-motor with a ITR-style manifold. With the ITR-programmed ECU, you will drop out of VTEC with the GS-R tranny unless you hit absolute redline, and even still you may drop out on certain shifts.

Also, the ITR tranny has LSD which helps out the cornering immensely and does help hook up better at the strip if you have slicks.

So, sell the GS-R tranny for about $800.00 (going rate, but the price keeps going down) and buy an ITR tranny used for $1,200.00 or so.

So what's the total damage then? Could you duplicate a "poor man's ITR" by buying a B18C1 and building it up and still spend les tha you would have on an ITR B18C5?

Math please:

$3,300+$300+$230+$250+$330+$400(difference in tranny)+LABOR =

$5,140.00 + LABOR

How much can you get the B18C5 or JDM ITR B18C for again?

$4,800.00

See what I mean? And I will say this and you can argue all you want to, but from what I've seen this is totally true:

You cannot beat a stock Honda engine build.

Every time you open up an engine and re-build it, you add human error into the equation and even the best engine builders can make mistakes, or perhaps that "good" engine builder isn't so good after all.

I have seen enough smoking B18C1's that were "built" enough to know that my B18C5 is a true testament to Honda reliability and power. I rev mine to 9000K at least once a day and it never smokes even at 50K miles or so.

So that was just a break down of the B18C1 vs. B18C5. What about the B16A?

What would you have to do to get the B16A to put out similiar numbers to the B18C1 or even B18C5?

Add a stroker kit in there for the B16A, and the labor for that too

And I also know that tools are required, but they will also be required for any other swap too, nit just the ITR - but I'm sure YOU already knew that too, right?

meams

yea ya'lll shipping is a bitch...my friend just got his h22a from hondamotorsonline and it raised the price from 2400 to 2850...so get ready for aprox. 500 bucks shipping...

PIMENTEL

i sure did....
im just saying that its not like 4800 will put the type r engine in your car running, and without any problems
either will 3300 for the b18c

spoon_ek9

yup, what B18C5-EH2 said is right. unless u want to spend more $$$ to change every internal and do it professionally, or else, stock itr motor is your best bet.

jonas

ok.. so whats your point? that means the ITR motor is still cheaper in the long run. and BETTER.

btw: why did you include an alarm as part of the MOTOR PRICE.

jonas

why would you buy a b18c5 with "broken ****" for 5000?
400 bucks for "little ob2 problems" ?
wtf.. i think you're taking this too far lol.

shawnhayes

Well, you can't build it to be better than the B18C5 for the same price, but you can build it to be better for slightly higher cost.

Forced Induction

Type R motors (both B16B and B18C5's, and JDM B18C spec R's) are poorly suited for forced induction. They have to be "de-tuned" to be force fed. You can't make 500hp with a stock B18C5, but you can make 500hp with a GSR motor with valvetrain and bottom end upgrades. Given, you could also do this with a B18C5, but you'd have started $1500 more, and lots of the goody good that makes the B18C5 better than the B18C1 you have to replace anyway.

This is about the best reason I can think to start with a B18C1 rather than a C5, is forced induction.

Shawn

gamby

Inevitably, Murphy's Law dictates that not everything is going to be put together like the guys on "Horsepower TV" do it. Factoring in "broken stuff" into a budget is just common sense.

jonas

yeah, but you dont buy an ITR motor for 5000 with $500 worth of broken stuff.
like tom said, you can get it from hondamotorsonline for 4800, and if theres broken stuff, steve will either tell u before hand, or he'll replace it.

B18C5-EH2

This is odd - me and Shawn aren't seeing totally eye-to-eye on something?



Actually the B16A and B18C5 are great for boost - even 100% stock internals.

What would be your main concern for boosting an ITR motor Shawn? Compression perhaps?

The USDM B18C5 sports 10.6:1 CR while the JDM GS-R/SiR-G motor (their version of the B18C1) sports the same 10.6:1 CR as well.

I see tons of boosted JDM B18C (GS-R) motors with no problems, so why would the ITR be any different?

Check the ITR MB and post up and ask who is boosting on their Rs, and you will be surprised.

For many the only de-tuning they did was kick back the timing and run colder plugs.

With any boosted set-up TUNING is the key to a healthy motor, and with proper tuning and good management or at least a good way to tune A/F a B18C5 will always make more power than the same set-up boost-wise on a B18C1 or B16A.

The ITR is actually a stronger motor from the factory, and stronger means less likely to blow when compared to the same set-up on a GS-R motor, right?

Not trying to be an ***, but just stating some things, that's all.

*IF* I were to bost though, I would not want to boost my B18C5 motor as a first choice because when boosting anything can happen, and if I am going to put a motor at risk, it will be a more readily available motor such as a B16A or something.

Try that post in the ITR forum, really. Those guys are die-hard fans most of the time.


[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 3:21 PM 6/8/2002]