To settle the H22 Vs B Series Weight Arguement I bring you this... (pics)
11-21-2003, 04:44 PM
#52
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Re: (mister2racer)
Great informative post, Charles. I love this kind of info...
Check out his website and dyno shop in the Chicago area
http://www.cj-motorsports.com
How about doing a new post on removing the balance shafts properly
Earl
Check out his website and dyno shop in the Chicago area
http://www.cj-motorsports.com
How about doing a new post on removing the balance shafts properly
Earl
11-21-2003, 04:45 PM
#53
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Re: (93egsi)
I didn't read all the posts, but weight difference may not be that great. It's where you are placing the added weight that affects it's handling characteristics also. All of it is in front of the axles and the shocks. 20, 30 lbs extra hanging all the way up front is gonna make a noticeable differnce, but obviouisly that's different for each individual person. Big increase if you look at it like that.
11-21-2003, 05:03 PM
#54
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Re: (GsR HtCh)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by GsR HtCh »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">great info. i wish i had all those things just lying around to be weighed. 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, me too. Outstanding info.
</TD></TR></TABLE>Yeah, me too. Outstanding info.
11-22-2003, 05:13 PM
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Re: (Bumnah)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bumnah »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I didn't read all the posts, but weight difference may not be that great. It's where you are placing the added weight that affects it's handling characteristics also. All of it is in front of the axles and the shocks. 20, 30 lbs extra hanging all the way up front is gonna make a noticeable differnce, but obviouisly that's different for each individual person. Big increase if you look at it like that.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's a good point and something I never thought about.
Even if the H-series engine does weigh a significant amount more than a D or B, it won't make a difference on a daily driver and can be offsetted with suspension work for the track.
Great write-up, too!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
That's a good point and something I never thought about.
Even if the H-series engine does weigh a significant amount more than a D or B, it won't make a difference on a daily driver and can be offsetted with suspension work for the track.
Great write-up, too!
. i think you put some feet in a few people's mouths... i would like to see a complete h22 swap and a complete b18c5 swap weighed.
11-22-2003, 05:19 PM
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Re: (clm)
Cool thread but i just have to say who gives a **** about less than a 50 pound difference. I mean cmon, unless you have a tourless wonder like a b16 then weight isnt gonna play a huge factor. Also the H22 sits abit further back than a b series mounted in a civic so then the extra weight would be more over the front wheels which would actually help in traction. Oh and im surprised that Tom hasnt posted on this thread. haha. Oh well this agruement would and will go on forever.
11-22-2003, 05:21 PM
#59
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Re: (jDmDxTuRd)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jDmDxTuRd »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also the H22 sits abit further back than a b series mounted in a civic so then the extra weight would be more over the front wheels which would actually help in traction. </TD></TR></TABLE>
From a handling stand point, though, that's a bad thing, but for drag racing, it's even better.
From a handling stand point, though, that's a bad thing, but for drag racing, it's even better.
11-22-2003, 05:45 PM
#60
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yes i read all the posts
think about it this way
you can weigh stuff seperately but when all is said and done
bone stock b16 vs h22 weight difference will be 65 lbs!!!!
we are talking stock vs stock....that is really the only fair comparison since most don't build their engines....
to the original poster good job....if i had an h22 laying around at the shop i would weight them....since i do have a bone stock b16a laying there....
a b18c5 is going to weigh more than a b16a....#1 b18's have 7mm more deck height....although a b16 flywheel weighs 2-3lbs more than a c5 flywheel....the differences add up.....
when we have a b series swap delivered weight coming in on the pallet is 350lbs....when an h22 comes in weight is 425 lbs....those are complete swaps...so when all is said and done i will bet money that h22 is at least 65lbs more
and if the h tranny is only 6 lbs more i tell you what that 6lbs feels like 30lbs when you are lifting it by yourself.....and when i shipped my b series tranny weight at MAILBOXES ETC was 75lbs with packaging....so is it possible YOUR (original poster) scales were off?
you can weigh stuff seperately but when all is said and done
bone stock b16 vs h22 weight difference will be 65 lbs!!!!
we are talking stock vs stock....that is really the only fair comparison since most don't build their engines....
to the original poster
good job....if i had an h22 laying around at the shop i would weight them....since i do have a bone stock b16a laying there....a b18c5 is going to weigh more than a b16a....#1 b18's have 7mm more deck height....although a b16 flywheel weighs 2-3lbs more than a c5 flywheel....the differences add up.....
when we have a b series swap delivered weight coming in on the pallet is 350lbs....when an h22 comes in weight is 425 lbs....those are complete swaps...so when all is said and done i will bet money that h22 is at least 65lbs more
and if the h tranny is only 6 lbs more i tell you what that 6lbs feels like 30lbs when you are lifting it by yourself.....and when i shipped my b series tranny weight at MAILBOXES ETC was 75lbs with packaging....so is it possible YOUR (original poster) scales were off?
11-22-2003, 05:57 PM
#61
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Re: (clm)
Personally I dont think Id bother getting into an argument over which motor is better...thats just stupid.
But this info is great to check out...cant wait for the final assembled numbers.
But this info is great to check out...cant wait for the final assembled numbers.
11-22-2003, 06:28 PM
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Re: (RangerDan)
yeah it may be heavier, but what about hte extra quart of oil, the other 2 quarts you burned since the last oil change that at stuck to your exhuast, and then the extra quart you need to carry in the trunk.
11-22-2003, 07:56 PM
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Well since you can get a custom crank for a B and sleeve it to 2.2Liter then i guess for me in the end it would come down to which head can flow the most and which transmission would be able to withstand 500+ HP in a turbo application. Basically say i wanted a 600HP turboed honda engine which engine would be the best to build up?
11-22-2003, 08:57 PM
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Re: (mikefxu)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mikefxu »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well since you can get a custom crank for a B and sleeve it to 2.2Liter then i guess for me in the end it would come down to which head can flow the most and which transmission would be able to withstand 500+ HP in a turbo application. Basically say i wanted a 600HP turboed honda engine which engine would be the best to build up?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Head Flow - H>B. H-series heads flow really well. But here trannys do suck.
Tranny- H<B. B-series head don't flow as much as a h-series but they got awesome trannys.
I can't wait till someone comes out with an adaptor plate to bolt a b-series tranny to a h-series block.
This is very good info. Can't wait to see the assembled numbers.
Head Flow - H>B. H-series heads flow really well. But here trannys do suck.
Tranny- H<B. B-series head don't flow as much as a h-series but they got awesome trannys.
I can't wait till someone comes out with an adaptor plate to bolt a b-series tranny to a h-series block.
This is very good info
. Can't wait to see the assembled numbers.
11-22-2003, 09:32 PM
#67
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the probability of my scale being that innaccurate is really low. its dead on when we all stand on it to check our weight. it says the same shait as other scales i stand on.
i have both the heads here now, i just have to get them assembled to a comparable level of completion. i will weigh them tommarow probably.
i will not deny that the H is heavier... my goal was just to show that it isnt all that bad. With proper intentions and mods its hardly heavier at all then a B16. I have no idea how much a B18 weighs over the B16 tho.
My H22 is hardcore built and will make shitloads of power. Nothing that a B series cant do... but in my case I wanted that power at less boost, more power on street gas, and better throttle response. Nothing is better for this than displacement. You can get a B almost or all the way to a H's displacement... but my H is stock bore stock stroke... much more likely to offer me longevity then a motor brought to the edge. If I wanted the edge then this engine would be 2.4L and would be making 700+ HP.
I just want 450 pump gas, and close to 600 race. That is no big deal for this engine, and it would be a much bigger deal to get the B to that level.
My civic is not being built as a auto-x car. However, it has mods including Ohlins coilovers, GSR Front LCAS, All bushigns, all new tie rods and ball joints, DSS Stage 3's, Traction Rods, front GSR sway, carbing tower, comptech ITR rear sway tie combo, ITR rear LCAs, and lots and lots more. Fast brakes 11" front and rear with 4pot fronts. I am building this car to be as stable as possible. I want this car to be rock solid at high speeds so I can compete with bigger league cars in real world high speed applications. I am not looking to pull 1.5g's, I am just looking for a car that is solid as a rock and handles and accelerates like ****. I think the weight of the H will only help stablize the car further anyhow, even tho it wont be much more weight at all.
To each their own. I absolutely love the B series engine, and for a long time I was a diehard D fan. What it comes down to is I am sick of all the B'ers that are haters on the H. There is no reason to hate. The H deserves respect cause it has some characteristics that the B will never have. Vice Versa as well.
For my application, the H is hands down the easy choice, I didnt need to flip a coin. But talking **** about the H needs to stop. The H is a more difficult swap and when its done clean it deserves lots of props. Its not clean unless you make and do it clean. The B drops right in, if the B isnt in there clean then someone isnt a pro.
Once Again, the B, D, and H are all brothers. While the parts may not be modular each has its best application. Many people will select what they can based on budget or maybe someone choose the H purely cause its a more hands on difficult swap and they wanted to overcome the challange.
In too many words I am just saying: STOP HATING ON THE H. It can do things that a B cant do. We all know and give lots of props to the skillz that the B has... so why cant the haters just relax and give the H props where its due, and admit that there are many advantages to it even tho it has some disadvantages.
Sorry for going off. We're all gonna get owned by the K soon anyway so fuggit.
Props: B. D. H. K.
Edit: OOPS... F Too!
-Charles
i have both the heads here now, i just have to get them assembled to a comparable level of completion. i will weigh them tommarow probably.
i will not deny that the H is heavier... my goal was just to show that it isnt all that bad. With proper intentions and mods its hardly heavier at all then a B16. I have no idea how much a B18 weighs over the B16 tho.
My H22 is hardcore built and will make shitloads of power. Nothing that a B series cant do... but in my case I wanted that power at less boost, more power on street gas, and better throttle response. Nothing is better for this than displacement. You can get a B almost or all the way to a H's displacement... but my H is stock bore stock stroke... much more likely to offer me longevity then a motor brought to the edge. If I wanted the edge then this engine would be 2.4L and would be making 700+ HP.
I just want 450 pump gas, and close to 600 race. That is no big deal for this engine, and it would be a much bigger deal to get the B to that level.
My civic is not being built as a auto-x car. However, it has mods including Ohlins coilovers, GSR Front LCAS, All bushigns, all new tie rods and ball joints, DSS Stage 3's, Traction Rods, front GSR sway, carbing tower, comptech ITR rear sway tie combo, ITR rear LCAs, and lots and lots more. Fast brakes 11" front and rear with 4pot fronts. I am building this car to be as stable as possible. I want this car to be rock solid at high speeds so I can compete with bigger league cars in real world high speed applications. I am not looking to pull 1.5g's, I am just looking for a car that is solid as a rock and handles and accelerates like ****. I think the weight of the H will only help stablize the car further anyhow, even tho it wont be much more weight at all.
To each their own. I absolutely love the B series engine, and for a long time I was a diehard D fan. What it comes down to is I am sick of all the B'ers that are haters on the H. There is no reason to hate. The H deserves respect cause it has some characteristics that the B will never have. Vice Versa as well.
For my application, the H is hands down the easy choice, I didnt need to flip a coin. But talking **** about the H needs to stop. The H is a more difficult swap and when its done clean it deserves lots of props. Its not clean unless you make and do it clean. The B drops right in, if the B isnt in there clean then someone isnt a pro.
Once Again, the B, D, and H are all brothers. While the parts may not be modular each has its best application. Many people will select what they can based on budget or maybe someone choose the H purely cause its a more hands on difficult swap and they wanted to overcome the challange.
In too many words I am just saying: STOP HATING ON THE H. It can do things that a B cant do. We all know and give lots of props to the skillz that the B has... so why cant the haters just relax and give the H props where its due, and admit that there are many advantages to it even tho it has some disadvantages.
Sorry for going off. We're all gonna get owned by the K soon anyway so fuggit.
Props: B. D. H. K.
Edit: OOPS... F Too!
-Charles
.........lol JP mang
11-22-2003, 10:18 PM
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Re: (clm)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by clm »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From a handling stand point, though, that's a bad thing, but for drag racing, it's even better.</TD></TR></TABLE> why is it a bad thing for handling?.........your shifting the weight toward the center of gravity.....last I heard thats a good thing........but whaddoooooo I know?..............John
From a handling stand point, though, that's a bad thing, but for drag racing, it's even better.</TD></TR></TABLE> why is it a bad thing for handling?.........your shifting the weight toward the center of gravity.....last I heard thats a good thing........but whaddoooooo I know?..............John
11-22-2003, 11:21 PM
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Re: To settle the H22 Vs B Series Weight Arguement I bring you this... (JDM Spec SeDaN)
One thing I was thinking about.
Someone was complaining about the dual runner IM weighing more in the H-series.
Doesn't one of the b18's have dual runners? p72 or p28 or something, I'm pretty sure one of those ecu's use it...
Someone was complaining about the dual runner IM weighing more in the H-series.
Doesn't one of the b18's have dual runners? p72 or p28 or something, I'm pretty sure one of those ecu's use it...
11-22-2003, 11:53 PM
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Re: To settle the H22 Vs B Series Weight Arguement I bring you this... (Alstare)
the p72 is the dual runner ecu its for the gsr motor.
i heard that the H sits a little more forward than the B, D motors. is that true? ive never seen H swaps so i dont know but would like to. if it does that means that that weight is more on the front which is bad for handling and good for drag. id love to see a car put on a corner wieghing scale and see the difference between the 2 swaps B vs H.
very good info by the way im waiting for the final wiegh in of the fully build motor with all the stuff on them.
i heard that the H sits a little more forward than the B, D motors. is that true? ive never seen H swaps so i dont know but would like to. if it does that means that that weight is more on the front which is bad for handling and good for drag. id love to see a car put on a corner wieghing scale and see the difference between the 2 swaps B vs H.
very good info by the way im waiting for the final wiegh in of the fully build motor with all the stuff on them.
11-23-2003, 12:00 AM
#74
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Re: (h22John)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by h22John »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> why is it a bad thing for handling?.........your shifting the weight toward the center of gravity.....last I heard thats a good thing........but whaddoooooo I know?..............John</TD></TR></TABLE>
Assuming the H22 adds more weight behind the front axles, it'll shift the neutral weight distribution towards the center more, and thus, lessening the understeer. Same principle as MR vehicles like the S2000 and RX7 (I believe they have the engine mounted in between the axles anyway); they have excellent handling because they can push more weight towards the center creating more stability.
Now, having more weight over the front wheels in general is good in drag racing. Supposed to help with traction or something. I'm not sure on all the specifics since I never really got into drag racing, but look at Bisi's drag CRX. He has very little rear suspension which creates less weight in the rear and putting most of it on the front.
But I could be wrong. It makes sense in my head and that makes me happy. Besides, it's also 4 am.
Assuming the H22 adds more weight behind the front axles, it'll shift the neutral weight distribution towards the center more, and thus, lessening the understeer. Same principle as MR vehicles like the S2000 and RX7 (I believe they have the engine mounted in between the axles anyway); they have excellent handling because they can push more weight towards the center creating more stability.
Now, having more weight over the front wheels in general is good in drag racing. Supposed to help with traction or something. I'm not sure on all the specifics since I never really got into drag racing, but look at Bisi's drag CRX. He has very little rear suspension which creates less weight in the rear and putting most of it on the front.
But I could be wrong. It makes sense in my head and that makes me happy.
Besides, it's also 4 am.
11-23-2003, 01:04 AM
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Re: (Hatchy-Ownzjo0)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hatchy-Ownzjo0 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">good info.. I'll sacrafice 35 lbs for 30+ extra ft/lbs of torque.. </TD></TR></TABLE>
agreed
</TD></TR></TABLE> agreed