peja43916

I have a 98 Honda Civic LX sedan and the problem is that the brakes are not reacting the way they should when I step on them. When I step on the brakes, it does not stop the car right away. There seems to be a couple of inches of dead space from the pedal until it actually stops the car. I have installed a brand new Master Cylinder, brand new front and back brakes. Bled the brakes numerous times and now I don't know what else to do. What else can cause this problem? I don't think it is the Booster because I am not getting a hard pedal. The pedal is not sinking to the floor so I don't think the new Master Cylinder is bad.

ironlung78

sounds like you need to re-bleed your brakes.. usually when there is some dead space on the pedal its because there is air in the lines. If you installed a new master cylinder i'm sure you lost all pressure in the lines. you may want to inspect your brake lines to see if any are damaged or corroded (any leaks?)because you could be sucking in air that way.

have a buddy help you bleed them.. have him/her pump the brakes rapidly multiple times and hold the pedal down with firm pressure while you crack open the bleeder screw. Once it squirts out when you crack it open, close the bleeder and he can take his foot off the brake at that time. do this multiple times on each one starting with the one farthest from the master cylinder. Make sure the reservoir does not drain out because you'll have to start all over again.... i've also found that it works better while the car is on because they are power brakes!!!
Good luck. if this don't work someone will be able to help on these boards

_Cyclone_

Did you bench bleed the new master before installing it? If not, you have to bleed it according to the mfg's instructions. Since you've installed it already, you'll have to use the line wrench technique.

Have a friend pump the pedal and hold, then loosen each individual brake line on the master with your line wrench as if it were a bleeder valve. You have to do this in the proper order... the info should be in the box that the new master came in. This method is not as effective as bench bleeding, but it works nonetheless...

Ben_si

This could be the problem if you live in a cold climate. You caliper could be frozen shut, I took my breaks apart yesterday and thats what the problem was (breaks feeling soft)

hassan_1321

it actually sounds like all you need to do is adjust the rear brakes, LX sedans have drums in the rear. If its out of adjustment it affects pedal height

peja43916

I have bled the brakes numberous times, and yes I did bench bleed the MC before I installed it. I don't think I have a leak anywhere because my pedal does not sink to the floor when I press on it. I did just install new shoes in the back . What do I need to adjust on them?

Evs-One

yeah, in a drum/disc setup, the front discs are not applied until the rears overcome return spring pressure...the metering valve controls this.

Here's what you do...

pull off your rear tires, and with the ebrake off, spin the drum. There should be slight resistance. With a nice spin of the drum, it should spin about 1 full revolution before stopping. If it spins easy, simply remove the drum and turn the adjuster nut to expand the rear shoes, then install the drum and do our little test again!

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hassan_1321 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">it actually sounds like all you need to do is adjust the rear brakes, LX sedans have drums in the rear. If its out of adjustment it affects pedal height</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, I thought drum brakes were self-adjusting? Like the adjusted when you put the parking brake on or whatever.

I am having the very same exact problem. It's very dangerous now that it is winter here and I want the problem fixed but now I have christmas and a hood to fix. I've replaced a leaking drum brake cylinder, new front pads w/ molykote, bled the brakes numerous time using 2 different methods and still no go. I believe the brake bleeding stuff is bs for me becuase the pedal's performance did not change one bit - no worse no better - each time after doing the brakes.

_Cyclone_

If you've properly bled everything, I would also suggest the rear adjustment. With a flat head screwdriver, move the self adjuster gear in the direction so the shoes move apart from each other, the direction is different on each side. Move it a little bit at a time, then put the drum back on each time and give it a turn. You should repeat this until there's a little bit of drag on the drum... it's hard to explain how much drag... I'd still want to be able to rotate the drum fairly easily with 4 fingers. Do this to both sides, then (make sure you put the drums back on) see what the pedal feels like.

MR5sARECOOL

I agree, try adjusting the rear drums. I always do it with the tires on.

peja43916

I have adjusted the rear drum like you guys said to the point where I can barely turn the drum with my hand and it still is the same way. What should I do now? I really don't want to have to pay big money for something to fix it if it's something I could do myself.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by peja43916 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have adjusted the rear drum like you guys said to the point where I can barely turn the drum with my hand and it still is the same way. What should I do now? I really don't want to have to pay big money for something to fix it if it's something I could do myself. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Me neither peja...

Here are the possibilities I've identified...
- Air trapped in the MC : Get a NEW MC, not Referb. Install properly.
- Some type of contaminate stuck in brake lines : New lines front-to-back
- Heavily worn out flexible rubber lines in wheel wells : New flex lines.
- Worn Calipers : Rebuild or replace w/ new.
- Brakes were meant to go down this far

crzyfool24

good advice

peja43916

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Paprika &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Me neither peja...

Here are the possibilities I've identified...
- Air trapped in the MC : Get a NEW MC, not Referb. Install properly.
- Some type of contaminate stuck in brake lines : New lines front-to-back
- Heavily worn out flexible rubber lines in wheel wells : New flex lines.
- Worn Calipers : Rebuild or replace w/ new.
- Brakes were meant to go down this far
</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have installed a NEW , not refurbished MC as noted in my first post.
It is gonna be a pain to figure out if any of the rest are what is wrong .

civicboisi

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by peja43916 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have adjusted the rear drum like you guys said to the point where I can barely turn the drum with my hand and it still is the same way. What should I do now? I really don't want to have to pay big money for something to fix it if it's something I could do myself. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you weren't paying much attention...we said adjust them with some slight drag...NOT to the point where you can't turn both of them...

also...tell us exactually HOW you're bleeding the brakes...that way we know it's not a flaw in the method of how you're doing it.

Paprika

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by peja43916 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I have installed a NEW , not refurbished MC as noted in my first post.
It is gonna be a pain to figure out if any of the rest are what is wrong . </TD></TR></TABLE>
Sorry, I must have forgotten about the MC. I haven't been in this thread in a few days.


Pain? Yes. I want this brake problem fixed, it's winter here and this problem is dangerous.

peja43916

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicboisi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you weren't paying much attention...we said adjust them with some slight drag...NOT to the point where you can't turn both of them...

also...tell us exactually HOW you're bleeding the brakes...that way we know it's not a flaw in the method of how you're doing it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, originally I did have them to the point where there was slight drag but I decided to adjust them some more with more drag to see if it made a difference, in which it did not.

The way I am bleeding the brakes is I have a friend pump the brakes from inside the car while I am releasing the bleeder valve. I am using a bleed kit that has a hose that connects to the bleeder with and the other end that goes into the bottle that is partially filled with brake fluid. I have my friend pump the brakes until I don't see any big bubbles in the hose. I do notice that there are tiny bubbles but as much as I pump they do not go away. Someone said that you will get tiny bubbles in the lines and that is normal as long as there are no big ones.

civicboisi

lol...well...someone is wrong...you don't go by bubbles when bleeding your brakes. And yes i agree...it is a big problem you have to fix, and fast too.

When you're bleeding your brakes (this topic has been covered numerous times) make sure your friend isn't letting off the pedal until you have securly tighten the valve. Should go like:

Friend pumps 3 times and holds the pedal and says "Down"
While he's holding the pedal, you release the valve.
Repeat 3 times or until there is NO AIR and ONLY fluid coming out.
Ask how the pedal feels.
Repeat on other side.

Also...readjust the rear drums back to slight drag.

peja43916

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicboisi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol...well...someone is wrong...you don't go by bubbles when bleeding your brakes. And yes i agree...it is a big problem you have to fix, and fast too.

When you're bleeding your brakes (this topic has been covered numerous times) make sure your friend isn't letting off the pedal until you have securly tighten the valve. Should go like:

Friend pumps 3 times and holds the pedal and says "Down"
While he's holding the pedal, you release the valve.
Repeat 3 times or until there is NO AIR and ONLY fluid coming out.
Ask how the pedal feels.
Repeat on other side.

Also...readjust the rear drums back to slight drag.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree with you on your way of bleeding brakes, but the way I am doing it is that when the pedal is pressed and then released there is no air being sucked in because the hose from the bleeder valve into the bottle is submerged into brake fluid and when he lets go of the pedal it just sucks the brake fluid from inside the bottle into the brake lines and then it returns to the bottle when he pressed down just like it does from the resovoir. Is this not a way to do it also? I use this system all the time even on this car in the past and I have never had a problem with it.

Paprika

On a side note, I've tried that method but it's just as good as the bleeder screw's seal to the drum cylinder. I had one guy tell me once that his brake system keep sucking in air around the threads of his bleeder screw and he had to put teflon tape on the threads to get it to quit doing that, after which it worked perfectly. Ugh.. what a hassel.

personally I'd be concerned if air was getting sucked back in around the bleeder screws somehow, because dispite my efforts to bleed the brakes and the sheer amount of fluid i've put through the system, the pedal is still bad for me.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by peja43916 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I agree with you on your way of bleeding brakes, but the way I am doing it is that when the pedal is pressed and then released there is no air being sucked in because the hose from the bleeder valve into the bottle is submerged into brake fluid and when he lets go of the pedal it just sucks the brake fluid from inside the bottle into the brake lines and then it returns to the bottle when he pressed down just like it does from the resovoir. Is this not a way to do it also? I use this system all the time even on this car in the past and I have never had a problem with it. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Unfortunately that may not work. I hate to say this, but try the mehtod civicboisi posted. Everyone else on the board has blasted me about using this method when I said I'd rahter use some type of one-man method.

Try speed bleeders too, they're fail proof theoretically.

civicboisi

think about it this way...brakes were almost always bled this way before they had that new brake bleeding invention or whatever...and personally...i don't really like that system either. I've never had problems with sticking to what works and whats always worked in the past and present. if all else fails, go back to your past roots!

peja43916

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by civicboisi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">think about it this way...brakes were almost always bled this way before they had that new brake bleeding invention or whatever...and personally...i don't really like that system either. I've never had problems with sticking to what works and whats always worked in the past and present. if all else fails, go back to your past roots! </TD></TR></TABLE>

I will try it the other way. Thanks for the help Civiboisi and Paprika.....

civicboisi

sure anytime! and keep us up to post on the conditions and if it helped any.

_Cyclone_

I have a few more tips for you from my experience.

First, you want to bleed at each location in the following order:
1. Passenger Rear
2. Driver Front
3. Driver Rear
4. Passenger Front

Doing so otherwise may take a lot longer to get all the air out due to the brake distribution.

Second, you can try a combination of both bleeding methods. This method has never failed for me. Have your friend sit in the car, tell him to pump. After you've heard the pedal get pumped 4-5 times, tell him to hold. When he's holding, loosen your bleeder screw until fluid comes out, but tighten it back down before the fluid stops coming out - ie before the pedal goes all the way to the floor. This will prevent air from returning into the system. At the same time, you can have the clear tube attached to the bleeder and submersed in brake fluid, but this is more you to watch at this point... just to give you an idea of what's coming out.

Chances are you'll have to repeat this whole process so many times that it hurts. I think probably about 4-5 times should do it. Remember to always keep lots of fluid in the reservoir while you're doing this. And also, be happy you are doing this to a Honda, they're pretty straightforward. I have owned two Saturns in the past and have had to replace wheel cylinders, flex lines and calipers. Bleeding the brakes on a Saturn is the worst thing in the world, you can never get it right again...

Paprika

Most of all, please keep us updated. I am depending on this thread and others like it to figure out what to do about my brakes, they're dangerous man. Help others by coming back and telling us what you did.

I just need somwhere to do the bleed work and a few people and some cash for fluid, new bleeder screws and flare wrenches so I won't strip the bleeders like I have in the past.