Xscort

http://techauto.awardspace.com/ignit....html#symptoms

I used that techauto site above and I believe I have a symptom of the ign switch, but I'm not sure.

My car has set here in this crappy Cola, SC weather for appr. 7 mos. I finally changed the clutch which what kept me from moving it anywhere. I've started and ran the car appr. 20 times since January. I finally got the car up and moving yesterday evening and I get to my destination and the car wouldn't restart and still isn't this morning. Its a 94 EX. I figure is one of 3 things. The ignition switch, main relay/bad fuel pump, and/or bad starter connection.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/mainrelay.html
Tegger says I should hear 3 clicks, I guess on every turn pos. I pretty much really hear 1 click and that's on the 2nd pos. right before start.

rsnupt82

i say battery is dead..... if your relays are clicking... and you lights don't blink.. then most likely theres no current going thru the system....

Xscort

Battery was 1st thing I've checked. I have a charger as well and it has enough volts. I still barely hear the fuel pump, so I'm going to grab another relay from a junk civic and swap out my fuel pump, if that don't work, chances are its in the ignition key switch.

90Rexx

When you put the key onto the "on" position, do you hear the fuel pump prime?

if the car doesnt crank its not the fuel pump btw...

if you hear your fuel pump prime, its not the main relay, since the main relay engergizes the fuel pump.

Xscort

90rex, I hear it and I don't. I haven't driven the car in months, so I'm not too used to the sound yet again. I've started the car numerous of times yesterday and it ran fine. I just can't recall the decibel of hearing the pump since it's been a while. The priming sounds very faint compared to what "I believe" I was used to hearing, if that makes any sense.

I used two batteries. THe one that I have in there now is fully charged and my normal battery. I turn the key to start, nothing happens but silence and a faint almost inaudible click. The dash lights stay light and all. I used my 2nd battery, but I used my charger to do a jump start. I put the key in the ignition and I hear nothing but clicks from the main relay and the tach jumped up and down.

IN THE MEANTIME:
I opened up the back end of the ignition switch and look at the outside of the solder for any pitting, didn't see any to my knowledge. I'm going to check in a few once I grab me a small flathead screwdriver to remove the plastic piece to check the inside of the solder for pitting.


On the Tegger site he confuses me on the main relay and ign switch troubleshoots:

"The Main Relay will click three times during the starting process. When problems arise, one of those clicks (usually the third) is missing, making those clicks a handy diagnostics tool. If you consistently hear/feel all three clicks, the Relay is fine. DO NOT REPLACE IT."

"If the fuel pump fails to run during the two seconds of Check Engine illumination, the PGM-FI Main Relay may be bad."

SO, if I the CEL does do its proper 2 second lighting, but the pump isn't priming AND I do hear a click from the relay, then what can be the problem?? It's like I have mixed/hybrid symptoms lol!!! I've read almost everything on those two sites, and they've proven very knowledgeable, but I still can't figure out the problem. So pretty much, I only hear the 2nd click after the 2 sec CEL simulation.

I'm still goin to grab a relay from the yard. Based on bad ign switch pictures, if there was pitting on the inside, chances are it'll show up on the outside contact...I just don't see any on the outside contact, so I assume there isn't anything wrong on the inside. I'll remove that plastic piece if I can though.

Xscort

My car interior has been getting really hot....I mean we've had many 95 degree, upwards of 100 deg weather here in Cola, SC thus far this summer. And my car sits almost directly under the sun during the peak. I got newspaper in there that's discolor, a black shirt that faded, scent trees, and all kinds of things that were almost in direct sunlight in the car. The only thing that I believe is just the heat probably messing up the relay, although I'm hearing the clicks.

Xscort

The main relay typically fails in three ways.

One is when there is only 1 click after turning the key and the fuel pump won't run.
The other is when the check engine light is steady on (no clicks) and the fuel pump won't run.
The third, most uncommon, is when the check engine light goes on and off normally (click on and click off normally) and the fuel pump won't run. This symptom needs to be tested in order to rule out the possibility of a dead fuel pump or a bad power supply that is too low to run the fuel pump.

Here is more info from techauto, my symptom appears to be the 3rd scenario.

Former User

I'm confused by your focus on the main relay and fuel pump. I think you said that when the key is turned to ON(III) to start the engine, the starter fails to crank the engine. If so, first figure out why the starter is not cranking the engine. Start by checking the starter switch at the top of the clutch pedal and the starter itself. Also try to push start the car.

Xscort

RonJ, I briefly checked it...it started to rain and was getting dark. I just stuck my finger up there to see it was sticking or anything and/or moving around. Everything was pretty much solid. I plugged the main relay back up and I get a click and I don't now. The CEL will stay on and at times come on and off without any clicks. I'm still going to have to pick up a M/R to see where to go at from here.

Former User

When you turn the key to ON(III), does the starter crank the engine but it won't start? If not, try to push start your car. This bypasses the need for both the starter switch and starter. If the engine starts with a push start, your main relay is fine.

Is the battery fully charged?

Xscort

Sorry things were unclear...in my very 1st post I had everything explained, I believe when I went to edit it and add another link, I deleted text.

So basically, the car was running and everytime I got to a stoplight it would act is if it were going to die, so I gave it gas and didn't give it a chance to die(thank God). I made it to my destination. I let the car to continue to run and it did. The moment I shut it off, it wouldn't restart nor attempt to. I put the key in and press down clutch pedal and try to start, but there is silence and the starter didn't turn over. The dashlights remained on and the CEL went through its normal operative procedures(2 sec, 2 relay clicks etc..).

The battery is fully charged. I check all the connections and grounds again and checked starter connections. Up a few posts, I was telling 90Rexx of how I "believe" I was hearing the fuel pump prime. It sounded very very very faint(whine).

As of NOW, after disconnecting the relay and plugging it back up to attempt it again...There are NO clicks, and at times just one click when I turn key to (II). The CEL now sometimes remain lit, AND other times it'll go through the 2 sec procedure, but NO CLICKS. When I turn to (III), there is nothing but silence and another almost inaudible click or something.

So as of right now the Main Relay seems to be a problem. I want the OEM Mitsuba relay, but hopefully O'Reillys will carry something worthwhile and I'ma pick that up in the morning.

96DelSol

Maybe your tranny ground is off.

Former User

So based on what you are saying, you seem to have two separate problems.

1) The starter does NOT crank the engine in ON(III).

2) The CEL and main relay are NOT behaving properly in ON(II).

Is this correct?

For (1), insert a jumper wire into the starter switch at the top of the clutch pedal to see whether this allows the starter to crank the engine.

For (2), check whether fuse 31, 24, or 18 is blown.

Xscort

For the #1 scenario, you mean "doesn't" because I was saying it doesn't crank or even attempt, there nothing but silence lol.

And correct for #2. That clutch switch is nothing but a safety to prevent from starting in gear right??? On my Escort, I removed it and jumped the two together so I can reach thru the window and start my car whenever I'm outside of it and dont feel like getting in. Could I just splice those two together if I wanted to in the future?

As for the fuses, I checked them when the situation 1st happened. I'll recheck them again in the morning.

pemd5555

Ok, let me get me recap. You did a clutch in you're car and it sat in your driveway/garage for 7 months. You pulled the starter and separated the transmission from the engine obviously... So my guess is this. First things first check the starter fuse and relay. Second check you're transmission ground. Third, Check your connections to you're starter (Solenoid, positive battery cable, and depending on which car small ground cable). If all that checks out then it's you're starter bro. Try tapping it with a small hammer or wrench, while someone turns the key. If there is a burn spot in the commutator, or the brushes are worn out you'll know. Fuel pumps and relays can cause a no start, but usually your motor will crank over and not catch. So rule out fuel pumps and cluster pins and what not. No start no crank means just the starter system. I'm basing this off the info on this thread that when you turn the key all the lights dim, nothing happens, and all your connections, fuses and relays are good up to this point. If tapping it doesn't work roll start it and drive to Napa, Autozone, Advanced Auto, or CAP and get a starter haha

pemd5555

oh I didn't see the edit on this. I agree with RonJ@HT. As far as the dying out while idling is considered thats a whole other issue.

Xscort

The car itself sat, trans hooked up and all for 7 months. But I've started it appr. 20-30 just to let it run during that time. I just got the clutch on Tuesday, but I dropped the trans 2wks ago. It acted as if it was going to die out, but I didn't give it a chance to b/c I kept giving it gas at the stoplights. My trip across town was about 20mins. When I got to my dads, I got out the car and let it run just to see if it would die out; it didn't. I turn the car off, go inside for about an hour and come out to leave off.

I turn the key to (III) and there was nothing; no catching, no starting, or no sounds other than the 2 clicks that I originally heard BEFORE I started disconnecting the main relay to look at the solder joints.

As of now, my post to RonJ explains everything that is happening NOW. The car is a 94, and as I've said before the car did sit for 7mos in this Cola, SC "Hot & Humid" weather, and I did look at the solder joints of the relay and a few of them are kinda drying out which is a symptom, BUT I heard the normative clicks, and now I don't after reconnecting it after inspection.

Former User

No crank problem:
Yes, I meant "does NOT crank". I have now corrected this typo. 96DelSol and Pemd5555 provided some good advice on the "no crank" problem. You definitely want to check the tranny ground wire. When you turn the key to ON(III), do you hear the starter solenoid click? If so, the starter switch on the clutch pedal is likely fine, so you should then focus on the starter motor, its connection to the battery, and the tranny ground wire.

Main relay problem:
Originally, your main relay produced the normal clicks and, only after disconnecting it, did you notice a problem. This made me think that one or more main relay fuses may have been blown when you disconnected the main relay. Also check the critical ground wire on the thermostat housing because, if it is loose or corroded, the main relay and fuel pump won't work.

Xscort

I don't hear any start clicks at all. I did clean off the little corrosion on battery to be sure and I check the chassis-trans ground. I didn't touch the t-stat ground during the install, but I did look to see if it was still connected. I'll double-by on the grounds again in the morning.

As for the relay, I'll check the fuses again since I connected and disconnected the relay; Although, I made sure I disconnected the battery completely during removal of the relay and inspection of fuel pump connections.

If indeed I do need a new main relay, O'Reillys has a BWR one for $48, Honda OEM is like $45, but it needs to be ordered cuz its not in stock. I'm sure that BWR is sufficient right!?!? I'm a stickler for wanting to put OEM parts. That's all I ever want to purchase and install besides reputable aftermarket.

Former User

If you don't hear any click sound from the starter solenoid, then try jumping the starter switch connector on top of the clutch pedal.

If the main relay fuses and the T-stat ground are fine, then you might consider resoldering your current main relay. Click here to learn how. In addition, here's how to test whether your main relay is bad:

waaBAAH

this post is all over the place. to much jumping around and i am about to send you in a different direction as well. lol

if the tach is jumping up and down it is a sign of low voltage. the inaudiable click sounds liek your starter solenoid trying to enagage but low voltage. the common factor of this is low voltage. you also state farther down that there was corrosion on your battery posts....

if you can get me three volatge readings..

get voltage of your current battery

get voltage of your battery cables (maybe 2 inches from the actall posts)

and battery voltage wile cranking the vehicle. (or in your case "attempting" to crank)

also check your battery posts to make sure they are tight, clean and not broken

Xscort

WaaBaah, it may seem so, but there were so many things that was happening lol. YES my 2nd battery was basically dead, and I eventually figured that was causing the clicks and tach jump. The 1st battery is my original battery that I was using to begin with. After swapping the two, I then rechecked the 1st battery and realized it was completely charged. As for the corrosion, I mentioned that I already cleaned them before and that I was just going to do a reclean for the heck of it to double/triple/quadruple be sure.

Xscort

I pulled out the starter, took like 5 minutes. Question: if it kicks out but doesn't spin, is that a problem or maybe I jumped it wrong??? But I didn't hear it kick out with it in the car.

As for the clutch switch, I can barely get to it. There's (2) of them at the top of the clutch pedal or 1??? I saw 2, but I was able to disconnect 1. I couldn't get enough room to try and jump that 1st one.

HondaWrench

Jumped wrong. You need to jump both copper terminals. If it doesn't kick while in the car it could mean that the power from the ignition switch isn't getting to the starter or just not enough to kick the starter.

First, it sounds like you have a power supply problem. These can cause all sorts of strange symptom and cause you to change the wrong parts.

Former User

As mentioned, tell us how you jumped the starter on your bench. Alternatively, an auto parts store would likely test the starter for you free of charge.

If you have cruise control, then there are two switches at the top of the clutch pedal. The cruise control switch has PNK and BLK wires, whereas the starter switch (see diagram below) has BLU/BLK and BLK wires and is the higher of the two switches: