Need definitive answer A.S.A.P
05-06-2005, 07:19 AM
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Need definitive answer A.S.A.P
Hey guys,
I am sending out an Auto P28 to get converted to manual, raise the rev limiter, lower vtec engagement, and get setup to run the DSM 450's. Is there anything else i should have him do while the ECU is getting chipped ie; other little ECU tweaks? I was gonna have him make the check engine light a shift light but i think that could get annoying unless its set real high so i don't have to see it blink all the time.
Here Come the Questions.
1. Where should i have the rev limit set to( my setup is, I/H/E, d16z6, and then 450cc's)
2. Do i need a resistor box to run the injectors?
3. How does the 1.6 single cam vtec run with Big injectors but no turbo just I/H/E?
Thanks guys i am sending the ECU out today or tomorow and i needed some final info before icould give the guy my specs.
Sean
I am sending out an Auto P28 to get converted to manual, raise the rev limiter, lower vtec engagement, and get setup to run the DSM 450's. Is there anything else i should have him do while the ECU is getting chipped ie; other little ECU tweaks? I was gonna have him make the check engine light a shift light but i think that could get annoying unless its set real high so i don't have to see it blink all the time.
Here Come the Questions.
1. Where should i have the rev limit set to( my setup is, I/H/E, d16z6, and then 450cc's)
2. Do i need a resistor box to run the injectors?
3. How does the 1.6 single cam vtec run with Big injectors but no turbo just I/H/E?
Thanks guys i am sending the ECU out today or tomorow and i needed some final info before icould give the guy my specs.
Sean
05-06-2005, 07:56 AM
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Re: Need definitive answer A.S.A.P (EG_Black_Hatch)
-Uberdata and hondata have options for using the CEL as a shift light, theres nothing to wire.
1. Fuel cut should be 7500...you're not running upgraded internals and you don't want to blow your motor up. Stock is 7500, leave it there.
2. You need a resistor box to run the DSM 450cc injectors
3. Make sure that the basemap that your chipped ECU comes with is set up for 450cc injectors. The ECU has fuel tables for boost and no boost, and so you can run no boost on the same program, it'll just never use the boost values in the table because your MAP sensor won't go that high. Do you know how hondata/uberdata works at all?
1. Fuel cut should be 7500...you're not running upgraded internals and you don't want to blow your motor up. Stock is 7500, leave it there.
2. You need a resistor box to run the DSM 450cc injectors
3. Make sure that the basemap that your chipped ECU comes with is set up for 450cc injectors. The ECU has fuel tables for boost and no boost, and so you can run no boost on the same program, it'll just never use the boost values in the table because your MAP sensor won't go that high. Do you know how hondata/uberdata works at all?
05-06-2005, 07:56 AM
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Re: (EG_Black_Hatch)
1. Where should i have the rev limit set to( my setup is, I/H/E, d16z6, and then 450cc's)
2. Do i need a resistor box to run the injectors?
3. How does the 1.6 single cam vtec run with Big injectors but no turbo just I/H/E?
1. rev like 7800 i don't know
2. i don't know about the resistor box. won't ur car run shitty with big injectors?
3. prob like **** and running pig rich
2. Do i need a resistor box to run the injectors?
3. How does the 1.6 single cam vtec run with Big injectors but no turbo just I/H/E?
1. rev like 7800 i don't know
2. i don't know about the resistor box. won't ur car run shitty with big injectors?
3. prob like **** and running pig rich
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05-06-2005, 08:06 AM
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i am turboing very soon so id rather just throw the injectors in now and save myself some time. Will it really run that shitty? no i am not runnig hondata, or uberdata, im sending the eCU out to someone and they are chipping it for me. So rev limit at 7500 and CEL shift light at like 7200, DSm injectors with resistor box wired as in diagram somewhere on H-T.
05-06-2005, 08:12 AM
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Re: (EG_Black_Hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG_Black_Hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i am turboing very soon so id rather just throw the injectors in now and save myself some time. Will it really run that shitty? no i am not runnig hondata, or uberdata, im sending the eCU out to someone and they are chipping it for me. So rev limit at 7500 and CEL shift light at like 7200, DSm injectors with resistor box wired as in diagram somewhere on H-T. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think that any programs are out there using 450cc injectors that aren't designed for boost as well. Is this person writing you a custom program? What you should do is have them chip the ECU for Uberdata, and then have someone local tune it.
I don't think that any programs are out there using 450cc injectors that aren't designed for boost as well. Is this person writing you a custom program? What you should do is have them chip the ECU for Uberdata, and then have someone local tune it.
05-06-2005, 08:13 AM
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ok thanks for your advice, since the search function is down right now i am pissed because i want someone who has seen and or had a d16 with big injectors and no F/I. I am starting to move away from the Injector install right now. So now im thinking about getting the raised reve limiter, lower vtec engagement, Shift light, auto to manual swap, and launch control set at 3700 Rpm. Anything Else i should have him do while its out. Setup is currently ( i/h/e, little bit of porting here and there.) Thanks again guys
05-06-2005, 08:14 AM
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Re: (EG_Black_Hatch)
Chipping an ECU is worthless IMHO because its designed for a motor that isn't yours. Just get it converted from auto to manual and have them run the stock program.
What kind of fuel management will you be running when you are boosted?
What kind of fuel management will you be running when you are boosted?
05-06-2005, 08:20 AM
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i don't know yet, probably hondata or something with big fuel pump and the DSM 450's that should cover the Fuel issue right? Maybe bigger rail with an adjustable regulator?
05-06-2005, 08:40 AM
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Bauley whats good, What do i have to learn, Lemme guess you know everything and you would like to make people look stupid by showing off your HONDA knowledge. Seriously does everyone on honda-tech have to have the biggest ego. This is why people are afraid to post on honda-tech because people say stupid **** instead of just giving some info or keeping there mouth shut. I believe most of us are hear to learn thats why we ask questions. This is just another person disregaurding questions and just posting criticism. Thanks again bauley you have been an enormous help.
05-06-2005, 08:42 AM
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maybe i was wrong and you are one of the nice people, i apologize i have been jumped on by too many H-T members thinkin there **** don't stink. Srry dude
05-06-2005, 08:42 AM
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Re: (EG_Black_Hatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EG_Black_Hatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bauley whats good, What do i have to learn, Lemme guess you know everything and you would like to make people look stupid by showing off your HONDA knowledge. Seriously does everyone on honda-tech have to have the biggest ego. This is why people are afraid to post on honda-tech because people say stupid **** instead of just giving some info or keeping there mouth shut. I believe most of us are hear to learn thats why we ask questions. This is just another person disregaurding questions and just posting criticism. Thanks again bauley you have been an enormous help.</TD></TR></TABLE>
this is soo true
this is soo true
05-06-2005, 08:46 AM
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thanks caged hatch, you are like the first person to agree. The people who have 10,000 post like to put down anyone with a lower post count. Assuming becuase of ther low amount of posts that they have no knowledge of anything.
05-06-2005, 09:34 AM
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Re: (EG_Black_Hatch)
Alright, i'm going to try and make this as concise as possible so that I don't ramble on about anything and everything reguarding PGM-FI engine management.
Okay, we're talking about using bigger injectors on a stock motor here, right? Well, your car comes stock with 240cc injectors. Believe it or not, your stock injectors are good to about 170 WHP. Now, the most powerful N/A d-series i've seen (with the exception of Bisi's 300WHP crazy carb'ed D15) is this guy making 181 WHP:
That thing has a distributorless ignition system, crazy high compression, and most likely bullet-proof internals. User builthatch on here is making 160 WHP with 12:1 compression, upgraded camshaft and valvetrain, and full bolt ons. Most bolt-on d-series won't make it past the 125 WHP mark, meaning that your stock injectors are OVERKILL for your setup. Crazy isn't it?
The reason people run big injectors is because:
A. They don't want to max out their stock injectors, because theres a possibility that they will fail and the motor will run out of fuel (lean out)
or
B. They are making more power than the stock injectors can handle (aka boosted motors)
450cc injectors are good to about 250 WHP I believe? Somewhere around there. Many turbo D guys are making about ~200 WHP, so this is why 450cc's are the injector of choice for turbo d-series guys. They are cheap, and provide more fuel than the stock 240cc's.
Now, let me get into ECU chipping. Your stock fuel map looks like this (pulled from uberdata)
(Notice all the 0.00 values on the right? Thats because the stock ECU isn't programmed for boost)
This is a table of injector multiplier values (how long the injector stays open). On the Y axis, you have RPM. And on the X axis, you have manifold absolute pressure (mainly depends on how hard your foot is on the gas).
Generally, the stock program has the engine run rich. Ideally, you want a naturally aspirated motor to run at ~13.5:1 Air/Fuel ratio at full throttle, and 14.5:1 under partial throttle and idle. If you run a ratio that is much higher than this (like 16:1) your motor will run lean (not enough fuel), and will eventually blow up. Honda keeps it safe and runs a ratio that is lower than 13.5:1 (i'm not sure the exact figure). The thing is though, leaner = more power, but leaner also = less safe.
Now, when you "chip an ECU" it is usually a guy or a company that has modified the stock program to run leaner, aka less fuel. The problem is though, that the Air/Fuel ratio is affected by your exhaust, intake system, header, fuel pressure, etc. So, when you get a custom chip, you can get a program that will either be too lean (cause damage) or too rich (not optimal power). Every motor is different, so this is why many people choose to use uberdata/hondata, so they can fine tune the Air/Fuel ratio to be just right for their specific setup.
Boosted motors are a whole different story, here is a fuel table designed for 450cc injectors on a boosted D16:
Notice how there are now values in the boost columns? There are still values in the area that the normal ECU covers, so technically you could run this 450cc map without a turbo. The thing with boosted motors is that they tend to run a lot richer than N/A motors. Boosted motors run the in the 12:1 range instead of 13.5:1. Remember what I said though, leaner=more power. So, if you ran this map with 450cc injectors you'd probably be slower than if you ran the stock program with stock injectors.
Most programs out there for 450cc injectors are for boosted motors, and not for naturally aspirated applications. So, if you're going to stay N/A i'd keep your stock injectors and get a number of different chips with different programs on them so you can try out them all and see what works for you. Of course, the BEST alternative would be to get uberdata and have someone fine tune your ECU to YOUR motor...that would end up making the most power.
Did this make any sense at all?
Okay, we're talking about using bigger injectors on a stock motor here, right? Well, your car comes stock with 240cc injectors. Believe it or not, your stock injectors are good to about 170 WHP. Now, the most powerful N/A d-series i've seen (with the exception of Bisi's 300WHP crazy carb'ed D15) is this guy making 181 WHP:
That thing has a distributorless ignition system, crazy high compression, and most likely bullet-proof internals. User builthatch on here is making 160 WHP with 12:1 compression, upgraded camshaft and valvetrain, and full bolt ons. Most bolt-on d-series won't make it past the 125 WHP mark, meaning that your stock injectors are OVERKILL for your setup. Crazy isn't it?
The reason people run big injectors is because:
A. They don't want to max out their stock injectors, because theres a possibility that they will fail and the motor will run out of fuel (lean out)
or
B. They are making more power than the stock injectors can handle (aka boosted motors)
450cc injectors are good to about 250 WHP I believe? Somewhere around there. Many turbo D guys are making about ~200 WHP, so this is why 450cc's are the injector of choice for turbo d-series guys. They are cheap, and provide more fuel than the stock 240cc's.
Now, let me get into ECU chipping. Your stock fuel map looks like this (pulled from uberdata)
(Notice all the 0.00 values on the right? Thats because the stock ECU isn't programmed for boost)
This is a table of injector multiplier values (how long the injector stays open). On the Y axis, you have RPM. And on the X axis, you have manifold absolute pressure (mainly depends on how hard your foot is on the gas).
Generally, the stock program has the engine run rich. Ideally, you want a naturally aspirated motor to run at ~13.5:1 Air/Fuel ratio at full throttle, and 14.5:1 under partial throttle and idle. If you run a ratio that is much higher than this (like 16:1) your motor will run lean (not enough fuel), and will eventually blow up. Honda keeps it safe and runs a ratio that is lower than 13.5:1 (i'm not sure the exact figure). The thing is though, leaner = more power, but leaner also = less safe.
Now, when you "chip an ECU" it is usually a guy or a company that has modified the stock program to run leaner, aka less fuel. The problem is though, that the Air/Fuel ratio is affected by your exhaust, intake system, header, fuel pressure, etc. So, when you get a custom chip, you can get a program that will either be too lean (cause damage) or too rich (not optimal power). Every motor is different, so this is why many people choose to use uberdata/hondata, so they can fine tune the Air/Fuel ratio to be just right for their specific setup.
Boosted motors are a whole different story, here is a fuel table designed for 450cc injectors on a boosted D16:
Notice how there are now values in the boost columns? There are still values in the area that the normal ECU covers, so technically you could run this 450cc map without a turbo. The thing with boosted motors is that they tend to run a lot richer than N/A motors. Boosted motors run the in the 12:1 range instead of 13.5:1. Remember what I said though, leaner=more power. So, if you ran this map with 450cc injectors you'd probably be slower than if you ran the stock program with stock injectors.
Most programs out there for 450cc injectors are for boosted motors, and not for naturally aspirated applications. So, if you're going to stay N/A i'd keep your stock injectors and get a number of different chips with different programs on them so you can try out them all and see what works for you. Of course, the BEST alternative would be to get uberdata and have someone fine tune your ECU to YOUR motor...that would end up making the most power.
Did this make any sense at all?