00 Si

I have the opportunity to get a B18C1 with a 8psi Jackson Racing Supercharger in trade for my B16A2 with a turbo kit. Which would you guys rather have?

DragII

JRSC suck and don't make power

00 Si

But if I got a Drag III, I would have to buy a new intake manifold to replace the supercharger and then buy a Drag III kit. I don't want to do that. And they might not make a lot of power but they are more reliable than a turbo.


[Modified by 00 Si, 10:58 PM 8/21/2001]

DragII

wowowowowowow....THAT IS ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE, AND WHOEVER TOLD YOU THAT WAS TALKING OUT OF THERE ***.

00 Si

and just how so is that? please set me straight then.

DragII

W/ a supercharger, boost is belt driven therefore you are boosting 24/7, w/ turbo you drive like NA until you get on it then you boost....MUCH Less stress on your engine...Superchargers generate far more heat, and are notorious for both cooking your engine, and falling out of there effective range quickly.

Turbos are often said to blow motors, it's simply not true...just because one dumbass tryed to boost 10psi on stock internals w/ no tuning, and blew his **** up, that does not mean that turbos kill engines...Dumbass's that don't respect there set up kill engines

00 Si

sorry, but i disagree big time that supercharges cause more heat. you don't see a supercharger glowing red after a run like you do a turbo. the point of me saying that a supercharger is safer from the stand point that the tuning is far less. you can put a supercharger on the car and not really have to worry about it blowing w/o the proper tuning. if i put a turbo on my car, it has to be tuning perfecly (almost anyway) in order for it not to blow

GSR_Civic

wtf.....with turbos....u get tha boost when u need it....with superchargers u get tha boost all ****** day long

which one is more strain on tha engine.....take a guess

spyder

OKAY! BACK to Superchargers 101!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Superchargers, at least of the JRSC design DO NOT boost all the time!!! Whoever told you this is on crack. If you look at a diagram of the construction of the Jackson SC, you will see that there is a bypass valve that bleeds off pressure during normal driving. Only when you are heavy on the throttle does that valve close and SC begins boosting. Yes the SC is being DRIVEN 24/7, but it is NOT boosting the whole time.

If you feel that I'm wrong, go talk to the guys over at Endyn www.theoldone.com , and they will be more than happy to set you straight.

DragII

bypass or no bypass, SC still strains the engine harder, you fugg around w/ this subject all day long and come to no end...this is the facts

SC=just fine if tuned right, although will not make as much power

Turbo=Just fine if tuned right....

YOU WILL BLOW YOU MOTOR IF YOU DON'T TAKE PROPER PERCAUTIONS W/ YOUR SET UP.

I have been turbo for over a year w/ not a single problem....so don't tell me turbo is unrelieable...that is simply not true.

spyder

I agree that the SC strains the engine more, my point was that with the SC you are not under continual boost.

If you will take a look at the info about the Endyn-modified JRSC http://www.theoldone.com/sc/jackson-upgrade.html you will see that it took a full-interior, near-stock D16 powered car into the mid 12's, and that's without intercooling. Not too shabby.

Now the full Endyn SC which was never released for production (due to business problems at Endyn), that was one bad-*** SC. It took a B16A to peak at over 400hp and over 350 ft-lbs of torque. It had better than 200 ft-lbs of torque below 2,000 RPM. Once again, this was without the intercooler. With it, the numbers would be higher. http://www.theoldone.com/sc/faq.html

Now maybe there are turbos out there that can do better than that, I don't know, turbos aren't really my thing, but that's a hell of a lot of performance for a supercharger...




[Modified by spyder, 12:00 PM 8/22/2001]

Mike D

Superchargers rely on your engine to create boost. Because of this, essentially, the blower ia always in use. However, this doesnt mean you are wlays at full boost.

turbo's on the other hand run off exhaust gases so they take a while to spool and create boost. Therefore the car is quite tame unitl boost kicks in. Now how fast a turbo spools depends on many factors such as size of turbo and teh size of the down pipe....among other things.

Now some might say superchargers are safe and some might safe turbo's are safe. what you hace to understand (00 SI) is that boost is boost. Whether you have 6 psi coming from a blower or 6 psi from turbo, it is still 6 psi of air being forced into your engine no matter how you llok at it.

Blown engines come from poor tuning. Now some engine blocks(stock that is) can handle more than others. So with the integrity of the engine also comes into play.

Take the wonderful JZA-80 engine form a supra. They have featured guys in Turbo magazine running up to 28 psi on stock internals. Now, with extensive tuning, this is accomplished. This is just about the limit of these engines. But if you gave some moron this engine pushing 20 psi, he could very easily blow the ****** up. So excellent tuning goes a long way.

Now, there isnt a stock honda engine that can handle 30 psi of boost. But to get whatever honda engine to the same structual limits, proprer tuning is required.

I personally like turbo's. More potential.

so teh moral of this story....If you tune it, they will come(the horses that is)

Mike

bigTom

yea... a supercharger can make power... but once u push that much power as u are saying... around 400hp... its not going to be reliable anymore... sc are limited to how much power u can make... 400hp huh? a car here was making 650hp on the streets with a turbo... it was also a b18c... u tell me which has more potential... and turbo u can turno basically on and off as u wish...

as for endyn... it seems he has a lot of useful info on his site, i would take it though with a grain of salt unless u know him in person... as far as i am concerned he is a fraud(but lets keep this on topic with the sc...)

spyder

Okay, now I get to ask a question. If I boost my engine (not sure which engine I'm gonna use yet or whether it will be SC or turbo), what internals will I need to build in order to raise the level of boost above "normal"? I've already figured forged pistons and connecting rods, but I don't know about the valve-train and anything else... Any input is welcome.

bigTom

if u want EVEN more boost... u would need to sleeve the block and get a standalone ecu... and while ur at it might as well change the whole valvetrain... since it apart...

spyder

thanks for the answer, but need to clarify.... change the whole valve-train to....what?

Mike D

It really depends on how much boost you want to run. Usually if you were to run low boost, like 5 psi, you really want have to change the stock internals. What you will need to do is make sure you have the extra fuel needed. Once again, you will need to tune your engine so that the air fuel ratio is safe. Also an upgraded cooling system and well as an oil cooler never hurt anyones engine. So there are few things to look into. Heat is a very bad thing in boosted engines, any engine for that matter.

Now if you become more ambitous, a stronger bottom end will be needed. i.e rods and slug. and as your boost increases, so will teh need for fuel. im not what the limits of honda cranks are but that would be another peice to look into.

as far as your valvetrain goes, you might have to upgrade your valves due to the extra heat being created. Your stock valves might burn up when boost becomes more than moderate(at what psi i dont know). And as long as you are not revving beyond your stock vavletrains limits, new springs and retainers wont be an issue.


by the way dont forget about the "other" stuff like suspension, brakes, tranny...etc.

spyder

Yeah, thanks, I'm keeping the other stuff in mind. I read an article once about how a lot of people just get "go-fast" mods and don't think about handling or braking. I've decided that my car's gonna be good all around, but I can't upgrade everything at once...

bhcvc

I'd personally go with a B18A/B or a B20B/Z swap for FI. They're a lot cheaper than B18C's and you can use the money you save from not getting the B18C on building the bottom end (pistons, rods, and sleeves). As for which turbo...it depends on what your goals are. Personally, these would be my choices...

street/daily driver: Greddy TD05H-18G GSR kit w/ intercooler (easily made to fit non-VTEC motors)

daily driver/weekend drag/just want more damn power: either an XS T3/T4 based kit (easy to make cuz the ex mani's are easy to find and just get your own w/g, bov, etc.) or a Top Fuel K3T kit (Top Fuel has a kit specifically for the B20).

I'm more a fan of Garrett turbos (XS uses Garrett) than the Turbonetics turbos. NOt saying they're bad, but I've known of too many cases where turbonetics turbos failed and I'm too unlucky to take the chance that it won't happen to me. Plus, their deltagate w/g is known to not be the most stable w/g. Don't forget you'll need to upgrade your fuel system, possibly your ignition system, and a standalone ECU like Hondata would be very good to have with fuel and ignition maps tuned to your specific setup.

spyder

as far as reliability is concerned, Endyn has had their prototype SC (the one they never released) on an ITR for 3 years and so far have had absolutely no problems with it...

I stand corrected. I DID say that turbos weren't my thing and that I didn't know whether there were more powerful turbos out there or not... now I know that there are.

As far as Endyn is concerned... say what you want about them, but every car I've seen that had anything worked on by Endyn (SC, headwork, blockwork, etc...) was really damn fast. that's what speaks the most to me...

The other point that has not been mentioned yet is the flatter powerband of an SC'd car. I know that proper launching technique and practice can compensate for turbo lag (which, of course varries by the size of the turbo), but there's just something I like about having that power instantly in the low end without having to wait for a turbo to spool.




[Modified by spyder, 3:04 PM 8/22/2001]

DragII

with all due respect that endyne charger may, or may not have been produced, and it's results can not be verified because it was never made available for public scruteny....

I would not use the endyne charger as the basis of any arguement

spyder

The final production version WAS actually made, but they decided not to start mass producing them. As to the results, they were made available for public scrutiny, there was an article up on hybrid.honda-perf.org a while back (can't find it right now, their search page is broken) who made an appointment to go see the Type-R with the SC. he was totally blown away by it, and wrote like a 5 page article on it.

When they installed the Endyn charger in the Type-R, they had to disable VTEC because it had problems with the timing. but it STILL accelerated so fiercely in the first three gears that they couldn't shift before hitting the rev limiter. If they hadn't had a J&S, they would have blown that engine to hell and back...

DragII

IMO it is still hear say...but I am content to agree to disagree w/ you on that one

CRX_VTEC

Why would Endyn spend all that time and money on research and development then come up with a "production version" and then not produce it? How many companies or tuners dont want to make money? Not any! Its like knowing the winning lottery numbers and then not buying a ticket... it just doesnt make sense. I think thats so weak. Also if they had to disable the VTEC and had timing problems..... then how can this be a " production version"? I personally think Endyn is a fraud but thats just my 2 cents. As for the SC vs. TURBO... I'd personally go with the turbo. I've had both, and turbo's just have alot more potential. As far as bependablility... it all boils down to what Hennessey said..TUNING.


[Modified by CRX_VTEC, 4:28 PM 8/22/2001]

spyder

That works