NJSPEEDREVS

I'm a newb..so my 2 cents might not be worth much..I'm older (36), so I've had a little more time to amass my funds...I have a '87 930 and a '99 C5, but my daily driver is an '94 eg hatchie w/b18c1..by far the most fun of all to drive; gotta respect the hatch...Bro, do your thing w/the 944...don't let them hate on ya...again, not bragging about my cars, just adding a perspective...btw, this site rocks, i sold my old '93 dx in 10 mins on here just by answering a post...outstanding!

951

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NJSPEEDREVS &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a '87 930 and a '99 C5, </TD></TR></TABLE>

jealous, thinking about it, i would have kept a 13 sec hatch over the N/A 944 too.

Jet Phi

i would of just kept the hatch

The Internet Tough Guy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 951 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what jwn7 is referring to is a STOCK 951, not upgraded, just running more boost.</TD></TR></TABLE>
heheh.... unknowingly running more boost.

i agree that the thread starter thinks he's better than us just because of the name on his car, but a lot of cars in this forum will destroy his on a track. isn't that what really matters? and who cares if the 944 and civic hatches are ugly. they're both cars that in stock form aren't all that great, but have gobs of potiential, and speed never goes out of style. i like both cars, and wouldn't mind having either one.

86 Porsche 951: 2,899 lbs./247HP = 11.73 lbs per HP &lt;- #s for a stock 951
2,010lbs./210hp = 9.57 lbs per hp &lt;- #s for a modded hatch

i'd like to see some numbers for a modded 951. comparing a modded car to one that's stock is moot in my eyes, because that stock car still has room to be modded. anyway you look at it, the 951 has more potiential than a civic hatch (which still has a lot and i still love it).

951

i/e/intercooler, new wastegate, chips and cams(edit:72# injectors too)@ 18 psi... squeeze that out of a civic without internal mods, or admit your civics are not race cars in stock form(or anything close to stock form)

B18C5-EH2

jwn7 and 951:

I love a good discussion. I'll try to entertian you both with some replies.



Here goes...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">tell me when you get a dyno chart.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This was last February in 2003:





Mods: 1998 USDM B18C5 - 100% STOCK. 60K miles
AEM CAI for 99-00 Civic Si
DC JDM 4-1 Header (2.5'' collector)
CarSound 2.5'' Cat
Tanabe Super Medallion Racing Spec exhaust for 1992-1995 Civic hatch
Skunk 2 cam gears
B&M FPR
Kenji-Spec P28
Freshly Installed V-AFC
Fresh Oil Change - Mobil 1 5W30 Synthetic

Keep in mind that the internals are 100% bone stock. Not even different cams, etc. This is in a car that weighs 2010lbs. with room for even more weight loss. I still have an airbag steering wheel, both bumper support beams, stock heavy battery which will be swapped in favor of a 12lb. one, etc.

(Also those pics are old and don't have the C/F hood nor 8.5lb. Spoon wheels)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">thanks for your "guess" too.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So my "guess" was my figure of 176whp +the 20% driveline loss. That gave me 210hp at the crank.



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">what jwn7 is referring to is a STOCK 951, not upgraded, just running more boost.
lightly modded(i/e/new ECU) these cars are over 300whp easy.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes boost is always awesome in that regard regardless of what car it's in. Up the boost, up the whp. You would need to make at least 240whp in order to get the same power:weight ratio as a hatch like mine, and mine is still unboosted and 500% more reliable. Again tune-ups are only needed every 30K, and other than that there's nothing these things need other than coolant and fresh oil.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">BTW, what honda that you know pulls .96 g's on the pad stock??(besides the NSX)</TD></TR></TABLE>

How much did that Porsche list for when new?

Also I'd guess perhaps a Honda S2000 might come close, but I don't feel like looking that up right now.

For refernce a Ford SVT Fucos pulls .91 on the skidpad stock, but does that mean it's a bad-*** car?



<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ive been in some fast civics, and i own a fast porsche, its all the same.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

My Civic is not fast really. It's still a bone sock Honda engine with normal bolt-ons. The boosted ones like mine easily run low 12's.

Do you have any timeslips for your car?

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">86 Porsche 951: 2,899 lbs./247HP = 11.73 lbs per HP &lt;- #s for a stock 951
2,010lbs./210hp = 9.57 lbs per hp &lt;- #s for a modded hatch
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes I know, but the topic was originally about a guy who sold a modded hatch for a stock NON-TURBO 944, not a 951.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i'd like to see some numbers for a modded 951. comparing a modded car to one that's stock is moot in my eyes, because that stock car still has room to be modded.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well again my Civic is just one of the modded cars here. There are plenty of boosted ones here that lay down 300whp, 400whp, and some even 500whp.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">anyway you look at it, the 951 has more potiential than a civic hatch </TD></TR></TABLE>

In what regard? I've not seen any 8 second 1/4 mile Porsche 951s. There are a good number of unibodied FF Honda Civics in the 8s with boposted 4 cylinders in them.

Road racing?

Tough call as I doubt you'd get equal drivers and good examples of each car on a road course.

"Potential" is a tough one. People have different interests such as drag, road course, auto-X, highway, etc. I can think that out of those the Civic definately has the clear advantage in at least two listed there.

I enjoy a good debate - this is fun.

951

not that i would know which is better for road racing, but if its any indication, on open track days i see many more 944/951's than FF civics at beaverun.

edit: i believe they sold for about 30k in the 80's

B18C5-EH2

I'll be back in this in a bit after I pick my Corgi up from the vet, but let me say this real quick:

Posting up some random 951/944 turbo's dyno chart does little to advance this debate.

I'll run over to the Forced Induction Forum and grab up some charts from guys with 18psi and a FMIC, etc. and we can go back and forth.

Your point is that the Porsche is "stock" mostly, but what you also need to think of is that they are also WAY more expensive to begin with and more expensive to maintain.

I can buy a $2,000.00 awesome-bodied hatch, add in a $3,000.00 Integra GS-R swap and throw in a good turbo with Hondata for maybe another $4,000.00 (just a quick guess) and on sock internals run a safe 12psi and easily make 270whp or so in a 2100lb. car...and run 11's.

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 951 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not that i would know which is better for road racing, but if its any indication, on open track days i see many more 944/951's than FF civics at beaverun.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You're at the wrong track I think.

Try Virginia International Raceway (VIR) on an open track day.

951

puts foot in mouth i think we're going to have to agree that, while the 951 is a more powerful per bolt on, the civic is cheaper, im gonna say they're even! hell. they're the best two manufacturers in the world in my opinion. its like playing musical chairs with extra chairs, everybody wins!

951

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I can buy a $2,000.00 awesome-bodied hatch, add in a $3,000.00 Integra GS-R swap and throw in a good turbo with Hondata for maybe another $4,000.00 (just a quick guess) and on sock internals run a safe 12psi and easily make 270whp or so in a 2100lb. car...and run 11's.</TD></TR></TABLE>

without LSD(extra 700$ or so for a nice one i think?)you're going to be spinning tire like its going out of style . i dont drag race either, im more concerned with handling and brakes(dont get me started on how *** honda brakes are ) but anyways all that together is a few thousand more than i payed for my car, and the mods i listed for the dyno wont be more than 3k at the most.

the three of us jacked this thread so hard. haha.

hybrider

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Spoken like a true elitist Porsche driving *******. Wow you've had the car for how long and you're already an elitist?

and now you're slower too.

Nice "upgrade" y0!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

spoken like your average honda owner. how much money did you dump into you're civic ? simple question. And your talking about whipping on STOCK 20 year old n/a porsches :SIGH: Good job buddy.

Nice pickup btw

951

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes I know, but the topic was originally about a guy who sold a modded hatch for a stock NON-TURBO 944, not a 951.


In what regard? I've not seen any 8 second 1/4 mile Porsche 951s. There are a good number of unibodied FF Honda Civics in the 8s with boposted 4 cylinders in them.

Road racing?


</TD></TR></TABLE>

because nobody is dumb enough to think the 951 is made for drag racing...the drivetrain on that car is incapable of putting up with 600+ whp...this car is a road racing car. period. i have an article from car and driver or something from '84 wherein they decided that the 944 was the best handling car out of the prelude(or maybe the accord) a ferarri quatrovolve, a 911 and some other high priced performance car.but those things stick so well, and theres no substitute for 50/50 balancing. BTW the 951 is a 4 cylinder too.

DemonHippie

Wow. I was thinking about getting a Porsche too. Get ready for the opposite of good old Honda reliability.
Oh man, though. Congratulations!

B18C5-EH2

Agreed, but isn't that what could be seen as another advantage of the Civic? It can do a good bit of drag, road racing, and auto-X.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the drivetrain on that car is incapable of putting up with 600+ whp...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well stock Honda trannies are not reknown for being able to support 600whp without any problems.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this car is a road racing car. period.</TD></TR></TABLE>

The 944? Okay I'll play along. I would like to drive one now that I'm familiar with how my own car drives, but I'd venture to say that 150hp with 2600lbs. would not be too dazzling on a road course. I guess ANY car is fun on a road course, but hat I'm saying is that just because it's a RWD and a Porsche doesn't make it a "road racing" car IMO.

Is it not safe to say that the 944 was offered up as a more affordable Porsche to those who would not normally be able to afford them? I'm sure they made efforts to make it handle well, but to call it a road race car? I don't know about that...

I do know that stock Civics are economy cars to begin with

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have an article from car and driver or something from '84 wherein they decided that the 944 was the best handling car out of the prelude(or maybe the accord) a ferarri quatrovolve, a 911 and some other high priced performance car.but those things stick so well .</TD></TR></TABLE>

Okay but what was the pricing for the Porsche vs. the Honda? The 84 Prelude was a carb'd 12-valve with roughly 120hp or so and I'm sure it was on some shitty tires too. I think that the fact that C&D even compared the Prelude to the Porsche is a testament of how well Honda does with such a platform being very inexpensive.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">and theres no substitute for 50/50 balancing. BTW the 951 is a 4 cylinder too</TD></TR></TABLE>

I agree. If I wanted 50/50 though I'd build a Miata or an AE86 Toyota and start with a much lighter chassis and a more reliable powertrain that requires less money to maintain.



Also if we're trying to throw in totally different cars such as the 951 (do you remember the 944 we began talking about 4 pages ago?) why not throw in the Honda S2000? 50/50, kick-*** handling, and a cheaper base price than any Porsche when speaking relatively after you figure in the economy during the relase of the respective cars.

The S2000 is cheaper than the Boxter S and performs nearly identical in every category, and I'd put my money on the S2000 in terms of which one's engine and tranny will last longer and require less money for upkeep.

I respect Porsche. They have one of the most storied racing heritages in history for a reason. One of my dream cars (besides a Lotus Exige with a K20A Type R engine) is a Porsche 911 Turbo or a GT2.

But my realistic "dream" car would have to be the hatchback sitting in my driveway. It is 100% paid for and has taken trips to the dragstrip, auto-Xs, road trips, dily driving all at 8500rpm or so with not one single engine problem EVER in 3 years. I cannot think of too many engines that can stand up to the abuse that these B series take day in and day out while making the most hp per liter N/A than ahy other engines.

I'll agree to disagree I suppose

xerox445

mabey im dumb, but wouldnt a early 90's miata accomplish the same thing as the porsche on the "road track"....

B18C5-EH2

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xerox445 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">mabey im dumb, but wouldnt a early 90's miata accomplish the same thing as the porsche on the "road track"....</TD></TR></TABLE>

It would, and that's why I posted what I did about the Miata in my post above.

It could do so for way cheaper and more reliably than a 944 too.

Hell you can find the early 1989 Miatas for next to nothing and then swap in the late model 1.8L Miata engine and even 6-speed tranny. I know for a fact that a worked Miata could be had for under $5,000.00 and I think it'd romp on a N/A 944 all day every day on a road course, auto-X course, etc.

Then again all of this is driver dependant too. A great car isn't **** without a good driver.

The Internet Tough Guy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B18C5-EH2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I respect Porsche. They have one of the most storied racing heritages in history for a reason. One of my dream cars (besides a Lotus Exige with a K20A Type R engine) is a Porsche 911 Turbo or a GT2.

But my realistic "dream" car would have to be the hatchback sitting in my driveway.

I'll agree to disagree I suppose </TD></TR></TABLE>

exactly. if i had the money, i'd take a porsche over the honda any day. but i don't... so a honda is a realistic, practical, and still hella fun car with a lot of potiential to own.

drag racing a ff car is almost as dumb as drifting one in my opinion. but i say drag racing is stupid anyway, other than to see how your engine is doing it's job, and become a better driver. but then just get to a road race course to do the same. and as you said, any car is fun on a circuit, regardless of powerlevel, drivetrain layout, or handling capabilities. hell i bet i'd have a blast in a 70 hp geo metro on laguna seca. but not as much fun as a gt2. that car is a whole different conversation... oh those brakes give me wood.

again, i love both cars, but the price tag of the porsche is it's only disadvantage to a honda.

i wish i had more to say, but you just about said everything i had in mind tom.

matt98hb

or for the miata, you can just pay 7-8k and have the v8 monster miata set up....supension, engine, roll cage, internals....everything....not too mention it's already a rear wheel drive car....the 5.0 fits perfectly and the miatas were set up that way on purpose by the manufacturers for the conversion. and you still have room for a supercharger if you're still not satisfied with that much torque/hp at the wheels...

b16si

You should have kept your hatch. In my opinion. And I hope yougot some cash out of the deal those things arent worth that much and it could use a paint job. Im not talking trash just giving my opinion.

TheJediMex

i like it

nodoubt

nice