ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar??
05-07-2007, 10:25 AM
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ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar??
I am soon hoping to install a front sway bar on my car. I already have a 23mm ITR bar in the rear. I bought a 24mm ITR Front Sway when I bought my rear, but after doing lots and lots of reading (and searching!), it seems like an EX/Si 21mm bar would be more suited to the neutral handling I want.
My basic question boils down to: How much effort is it worth going through to get an EX bar when I already have an ITR bar ready to go? I want neutral handling ultimately, but would rather lean towards understeer than oversteer. Thanks!
My basic question boils down to: How much effort is it worth going through to get an EX bar when I already have an ITR bar ready to go? I want neutral handling ultimately, but would rather lean towards understeer than oversteer. Thanks!
05-07-2007, 10:44 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (JMelt4)
Well, that 22mm (have measured - not 23mm) on the back will always throw you out and unless you are on the track and well dialed in you might want to watch your ***,, because it will be handed to you.
I have the 24mm (GSR) with 90degree mounts on the front of my EG6 and it does just fine with the 19mm Neuspeed rear, all with polyurethane bushings and all support bars.
I also have the 22mm ITR on the shelf and have had it on the car, but you had better have the Beaks system or another beef-up or you will shatter the rear sub-frame to all hell. Don't believe me, try it. You and your welder will be having an intimate conversation soon about how to piece your baby back together at your expense and his humour.
But the one thing that gets most people in trouble is not having everything in proper order, i.e., ride height, spring rate, camber -(proper 4 wheel alignment), bushings, braided lines, tire & wheel size (increase or decrease of rotating mass, etc.) and all out balance,,, and the most important; driver experience and how well his head is together when driving.
But to directly answer your question - you could certainly get around real well on the street with a dialed in mindset &/set up with the 24front/22rear. With a good balance of all and a not too aggressive driving habits you could be well planted.
Just don't flog it unless you know what you are doing.
I have the 24mm (GSR) with 90degree mounts on the front of my EG6 and it does just fine with the 19mm Neuspeed rear, all with polyurethane bushings and all support bars.
I also have the 22mm ITR on the shelf and have had it on the car, but you had better have the Beaks system or another beef-up or you will shatter the rear sub-frame to all hell. Don't believe me, try it. You and your welder will be having an intimate conversation soon about how to piece your baby back together at your expense and his humour.
But the one thing that gets most people in trouble is not having everything in proper order, i.e., ride height, spring rate, camber -(proper 4 wheel alignment), bushings, braided lines, tire & wheel size (increase or decrease of rotating mass, etc.) and all out balance,,, and the most important; driver experience and how well his head is together when driving.
But to directly answer your question - you could certainly get around real well on the street with a dialed in mindset &/set up with the 24front/22rear. With a good balance of all and a not too aggressive driving habits you could be well planted.
Just don't flog it unless you know what you are doing.
05-07-2007, 11:00 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (Cookie)
Wow, thanks for the awesome response....
My street/track set-up is:
GC (OTS Rates)
KYB AGX
22mm ITR Rear Sway w/BRK
Falken Azenis
Brembo Blank discs
HPS Pads
SS Lines
Stock Rear Drums
I'm currently running factory alignment specs on my toe, and have been thinking about a camber kit even though I know my drop adds enough neg. camber. I just attended my first HPDE yesterday and had an absolute blast but learned that I have a lot to learn!
Anymore insight into Ex vs. ITR front sways?
My street/track set-up is:
GC (OTS Rates)
KYB AGX
22mm ITR Rear Sway w/BRK
Falken Azenis
Brembo Blank discs
HPS Pads
SS Lines
Stock Rear Drums
I'm currently running factory alignment specs on my toe, and have been thinking about a camber kit even though I know my drop adds enough neg. camber. I just attended my first HPDE yesterday and had an absolute blast but learned that I have a lot to learn!
Anymore insight into Ex vs. ITR front sways?
05-07-2007, 11:10 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (JMelt4)
i have a gsr 24mm sway in the front and a 23mm jdm itr sway in the rear. it handles very well and is very stiff. its pretty neutral with a bit of oversteer but if its understeer you want 22mm rear and 21mm front should be just what you want.
05-07-2007, 11:11 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (Cookie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cookie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
and how well his head is together when driving.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
do you mean literally as in how hard he is concentrating on driving or something else?
Not trying to be a smart *** by the way.
and how well his head is together when driving.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
do you mean literally as in how hard he is concentrating on driving or something else?
Not trying to be a smart *** by the way.
05-07-2007, 11:11 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (Cream)
Ha ha, I love that I was answered by Cookie and Cream. You guys should tag team other threads.
I was under the impression that 24mm FRONT and 22 or 23mm REAR would be more understeery than neutral?
Especially after reading this article: http://www.jdmuniverse.com/for...ybars
I was under the impression that 24mm FRONT and 22 or 23mm REAR would be more understeery than neutral?
Especially after reading this article: http://www.jdmuniverse.com/for...ybars
05-07-2007, 11:21 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (JMelt4)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMelt4 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ha ha, I love that I was answered by Cookie and Cream. You guys should tag team other threads.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
YEAH! that is damn funny.
Good spot!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
YEAH! that is damn funny.
Good spot!
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05-07-2007, 11:24 AM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (dwnsthGABOY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dwnsthGABOY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
do you mean literally as in how hard he is concentrating on driving or something else?
Not trying to be a smart *** by the way.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No,, it's cool. I'm pretty resilient. I meant, we can all get out there on the street and get into situations with another jagoff that wants to test our skills and not be in the best frame of mind. Like the way we are emotionally, physically, psychologically. A fight with a g/f can send us guys in the other direction!! ( AND THAT,, is a whole other freakin' story!!! lol)
do you mean literally as in how hard he is concentrating on driving or something else?
Not trying to be a smart *** by the way.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No,, it's cool. I'm pretty resilient. I meant, we can all get out there on the street and get into situations with another jagoff that wants to test our skills and not be in the best frame of mind. Like the way we are emotionally, physically, psychologically. A fight with a g/f can send us guys in the other direction!! ( AND THAT,, is a whole other freakin' story!!! lol)
05-07-2007, 12:51 PM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (JMelt4)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JMelt4 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ha ha, I love that I was answered by Cookie and Cream. You guys should tag team other threads.
I was under the impression that 24mm FRONT and 22 or 23mm REAR would be more understeery than neutral?
Especially after reading this article: http://www.jdmuniverse.com/for...ybars</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you cut/paste that article or maybe just the pertenent info,,, I don't want to login to another freaking site.
You should see my favorites! It's uncontrollably off the damn hook.
I was under the impression that 24mm FRONT and 22 or 23mm REAR would be more understeery than neutral?
Especially after reading this article: http://www.jdmuniverse.com/for...ybars</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can you cut/paste that article or maybe just the pertenent info,,, I don't want to login to another freaking site.
You should see my favorites! It's uncontrollably off the damn hook.
05-07-2007, 01:21 PM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (Cookie)
That's strange that you can't access it, because I don't have to log-in to see it. Here is the paragraph in the article that is the most relevant to the convo:
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cookie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Before you go running out and bolting up any sway bar, you should first do some research and "size up" the sway bar you'll need. Remember, the size of the sway bar determines the force applied to your suspension so you should first decide on the sizes for front and rear and then buy the corresponding components. For cars with stiff springs, a small sway bar may not have much of an effect because there is so little movement in the LCAs to begin with, but cars with soft springs won't want to rely solely on thick sway bars as the suspension will not complement itself. That being stated cars with stiff, or race suspension, will get the biggest benefit of thicker bars and street car owners hoping to tighten up their suspension an get away with smaller sway bars. Bigger will not always be better for every application, and the size difference between available front and rear sway bars will affect vehicle handling dynamics. Front wheel drive cars will have a tendency to understeer from the factory. The understeer can be countered by having a larger sway bar in the back, or in the event of using small sway bars, having a small sway bar in the back and no sway bar in the front. Be careful with the amount of sway bar you're using because too much sway bar in the back compared to the front will cause oversteer and sometimes snap oversteer. Arbitrarily changing or adding sway bars can make a vehicle dangerous to operate as there will be less stable turning - you'll either have too little (under) steering and have to slow down for turns, or too much (over) steering and either have the back end come around first or turn straight into the curb. For cars wishing to keep the understeering nature of their cars but hoping to tighten up the suspension can use a combination like Si factory sway bars front and rear. For more neutral handling, and EX front bar (which is smaller than the Si front) can be paired with the Si rear to bring more balance to the under and oversteering effects. Likewise, a front Si bar with a rear Integra GSR or Type R (or even Civic Type R) will be more like "neutral" handling but that much tighter. Keeping the balance between sway bar sizes will keep the balance of the car the way you intend. Having hem proportionately larger on either end will give you your handling characteristics while the overall sizes will determine how responsive (tight) the suspension will be. Sizing the sway bars is the primary importance when considering adding sway bars. Once you have decided how you want the car to react it will then be time to select components based upon available factory (or aftermarket) sized sways and their compatibility to Civic LCAs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cookie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Before you go running out and bolting up any sway bar, you should first do some research and "size up" the sway bar you'll need. Remember, the size of the sway bar determines the force applied to your suspension so you should first decide on the sizes for front and rear and then buy the corresponding components. For cars with stiff springs, a small sway bar may not have much of an effect because there is so little movement in the LCAs to begin with, but cars with soft springs won't want to rely solely on thick sway bars as the suspension will not complement itself. That being stated cars with stiff, or race suspension, will get the biggest benefit of thicker bars and street car owners hoping to tighten up their suspension an get away with smaller sway bars. Bigger will not always be better for every application, and the size difference between available front and rear sway bars will affect vehicle handling dynamics. Front wheel drive cars will have a tendency to understeer from the factory. The understeer can be countered by having a larger sway bar in the back, or in the event of using small sway bars, having a small sway bar in the back and no sway bar in the front. Be careful with the amount of sway bar you're using because too much sway bar in the back compared to the front will cause oversteer and sometimes snap oversteer. Arbitrarily changing or adding sway bars can make a vehicle dangerous to operate as there will be less stable turning - you'll either have too little (under) steering and have to slow down for turns, or too much (over) steering and either have the back end come around first or turn straight into the curb. For cars wishing to keep the understeering nature of their cars but hoping to tighten up the suspension can use a combination like Si factory sway bars front and rear. For more neutral handling, and EX front bar (which is smaller than the Si front) can be paired with the Si rear to bring more balance to the under and oversteering effects. Likewise, a front Si bar with a rear Integra GSR or Type R (or even Civic Type R) will be more like "neutral" handling but that much tighter. Keeping the balance between sway bar sizes will keep the balance of the car the way you intend. Having hem proportionately larger on either end will give you your handling characteristics while the overall sizes will determine how responsive (tight) the suspension will be. Sizing the sway bars is the primary importance when considering adding sway bars. Once you have decided how you want the car to react it will then be time to select components based upon available factory (or aftermarket) sized sways and their compatibility to Civic LCAs.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
05-07-2007, 01:41 PM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (JMelt4)
If you want a more understeer feel, go with full ITR front + back bars. I've tracked and autoxed the ITR, and this setup will give you the safety of predictable understeer without plowing through every tight corner. Why not just start with this setup since you've already have the bars. Once you have more experience, then go through a bar sweep to find a setup that you feel most comfortable with. You'll have more than enough time between the sessions since swapping out the bars takes 30 mins or so.
05-07-2007, 03:02 PM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (SlayANT)
I think I will definitely slap my 24mm front sway bar on after the responses in this thread.....but just to clarify if anyone else wants to chime in: I'm looking for NEUTRAL handling, not understeer or oversteer. I would rather have under than over though.
05-07-2007, 05:54 PM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (Cookie)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Cookie »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">No,, it's cool. I'm pretty resilient. I meant, we can all get out there on the street and get into situations with another jagoff that wants to test our skills and not be in the best frame of mind. Like the way we are emotionally, physically, psychologically. A fight with a g/f can send us guys in the other direction!! ( AND THAT,, is a whole other freakin' story!!! lol) </TD></TR></TABLE>
oh, I gotcha.
oh, I gotcha.
05-07-2007, 06:01 PM
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Re: ITR vs. EX Front Sway Bar?? (Agent_EM1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Agent_EM1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Personally I would just stick with the whole ITR set up... </TD></TR></TABLE>
After reading the above write up,,, great write, btw - thanks, JMelt4,,, I tend to agree with you too, Agent_EM1. ITR 24/22 with stiffer spring/shock set up would be the way to go.
Can anyone with this set up give an account of how it handles when hit hard?
And which is the best beef up for the back end. Don't want to go through what I went through last time. Hey, life is a learning process,, isn't it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>After reading the above write up,,, great write, btw - thanks, JMelt4,,, I tend to agree with you too, Agent_EM1. ITR 24/22 with stiffer spring/shock set up would be the way to go.
Can anyone with this set up give an account of how it handles when hit hard?
And which is the best beef up for the back end. Don't want to go through what I went through last time. Hey, life is a learning process,, isn't it?
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