samemoore

Hey, I recently took off my wheels to clean them and I noticed horrable/weird camber wear on the tires. The camber wear was unusual because it was only worn about 1/2 inch on the very inner part of the tire, and it was almost bald. The rest of the tire was still at about 80% tread. The car is lowered 2.5 inches with springs. They were professionally installed, but I never got the car alligned after the installation. Do you think the camber wear is from bad camber, which a camber kit would fix? Or do you think this sounds more like it's caused from rubbing. Thanks for your help and any advice you can provide. Here is a picture to show the tire, and how the tread looks fine; but trust me the inner part of the tire is almost bald.

littledan

your toe could be out... most likely and as well your camber will be bad since you are a lot lower than stock.

AzntaggeR

probably a combination of negative camber and toe adjustment being out of whack.

JDM PRO

doing an alignment w/out a camber kit is a waste of $$

STN_Pat

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDM PRO &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">doing an alignment w/out a camber kit is a waste of $$</TD></TR></TABLE>

WRONG.

Have your toe adjusted (aligned). It will help a lot. Camber DOES eat a bit of tires, but not MUCH. This has been discussed several times.

4DRPIMPIN

Your wear is not that unusual. Get a camber kit and then get a alignment.

Mr Hammond

:sigh:

This is the most common thing in the world when you lower a Honda and DON'T get an alighnment. It's not from "rubbing" and it's not form "camber wear". It's from having excessive toe out. You don't need a camber kit, just go get a ******* alignment already.

fishnfst

I second the alignment. I am runing 2 degrees negative camber and don't show barely any camber wear at all on a set of azenis with like 8000 miles. On the other hand my accord with just a set of neuspeed springs had horrible inside wear until I got it aligned.

Snail Tuning

should have gotten an allignment right away after the drop. 50 bucks could have saved u 100+ in tires that u have to buy now. a camber kit won't help at all without getting your toe adjusted on an allignment machine. i just adjusted mine because no shops in my area wanted to allign my car. your wheels prolly look like this. [] \\ meaning one tire is pointed strait and the other is aimed out alittle. even a 1/2 inch off will cause excesive inner tire wear. a camber kit would have done u no good without an allingment.

AzntaggeR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bmcc72 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">[] \\</TD></TR></TABLE>

nice illustration

but yea, go get your toe adjusted atleast. that will help and sometimes the alignment shop will charge you less if they're just doing an toe adjustment only.

94 Ferio SIR

Re: it your toe (alignment angle)

Alright, first of all if he had excessive toe out or in or any toe at all his tire wear wouldnt be that of which from negative/positve camber. If the toe angle on the vehicle was out of adjustment bad or not you probably wouldnt have tires anymore. you would also know if it was your toe cuz if it was your tires would have feathered edging. basically youd get kind of a stair effect with the tread going across the tire. when it comes to alignment angle you cant feel the effects of them being out of adjustment with your hand. all except for toe, toe you can see and feel with your hand. I suggest getting the skunk2 upper control arms camber kit. theyll fix your camber and they look sick as hell! but still get an alignment cuz there could be more wrong than you know.

Devine

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94 Ferio SIR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Re: it your toe (alignment angle)

Alright, first of all if he had excessive toe out or in or any toe at all his tire wear wouldnt be that of which from negative/positve camber. If the toe angle on the vehicle was out of adjustment bad or not you probably wouldnt have tires anymore. you would also know if it was your toe cuz if it was your tires would have feathered edging. basically youd get kind of a stair effect with the tread going across the tire. when it comes to alignment angle you cant feel the effects of them being out of adjustment with your hand. all except for toe, toe you can see and feel with your hand. I suggest getting the skunk2 upper control arms camber kit. theyll fix your camber and they look sick as hell! but still get an alignment cuz there could be more wrong than you know.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

YO "CUZ"...that has got to be one of the most confusing and false statements ever posted on H-t. I believe everyone will now feel dumber just by reading your comments....

back to the subject at hand, as azntagger, mr milano, and various other people in this thread have already said....screw the camber kit, get an alignment. Although camber is a tire wearing factor, it is not severe such as toe...regular tire rotations will help dull the effects of negative camber, hell i got 35k miles out of my last set of toyo fz4's and im dropped 4 inches without a camber kit of any sorts. Any time you change the geometry of your suspension (lowering springs/coilovers) your going to throw out your alignment!

civic_tuned

damm 2.5 is a lot get it aligned as soon as possible. i suggest a camber kit like skunk2 i do not like to see wear uneven wear at all. A lot of the guys here are going to say just get a alignment and camber kits are junk but to me its about personal preference

94 Ferio SIR

i understand that camber isnt as big of a tire wearing factor as toe. but, think about it, how does camber wear on a tire. on the inside or outside of a tire. toe on the other hand will generally go straight across the tire or close to it. the reason for this is because of the fact that if toe is out of adjustment your wheels will point out in the same direction or in, in the same direction and so on.

B_CRUZ!

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">:sigh:

This is the most common thing in the world when you lower a Honda and DON'T get an alighnment. It's not from "rubbing" and it's not form "camber wear". It's from having excessive toe out. You don't need a camber kit, just go get a ******* alignment already.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I can't stress that enough...

civic_tuned

simple.
-negative camber your tires are like this / \

+positve camber your tires are like this \ /

and more likely u have -negative camber so your tires are balding from the inside. Now in your situation u have - camber wear and toe is not aligned so thats why your tires wearing out to fast. Get it aligned if u dont have the bling for camber kit and youll be fine

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94 Ferio SIR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i understand that camber isnt as big of a tire wearing factor as toe. but, think about it, how does camber wear on a tire. on the inside or outside of a tire. toe on the other hand will generally go straight across the tire or close to it. the reason for this is because of the fact that if toe is out of adjustment your wheels will point out in the same direction or in, in the same direction and so on.</TD></TR></TABLE>

94 Ferio SIR

yeah your right neg =/ \ and pos. = \ /. i guess i should have specified a little bit more. looking at the wheels from a Top view toe in = / \ and toe out= \ /. it's all about how your looking at them right.(from the front, side, etc.) good point and good catch on that

ZEAL-SPORTS

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by AzntaggeR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">probably a combination of negative camber and toe adjustment being out of whack.</TD></TR></TABLE>

True that, check toe in - and toe out on it too. ;}

fizzbob7

yes, most tire wear is associated with toe (worn parts), simply because the vast majority of cars only see camber changes due to old, sagging springs

but most serious wear that has nothing to do with bent/broken parts is due to camber....people lowering the car or even raising it (trucks mostly).......you can have perfect toe and too much negative camber and you'll still wear tires.....go with positive toe to offset the negative camber, and handling will suffer......and oh yeah, it will still wear......

i'm sick of reading that camber doesn't wear tires, it does, and the big damage is usually done by bad negative camber.....when the inner shoulder of a tire is bearing most of the load, then it will wear 10x faster....width of the tire matters a lot because cheap, narrow tires have a rounded tread anyway......they're meant to hold air and get from point a to point b.......squared off performance tires will suffer.....with a perfect alignment, i got about 5500 miles from a set of azenis, i've seen better with worse alignment settings, but putting around all the time will save your tires for sure.....so does tons of other things, types of roads, do people ride with you often, highway driving or city driving, etc........

most tire wear is associated with worn outer tie rods that allow the toe to spread more (negative toe) because they'll naturally divide the total amount of toe or slack when you go down the road............new tie rods and an alignment (hooking up the heads, adjusting the toe basically, a 15 minute process) will fix that most of the time......but look at cars that come from the factory with extreme amounts of negative camber (as far as OEM settings are concerned), they wear tires.....i've owned a few of these types of cars....go look at a merkur xr4ti's rear tires.....great handling even though it's on struts, is 2800lbs, has a soft suspension from the factory, and is a mid 80's design.....that negative rear camber will let it stick in a curve.....

and oh yeah, bad negative camber will cause a tire to seperate more than any other outside force, even a curb or pothole......when you force the outer part of the belts to move inward, only one thing can occur....seperation......hell, i used to make a living doing alignments.........camber wears a LOT of tires out every year....it's just not always adjustable or addressed......some people just don't wanna **** with it, plain and simple.....slotting the strut plates on a ford taurus isn't fun, that's why people don't talk about it much......offset it with positive toe and a straight steering wheel to make the customer think they're all good, and then you're done....not right, but what usually gets done

concerning racing, it's not so much of an issue though......the constant stopping/going/turning requires an alignment that's good for handling first, and wear second......you really adjust the handling more than the wear, because hard driving is rough anyway...a lot more heat gets to the tires

Devine

Im sorry but i have to disagree, i dont believe camber is a major cause of tire wear. Now extreme negative or positive camber and not rotating your tires on a regular basis is a different story... have your toe set to factory specs and rotate your tires every 3-5k miles and i guarantee you wont see substantial amount of wear from camber.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94 Ferio SIR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> how does camber wear on a tire. on the inside or outside of a tire. toe on the other hand will generally go straight across the tire or close to it. the reason for this is because of the fact that if toe is out of adjustment your wheels will point out in the same direction or in, in the same direction and so on.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have to disagree with this statement as well, in every situation that i have seen a vehicle come in with extreme toe out or in, the INSIDE or the OUTSIDE of the tire has been the major wear point. You have to remember that almost every vehicle comes with negative camber from the factory!!!! The majority of the wear that is found across the face of the tire can be from multiple scenarios, most common being lack of rotation/ worn shocks or struts.

Most vehicles come from the factory with negative camber, next time you pull up behind a Infinity G35 or 350Z take a look at the back tires and notice they sit like this / \. You will also notice that the majority of your Mercedez Benz and BMW's have suspensions with extremely negative rear camber.

antiJDM

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by STN_Pat &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

WRONG.

Have your toe adjusted (aligned). It will help a lot. Camber DOES eat a bit of tires, but not MUCH. This has been discussed several times. </TD></TR></TABLE>

WRONG, all he was sayin is that without an alignment a camber kit is pointless, ease up a lil damn, he is right, you just had a different opinion about camber wear without a camber kit, of corse you can do an alignment and it will cure some of the outrageous tire wear, but a camber kit and alignment is the only way to go.

fizzbob7

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Devine &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Im sorry but i have to disagree, i dont believe camber is a major cause of tire wear. Now extreme negative or positive camber and not rotating your tires on a regular basis is a different story... have your toe set to factory specs and rotate your tires every 3-5k miles and i guarantee you wont see substantial amount of wear from camber.

I have to disagree with this statement as well, in every situation that i have seen a vehicle come in with extreme toe out or in, the INSIDE or the OUTSIDE of the tire has been the major wear point. You have to remember that almost every vehicle comes with negative camber from the factory!!!! The majority of the wear that is found across the face of the tire can be from multiple scenarios, most common being lack of rotation/ worn shocks or struts.

Most vehicles come from the factory with negative camber, next time you pull up behind a Infinity G35 or 350Z take a look at the back tires and notice they sit like this / \. You will also notice that the majority of your Mercedez Benz and BMW's have suspensions with extremely negative rear camber.

</TD></TR></TABLE>


i really don't worry about anything but facts......fact is, i've seen hundreds of cars come in with good toe/bad camber and tire wear......mostly old cars or cars that had been lowered, but when you talk about newer cars (g35 and 350z) you're talking about a small percentage of cars out there.....they're new......tech with them is new.....more adjustable points on the car, stiffer chassis, better tire technology (cheap tires are still cheap tires, and they make up nearly 60% of tire sales) so when you look at the majority of cars out there, older, more worn cars, you'll see that tire wear i was describing.....and since toe will usually wear the WHOLE SURFACE of the tire if the camber is ok (meaning way more rubber to wear off) it's not as bad most of the time.......camber can do it's thing in far less time......and show no signs other than tire wear on the extreme edge of the tire.....but the sidewalls arne't as thick as the tread, so when it gets into those belts, it's done......rest of the tire can look great, but the tire is still bad......and again what i said about seperation.....a seperated tire is also no good.....i'd rather have bad toe settings than bad camber settings any day


and i'm respectfully disagreeing....suspension setups are still the least precise part of modifying a car......and so many things play a role in it all......no hard feelings, i may come across as an ***, as my avatar implies lol

TeamNextGenChris

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mr Milano &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">:sigh:

This is the most common thing in the world when you lower a Honda and DON'T get an alighnment. It's not from "rubbing" and it's not form "camber wear". It's from having excessive toe out. You don't need a camber kit, just go get a ******* alignment already.</TD></TR></TABLE>
THANK YOU!both my cars are lowered about 3".i put one washer under the upper arm in the back,and left the front camber as is on both.got the toe set to factory spec,and i have NO uneven wear on either car(and the coupe has AVS-intermediates on it-pretty soft tires).
OF COURSE camber can cause uneven wear.if you have a bent suspension or chassis part,and have an extreme amount of negative camber,it certainly can cause wear on the inner edge of the tire.BUT,the amount of negative camber that your Honda(assuming no bent/worn out parts)will gain by lowering it WILL NOT cause excessive wear.it IS the toe that the car gains that wears out tires.the amount of toe and/or camber change a car has when being lowered depends on the type and geometry of the suspension.i'm sure there are some cars that may gain a shitload of camber,and have problems because of it.BUT,the multi-link suspension found on most newer Hondas has a problem with toe when lowered,and doesn't gain enough camber to cause a problem.
just go get an alignment,and see how it goes from there.
Chris *sigh*

SkyeC

I have almost 3 degrees of negative camber and my Azenis look great... so do my Victoracers...

Having properly aligned toe does wonders... and hell I run aggressive toe out in front!

94 Ferio SIR

i agree with you that most vehicles that have extreme toe out or in, the wear on the tire will most likely be on the inside or outside of the tire, depending on whether or not the toe is out or in. i also agree with you that vehicles come from factory with either negative or positve camber. they also come with some degree of toe and caster. but the thing is that engineers have designed those specs into the operation of the vehicle. I dont believe i ever said that camber was a major tire wearing factor, because i know that it isnt. out of adjustment toe is the biggest tire wearing factor. anyone who is certified in alignments or is a ride height expert, or anybody who has even read up properly on this subject knows. yes tire wear is also majorly associated with other things such as regular maintenance, things you mentioned as well as improper inflation. whether its overinflation or under inflation. everything that deals with the vehicle suspension, steering, and so on and what not ties into one another in some way. now as far as your statement about looking at g35's and 350z's Im going to have to agree with fizzbob7 and everything he said, and respectfully disagree with you too. because this has nothing to do with newer vehicles, but our own 92-95 civics and del sols, vehicles that have most likely been beat to hell over the last 10 to 12 years.