99GreenEX

Just wondering if anyone has installed an HHO system on their D16s?

I am very convinced and planning on building and installing a setup in the near future.. my only problem lies on gettng information regarding tricking the fuel system. I have seen people that tapped their MAP sensors, then those who tapped their O2 sensors... Now the problem i'm having is the D16Y8 has both...

Does this mean that the fuel mixture is controlled by both? My idea on the whole project is to cut down the fuel that the hydrogen can "replace" in a sense. A better explanation would be to say that, I'm not too concerned with the performance gain.. I want to set up the HHO system, and have it produce a fair amount of hydrogen... then lean out the fuel system to have the car still at the same performance level.

If anyone has a thread, or can link me to a good website to explain this info... that would be greatly appreciated.. The two very informative sites I've been told about have coincidentally vanished from the internet...

99GreenEX

No one has tried this?

denraweb

I haven't seen one on a civic, but some guy came to look at my Starlet and he had an older model Toyota Pick up (Tacoma, I think), and he had a hydrogen based system on his truck...said it bumped him up about 10mpg...not to shabby...looked all crazy under the hood too...like a flux capacitor lol

Chiodos

I would like to do this on my D15. I need more info also! bump this thread

1CaMw0nDeR

Just call the place that advertises them for sale, and ask... http://www.runyourcarwithwater.com/?hop=jordanr

ddd4114

Hydrogen can improve fuel economy when used correctly.... and when it's not produced using the energy "created" by the engine. Think of the Law of Conservation of Energy and the laws of thermodynamics.

If you're willing to stick a hydrogen tank in your trunk, go for it. Otherwise, it's a waste of money.


Modified by ddd4114 at 7:44 PM 6/30/2008

99GreenEX

Buying might be a waste of money, and drawing one amp isn't gunna load your vehicle enough to do anything... This system uses less power than your windshield wipers....

Now, if you can make a system and install it yourself for under $200 and get an increase of say 15-20 MPG's. you might need to run out like 4 tanks to have paid yourself back.

People that think running current through water takes so much power from the engine are idiots... Plus the hydrogen being in there will actually increase performance a modest bit.

ddd4114

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99GreenEX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">People that think running current through water takes so much power from the engine are idiots... Plus the hydrogen being in there will actually increase performance a modest bit.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Please elaborate.

You're saying that you will get MORE energy from the hydrogen than it will take to produce it?

MadScientistMatt

I've run the math with hydrogen and come up with three numbers you can use to gauge the effectiveness of a hydrogen system.

1. To get the hydrogen equivalent of a gallon of gasoline requires separating 2.2 gallons of water.

2. If you somehow had a 100% efficient generator, to generate that much hydrogen in an hour would require 50 horsepower.

3. If you used lead-acid batteries to power the hydrogen generator rather than running it off your alternator (imagine what a 50 hp load would do to your gas mileage!), you would need between 800 and 2,000 pounds of batteries to run the device for one hour.

Compare these numbers to the typical "HHO" generator that takes a few amps of current and won't blow up a party balloon in a minute, and you'll see these designs are way too small to have any real effect. If you generated the hydrogen in your basement, compressed it, and put it in a storage tank you might have something. It would be something expensive, but it wouldn't break any laws of physics.

If you'd like to check my math on this, follow this link:

http://madscientistmatt.blogsp...rogen

One non-balloney note is that an engine running pure hydrogen (from a compressed gas tank, not an onboard generator) could put out significantly more power than one on gasoline.

ddd4114

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MadScientistMatt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One non-balloney note is that an engine running pure hydrogen (from a compressed gas tank, not an onboard generator) could put out significantly more power than one on gasoline.</TD></TR></TABLE>
That is, if the engine can hold itself together.

99GreenEX

I'm not talking about running a car purely off of hydrogen...

Second, measure the amperage of and HHO system compared to running just about any other electronics (lights, wipers, AC fans...) and you will see it doesn't take more power.

Third, i know someone who has installed this on a 3 cylinder chevy, i forgot what model it is, but i think its pretty much a geo metro... He has gained a significant amount of power, and now gets nearly 70 MPG.

This is something that has been proven to work, unlike that POS tornado BS.

Frozen E

friend of mine just put one on his jeep. He's running one of those MPG readout computer things. You can actually see his MPG change when he turns the thing on and off. He's gaining about 5 MPG just by putting this thing in. Not worth the risk on my brand new car.

ddd4114

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99GreenEX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Third, i know someone who has installed this on a 3 cylinder chevy, i forgot what model it is, but i think its pretty much a geo metro... He has gained a significant amount of power, and now gets nearly 70 MPG.</TD></TR></TABLE>
How much power? What mileage was he getting before?

Ricey McRicerton

Seems like a lot of hype to sucker people into spending money on stuff that doesn't work to me...

Colby71

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ricey McRicerton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Seems like a lot of hype to sucker people into spending money on stuff that doesn't work to me...</TD></TR></TABLE>

agreed my dad is tring to get me to do it with him. It is kind of a skam thing they give the first book for free then the next one cost a 100$ prob. there will be a 3rd that will cost 400 or something.

I am planning on showing him this thred to maybe open his eyes.

john666

ive been curious about this subject.. checked on ebay kits are available.
i believe its compareable to the $5-20 resistor that gives you 5 more hp.


heres a pic

Ricey McRicerton

So here's a real question for those guys who think this works? If it worked (like the 5 dollar chip on ebay, and the tornado, and all of the other scam car products) why wouldn't everyone be using one? It's not like the big car manufacturers enjoy selling cars with low MPG numbers on the window stickers, and if it's cheap enough to add on to your 2000 dollar civic, best believe a 50,000 dollar Mercedes or BMW would be using it to edge out the competition.

shifty35

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 99GreenEX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm not talking about running a car purely off of hydrogen...

Second, measure the amperage of and HHO system compared to running just about any other electronics (lights, wipers, AC fans...) and you will see it doesn't take more power.

Third, i know someone who has installed this on a 3 cylinder chevy, i forgot what model it is, but i think its pretty much a geo metro... He has gained a significant amount of power, and now gets nearly 70 MPG.

This is something that has been proven to work, unlike that POS tornado BS.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Ok, brief chemistry lesson. Water (H2O) is in a stable, bonded state. It requires energy to break the chemical bonds holding the atoms together. Supply the needed energy (in the form of electricity) and those bonds are broken. Then, when you burn the hydrogen, you reform those bonds and the energy is released again.

You don't get more energy when you reform the bonds than you used to break them in the first place, ever, ever.

Moreover, the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics insists that every time you convert energy from one form to another, you *lose* some to a waste form, typically heat. Thus, by performing H2O -&gt; H2 + O2 -&gt; H2O you end up losing energy already.

The only way you can come out ahead is if the addition of hydrogen allows you to burn the gasoline in the engine much more efficiently than you were before. H2 in large enough quantities can allow you to burn a very lean mixture without engine damage.

Clearly not going to happen with a little plastic water tank and vacuum hoses.

If you want to save money on gas, inflate your tires to 50 psi and slow down.

MadScientistMatt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Second, measure the amperage of and HHO system compared to running just about any other electronics (lights, wipers, AC fans...) and you will see it doesn't take more power.</TD></TR></TABLE>

And that's precisely the problem - one large enough to have a real effect would draw so much power you'd need to feed it with a wire the size of your wrist. One that's drawing only an amp or so would not make enough hydrogen to blow up a party balloon.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. If you say your turbo kit gave you 50 hp, nobody's going to doubt you, because that's a reasonable gain for a turbo kit. Getting 5 more mpg by adding a few grams of hydrogen to your engine is not reasonable. If you want to prove one of these works, you'll need a pretty rigorous test, not just seeing what the MPG meter does in uncontrolled street driving. Something like sending one to an EPA-approved lab and being put through the same MPG tests they subject a new vehicle to before and after, or a copy of Consumer Report's carefully controlled test loop, for instance.

THC07

So why did the military use this hydrogen assit on the planes and tanks or whatever? did they not? I was told they did. also there is a guy that claims he was getting 40mpg in his corolla and now hes getting 80... lies?



Modified by THC07 at 9:57 AM 7/1/2008

ddd4114

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by THC07 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So why did the military use this hydrogen assit on the planes and tanks or whatever? did they not? I was told they did. also there is a guy that claims he was getting 40mpg in his corolla and now hes getting 80... lies?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Maybe, maybe not. They might just be "inflated truths". You'll have to find more details about these cases for them to be considered. I have heard a lot of strange things too, and some simple research debunked the claims.

Reread Ricey McRicerton's second post. If this worked, everybody would be using it.

Like Butter

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Ricey McRicerton &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So here's a real question for those guys who think this works? If it worked (like the 5 dollar chip on ebay, and the tornado, and all of the other scam car products) why wouldn't everyone be using one? It's not like the big car manufacturers enjoy selling cars with low MPG numbers on the window stickers, and if it's cheap enough to add on to your 2000 dollar civic, best believe a 50,000 dollar Mercedes or BMW would be using it to edge out the competition. </TD></TR></TABLE>

The real question is how many people do you know can install this system? How many shops can install this system? How long has the idea been in use? and with the way they design cars there's like no room in an engine bay for this (they use toddlers to wire everything up because an adults hand would never fit). Also using this system will up manufacturing prices for R&D and the economy already isn't doing so hot so they might as well stick with what works.

MadScientistMatt

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So why did the military use this hydrogen assit on the planes and tanks or whatever? did they not? I was told they did. also there is a guy that claims he was getting 40mpg in his corolla and now hes getting 80... lies?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Not necessarily deliberate lies, but not accurate representations of the truth, either.

While there have been a couple of bogus claims that the military used magnets or fuel catalysts, there really were a couple of planes in World War II that ran on a mixture of gasoline and water when at full throttle. The water was used as an antidetonant, since these planes used turbos and a lot of boost. A water injected engine can use a bit less gas than one without it because you can lean out the mixture with less risk of burning a hole in the piston. This isn't related to hydrogen generators at all, other than that both use water.

The guy claiming he's getting 80 mpg with his Corolla? My first thought is that it's most likely a lie, similar to the eBay Chip guys claiming a 15 mpg increase with their chips-that-aren't-chips. There are a few other possiblities - I haven't seen his claims firsthand, so I'm not sure which ones could be possible.

1. He's generating the hydrogen off the car, and only counting the gasoline burned. Sort of like how the guys in Detroit are allowed to only count the gasoline burned in an E85 flex fuel car when it comes to Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules.

2. The "Corolla" is in fact a 1,000 lb carbon fiber replica of a Corolla built around a Toyota engine block casting and has all sorts of other modifications which are, in reality, responsible for the mileage increase.

But I think it's more likely to be a lie to promote his product. It is more likely that this guy would be out to bamboozle everyone than that a few grams of hydrogen could double the efficency of an engine.

I've talked with people who have built 1,000+ mpg "cars" that used every trick in the book to get better mileage for various MPG competition events. These things weighed less than my sport bike, had almost no brakes because brakes create friction even when they're not squeezed, ran engines that you could easily carry in a backpack - and you won't see a single HHO generator on these cars.

99GreenEX

Ok. This guy has it installed on that 3 cylinder thing, and also his V6 ranger... He has increased his gas mileage around 6MPG but he is still playing around with the fuel mixture and the electrolyte in the cell..

On his 3 cyl chevy he has the fuel controller rigged to completely cut the fuel. I told him he was full of ****, so he unplugged the power supply to the fuel pump and the engine was still running, he left it unplugged and we pulled out of the driveway, it was very underpowered and sputtered if you gave it around 15% throttle... but it ran. I then drive beside him with my civic. He turned the cell completely off and also the controller box.

with the cell off, as expected the civic pulled pretty hard in 2nd gear (both cars) from 20mph to around 50mph or so (public roads). He then set it at where he usually gets his 70 MPG. This time he was able hang on a bit better. He then put it to running the hydrogen cell and 100% expected fuel and this time he lost maybe a car length to my civic.

He said at that setting he would still get slightly better than stock mileage when it was not floored, because obviously he is getting a better burn. He said before he installed the kit he was getting low to mid 40's MPG depending how much his wife drove (which yielded better figures the more frequently she drove it.)

This was all in person, i actually drove out to his apartment (45 mins away) with my friend, whom is friends with this guy since he was dating his mom.... if thats confusing, this guy is my friends' moms' ex-boyfriend.

I think i have all the proof i need to install a kit like this. I just need to figure out which sensors if not both the MAP and O2 sensors to fool. Which was actually the original question to this thread. I didn't ask for opinions if it was worth it or not and to discuss that.... I have the proof i need, i'm going to do it, so all i want to know from here is what sensor (or if it should be both) i would need to "tap" into. As far as i know the MAP sends some of the last info regarding the frequency of the pulses sent to the injectors... but also if the o2 sensor detects more o2 its gunna add fuel, but does it go through the MAP first? or does each contribute to it independantly?

99GreenEX

Another thing, have you asked yourself why that water powered car project by (i think it was within GM) was suddenly scrapped after a successful test run and press release? They could sell the cars for $3000 more or the oil company could give them an offer they can't refuse to not release it...