Extended shifter ghetto fab style
06-06-2007, 08:49 PM
#27
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
http://www.circuithero.com/products.html
I can not has ban now?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
i just bought one the other day
http://www.circuithero.com/products.html
I can not has ban now?
</TD></TR></TABLE>i just bought one the other day
06-06-2007, 10:06 PM
#28
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Re: (srehtorblos)
Great job!
haha I tried doing this from parts from home depot, but I needed a longer coupling nut.
(Note I was gonna cut it a lot shorter haha)
Truck shifter FTL,
haha I tried doing this from parts from home depot, but I needed a longer coupling nut.
(Note I was gonna cut it a lot shorter haha)
Truck shifter FTL,
06-06-2007, 10:22 PM
#29
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Re: (jgtc1fizzle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Brings the shifter closer to the steering wheel, minimizing the time your hands are off the wheel while road racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, but it also lengthens the movement to change gears.
I would prefer to see something like that on a 2 speed autoglide trans...but for regular road racing with a manual transmission I would much rather have a shorter throw...
The price too, at that circuit thing, 81 or something for the ****, 41 or something for the extender, holy hell. For what, a longer shift time?
I don't know, maybe I'm just off my hinges, but seems like some more useless JDM **** to me. I mean the shifter in my '67 z28 was tall - but it didn't have a center console so it had to reach the floor...
Even if you try to weigh it out w/ a short throw shifter you still have to move your arm more, I don't know, I just don't get the purpose of it. Closer to the steering wheel, you say. True, but it counters the time u save moving your hand to the shifter when you g2 throw the thing into the backseat to hit 2nd or 4th.
Brings the shifter closer to the steering wheel, minimizing the time your hands are off the wheel while road racing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, but it also lengthens the movement to change gears.
I would prefer to see something like that on a 2 speed autoglide trans...but for regular road racing with a manual transmission I would much rather have a shorter throw...
The price too, at that circuit thing, 81 or something for the ****, 41 or something for the extender, holy hell. For what, a longer shift time?
I don't know, maybe I'm just off my hinges, but seems like some more useless JDM **** to me. I mean the shifter in my '67 z28 was tall - but it didn't have a center console so it had to reach the floor...
Even if you try to weigh it out w/ a short throw shifter you still have to move your arm more, I don't know, I just don't get the purpose of it. Closer to the steering wheel, you say. True, but it counters the time u save moving your hand to the shifter when you g2 throw the thing into the backseat to hit 2nd or 4th.
06-06-2007, 10:26 PM
#30
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Re: (jgtc1fizzle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by jgtc1fizzle »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Great job!
haha I tried doing this from parts from home depot, but I needed a longer coupling nut.
(Note I was gonna cut it a lot shorter haha)
Truck shifter FTL,
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Im sorry but why would you want your shifter this long? Looks like a golf club
haha I tried doing this from parts from home depot, but I needed a longer coupling nut.
(Note I was gonna cut it a lot shorter haha)
Truck shifter FTL,
</TD></TR></TABLE>Im sorry but why would you want your shifter this long? Looks like a golf club
06-06-2007, 10:27 PM
#32
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, but it also lengthens the movement to change gears.
I would prefer to see something like that on a 2 speed autoglide trans...but for regular road racing with a manual transmission I would much rather have a shorter throw...
The price too, at that circuit thing, 81 or something for the ****, 41 or something for the extender, holy hell. For what, a longer shift time?
I don't know, maybe I'm just off my hinges, but seems like some more useless JDM **** to me. I mean the shifter in my '67 z28 was tall - but it didn't have a center console so it had to reach the floor...
Even if you try to weigh it out w/ a short throw shifter you still have to move your arm more, I don't know, I just don't get the purpose of it. Closer to the steering wheel, you say. True, but it counters the time u save moving your hand to the shifter when you g2 throw the thing into the backseat to hit 2nd or 4th.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Since when does extending the height of the shifter change the gear throw?
Yeah, but it also lengthens the movement to change gears.
I would prefer to see something like that on a 2 speed autoglide trans...but for regular road racing with a manual transmission I would much rather have a shorter throw...
The price too, at that circuit thing, 81 or something for the ****, 41 or something for the extender, holy hell. For what, a longer shift time?
I don't know, maybe I'm just off my hinges, but seems like some more useless JDM **** to me. I mean the shifter in my '67 z28 was tall - but it didn't have a center console so it had to reach the floor...
Even if you try to weigh it out w/ a short throw shifter you still have to move your arm more, I don't know, I just don't get the purpose of it. Closer to the steering wheel, you say. True, but it counters the time u save moving your hand to the shifter when you g2 throw the thing into the backseat to hit 2nd or 4th.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Since when does extending the height of the shifter change the gear throw?
06-06-2007, 10:29 PM
#33
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Since when does extending the height of the shifter change the gear throw?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Simple, assuming ur grabbing it at the top (the ****) you have to move it more distance to move the gear X amount. It's the exact opposite of moving the fulcrum up to shorten throws with a short throw shifter, you're "moving the fulcrum down" by lengthening the upper portion of the setup.
Though you know this...
Since when does extending the height of the shifter change the gear throw?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Simple, assuming ur grabbing it at the top (the ****) you have to move it more distance to move the gear X amount. It's the exact opposite of moving the fulcrum up to shorten throws with a short throw shifter, you're "moving the fulcrum down" by lengthening the upper portion of the setup.
Though you know this...
06-06-2007, 10:31 PM
#34
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Simple, assuming ur grabbing it at the top (the ****) you have to move it more distance to move the gear X amount. It's the exact opposite of moving the fulcrum up to shorten throws with a short throw shifter, you're "moving the fulcrum down" by lengthening the upper portion of the setup.
Though you know this...</TD></TR></TABLE>
You haven't changed the fulcrum at all. It still pivots from the same point. I think you're misunderstanding the physics of this.
Simple, assuming ur grabbing it at the top (the ****) you have to move it more distance to move the gear X amount. It's the exact opposite of moving the fulcrum up to shorten throws with a short throw shifter, you're "moving the fulcrum down" by lengthening the upper portion of the setup.
Though you know this...</TD></TR></TABLE>
You haven't changed the fulcrum at all. It still pivots from the same point. I think you're misunderstanding the physics of this.
06-06-2007, 10:38 PM
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
You haven't changed the fulcrum at all. It still pivots from the same point. I think you're misunderstanding the physics of this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, you haven't physically moved the fulcrum, but you've moved it down (the opposite of a short throw shifter) in relevance to the entire setup.
Say your stock shifter is 1-10 - 1 being the ****, 10 being where it connects, say the fulcrum is 5.
So with a short throw shifter it moves to say, 3, throw increased.
With the extension you haven't moved it from 5, but ur not dealing with 1-10 anymore, now ur dealing with 1-20, so that 5 is now 15 but in relevance to the setup is 25% to the base while before it was 50%...so no, the fulcrum hasn't moved, but in relevance to where you're grabbing it (presumably the top), it's moved up, lengthening the throw.
I'll give you another example. Say with a stock shifter you have to move it 3" to get from 1st to 2nd, if you put a 10 ft poll on the end of that shifter, would it still be 3" you have to move your hand in order to achieve the same movement at the linkage? Of course not, it'd be like 2ft.
Though you know this; and I know you know this; and you know that I know that you know this, so why are you giving me a hard time about it?
You haven't changed the fulcrum at all. It still pivots from the same point. I think you're misunderstanding the physics of this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, you haven't physically moved the fulcrum, but you've moved it down (the opposite of a short throw shifter) in relevance to the entire setup.
Say your stock shifter is 1-10 - 1 being the ****, 10 being where it connects, say the fulcrum is 5.
So with a short throw shifter it moves to say, 3, throw increased.
With the extension you haven't moved it from 5, but ur not dealing with 1-10 anymore, now ur dealing with 1-20, so that 5 is now 15 but in relevance to the setup is 25% to the base while before it was 50%...so no, the fulcrum hasn't moved, but in relevance to where you're grabbing it (presumably the top), it's moved up, lengthening the throw.
I'll give you another example. Say with a stock shifter you have to move it 3" to get from 1st to 2nd, if you put a 10 ft poll on the end of that shifter, would it still be 3" you have to move your hand in order to achieve the same movement at the linkage? Of course not, it'd be like 2ft.
Though you know this; and I know you know this; and you know that I know that you know this, so why are you giving me a hard time about it?
06-06-2007, 10:42 PM
#37
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Re: (thegreat0ne)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thegreat0ne »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Im sorry but why would you want your shifter this long? Looks like a golf club</TD></TR></TABLE>
It was a joke, I didn't keep it.
Im sorry but why would you want your shifter this long? Looks like a golf club</TD></TR></TABLE>
It was a joke, I didn't keep it.
06-06-2007, 10:50 PM
#38
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No, you haven't physically moved the fulcrum, but you've moved it down (the opposite of a short throw shifter) in relevance to the entire setup.
Say your stock shifter is 1-10 - 1 being the ****, 10 being where it connects, say the fulcrum is 5.
So with a short throw shifter it moves to say, 3, throw increased.
With the extension you haven't moved it from 5, but ur not dealing with 1-10 anymore, now ur dealing with 1-20, so that 5 is now 15 but in relevance to the setup is 25% to the base while before it was 50%...so no, the fulcrum hasn't moved, but in relevance to where you're grabbing it (presumably the top), it's moved up, lengthening the throw.
I'll give you another example. Say with a stock shifter you have to move it 3" to get from 1st to 2nd, if you put a 10 ft poll on the end of that shifter, would it still be 3" you have to move your hand in order to achieve the same movement at the linkage? Of course not, it'd be like 2ft.
Though you know this; and I know you know this; and you know that I know that you know this, so why are you giving me a hard time about it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand exactly what you're saying.
It may take you physically "longer" to shift from point A to point B with a longer lever. This does not mean, however, you have shifted the fulcrum at all. The work distance (the pale blue line) has not changed at all. The minimal time (hundredths of a second) in change between the blue line and the green line is infinitely negated by the benefit of reducing the time spent away from the wheel.
Another thing to consider is that you're adding a maximum of .25" in increased "throw" ... but you're shaving more than 3" in distance between the **** and the wheel.
It's not about how fast you can shift from one gear to the next once your hand is on the shifter, it's about how fast you can get your hand back on the wheel. Do some road racing and Auto-X and you'll realize how much of a necessity it is to keep your hands on the wheel.
No, you haven't physically moved the fulcrum, but you've moved it down (the opposite of a short throw shifter) in relevance to the entire setup.
Say your stock shifter is 1-10 - 1 being the ****, 10 being where it connects, say the fulcrum is 5.
So with a short throw shifter it moves to say, 3, throw increased.
With the extension you haven't moved it from 5, but ur not dealing with 1-10 anymore, now ur dealing with 1-20, so that 5 is now 15 but in relevance to the setup is 25% to the base while before it was 50%...so no, the fulcrum hasn't moved, but in relevance to where you're grabbing it (presumably the top), it's moved up, lengthening the throw.
I'll give you another example. Say with a stock shifter you have to move it 3" to get from 1st to 2nd, if you put a 10 ft poll on the end of that shifter, would it still be 3" you have to move your hand in order to achieve the same movement at the linkage? Of course not, it'd be like 2ft.
Though you know this; and I know you know this; and you know that I know that you know this, so why are you giving me a hard time about it?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand exactly what you're saying.
It may take you physically "longer" to shift from point A to point B with a longer lever. This does not mean, however, you have shifted the fulcrum at all. The work distance (the pale blue line) has not changed at all. The minimal time (hundredths of a second) in change between the blue line and the green line is infinitely negated by the benefit of reducing the time spent away from the wheel.
Another thing to consider is that you're adding a maximum of .25" in increased "throw" ... but you're shaving more than 3" in distance between the **** and the wheel.
It's not about how fast you can shift from one gear to the next once your hand is on the shifter, it's about how fast you can get your hand back on the wheel. Do some road racing and Auto-X and you'll realize how much of a necessity it is to keep your hands on the wheel.
06-06-2007, 10:52 PM
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I understand exactly what you're saying.
It may take you physically "longer" to shift from point A to point B with a longer lever. This does not mean, however, you have shifted the fulcrum at all. The work distance (the pale blue line) has not changed at all. The minimal time (hundredths of a second) in change between the blue line and the green line is infinitely negated by the benefit of reducing the time spent away from the wheel.
Another thing to consider is that you're adding a maximum of .25" in increased "throw" ... but you're shaving more than 3" in distance between the **** and the wheel.
It's not about how fast you can shift from one gear to the next once your hand is on the shifter, it's about how fast you can get your hand back on the wheel. Do some road racing and Auto-X and you'll realize how much of a necessity it is to keep your hands on the wheel. </TD></TR></TABLE>
you know this is a useless argument right?
It may take you physically "longer" to shift from point A to point B with a longer lever. This does not mean, however, you have shifted the fulcrum at all. The work distance (the pale blue line) has not changed at all. The minimal time (hundredths of a second) in change between the blue line and the green line is infinitely negated by the benefit of reducing the time spent away from the wheel.
Another thing to consider is that you're adding a maximum of .25" in increased "throw" ... but you're shaving more than 3" in distance between the **** and the wheel.
It's not about how fast you can shift from one gear to the next once your hand is on the shifter, it's about how fast you can get your hand back on the wheel. Do some road racing and Auto-X and you'll realize how much of a necessity it is to keep your hands on the wheel. </TD></TR></TABLE>
you know this is a useless argument right?
06-06-2007, 10:55 PM
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Re: (Team RS2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Team RS2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">you know this is a useless argument right? </TD></TR></TABLE>
Why, because I explained something he didn't understand? Add something useful to the thread, or leave.
Why, because I explained something he didn't understand? Add something useful to the thread, or leave.
06-06-2007, 10:59 PM
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Yeah, I realize, but like I said, I think the length produced by the more movement in the shift counters and cancels the less movement u have to move from the wheel.
Though I don't autocross nor road race, so I really can't empathize for how necessary your hands are on the wheel. In dragging it's easier to keep one hand on the shifter
Though like I said, maybe it makes a little sense b/c in the drag trans-am for the shop we had a 3sp auto trans and the shifter being closer to the wheel greatly helped since u need both hands on the wheel to counter steer in case u get out of the groove...so maybe I can see how it's better for road racing, guess that makes sense...dunno.
Guess I don't see a need for it in daily life, I certainly won't pay ~120 for it like from that circuit deal... Dunno, like I said, I really can't empathize because I don't roadrace or autoX.
Though you're adding more than 1/4" to your throw. I drove w/ a pair of vice grips on the handle on my ford probe when I snapped off the shifter, I noticed the difference, it felt like I was driving the flatbed.
Though I don't autocross nor road race, so I really can't empathize for how necessary your hands are on the wheel. In dragging it's easier to keep one hand on the shifter
Though like I said, maybe it makes a little sense b/c in the drag trans-am for the shop we had a 3sp auto trans and the shifter being closer to the wheel greatly helped since u need both hands on the wheel to counter steer in case u get out of the groove...so maybe I can see how it's better for road racing, guess that makes sense...dunno.
Guess I don't see a need for it in daily life, I certainly won't pay ~120 for it like from that circuit deal... Dunno, like I said, I really can't empathize because I don't roadrace or autoX.
Though you're adding more than 1/4" to your throw. I drove w/ a pair of vice grips on the handle on my ford probe when I snapped off the shifter, I noticed the difference, it felt like I was driving the flatbed.
06-06-2007, 11:01 PM
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Though I don't autocross nor road race, so I really can't empathize for how necessary your hands are on the wheel. In dragging it's easier to keep one hand on the shifter</TD></TR></TABLE>
Unless you've got a 'tarded amount of torque steer, it's far less important to keep your hands on the wheel in a drag race. For most of us, it is just easier to keep your hand on the shifter, since it's crucial to shift at a certain time, and do it as quick as possible.
In road race, you can hold yourself in that gear for the extra half a second it's going to take you to shift, but when you have to take your hand off the wheel right before the apex of a turn to shift ... it gets hairy.
Unless you've got a 'tarded amount of torque steer, it's far less important to keep your hands on the wheel in a drag race. For most of us, it is just easier to keep your hand on the shifter, since it's crucial to shift at a certain time, and do it as quick as possible.
In road race, you can hold yourself in that gear for the extra half a second it's going to take you to shift, but when you have to take your hand off the wheel right before the apex of a turn to shift ... it gets hairy.
06-06-2007, 11:02 PM
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Re: (Team RS2)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Team RS2 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
you know this is a useless argument right? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not sure of how much of an argument it is opposed to an explanation of its necessity.
you know this is a useless argument right? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not sure of how much of an argument it is opposed to an explanation of its necessity.
06-06-2007, 11:03 PM
#44
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm not sure of how much of an argument it is opposed to an explanation of its necessity.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Indeed it is. It's not an argument until someone gets heated.
I'm not sure of how much of an argument it is opposed to an explanation of its necessity.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Indeed it is. It's not an argument until someone gets heated.
06-06-2007, 11:06 PM
#45
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Re: (Eran)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Eran »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Unless you've got a 'tarded amount of torque steer, it's far less important to keep your hands on the wheel in a drag race. For most of us, it is just easier to keep your hand on the shifter, since it's crucial to shift at a certain time, and do it as quick as possible.
In road race, you can hold yourself in that gear for the extra half a second it's going to take you to shift, but when you have to take your hand off the wheel right before the apex of a turn to shift ... it gets hairy.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I suppose.
Though in drag racing a 200hp civic against some asshat in his ford focus on the street, on an actual track, RWD, and lots of power, you'll go sideways if you come out of that groove, straight up, g2 be ready to correct so you don't eat a wall.
So I guess I can see its necessity, thx for the explanation.
Unless you've got a 'tarded amount of torque steer, it's far less important to keep your hands on the wheel in a drag race. For most of us, it is just easier to keep your hand on the shifter, since it's crucial to shift at a certain time, and do it as quick as possible.
In road race, you can hold yourself in that gear for the extra half a second it's going to take you to shift, but when you have to take your hand off the wheel right before the apex of a turn to shift ... it gets hairy.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I suppose.
Though in drag racing a 200hp civic against some asshat in his ford focus on the street, on an actual track, RWD, and lots of power, you'll go sideways if you come out of that groove, straight up, g2 be ready to correct so you don't eat a wall.
So I guess I can see its necessity, thx for the explanation.
06-06-2007, 11:26 PM
#46
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I certainly won't pay ~120 for it like from that circuit deal... </TD></TR></TABLE>
its 41.50 shipped for the extender the **** is optionaly...I myself rather like my a duracon which is 50 shipped on my long shift or stock for free!
its 41.50 shipped for the extender the **** is optionaly...I myself rather like my a duracon which is 50 shipped on my long shift
or stock for free!
06-06-2007, 11:39 PM
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Re: (The Lobster)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by The Lobster »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
its 41.50 shipped for the extender the **** is optionaly...I myself rather like my a duracon which is 50 shipped on my long shift or stock for free!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yeah, but it's 80 for the ****...
***** are ridiculously expensive, nice, but expensive.
its 41.50 shipped for the extender the **** is optionaly...I myself rather like my a duracon which is 50 shipped on my long shift
or stock for free!</TD></TR></TABLE>Yeah, but it's 80 for the ****...
***** are ridiculously expensive, nice, but expensive.
06-06-2007, 11:58 PM
#48
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Re: (Syndacate)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Syndacate »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yeah, but it's 80 for the ****...
***** are ridiculously expensive, nice, but expensive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i did a lil search and yes the **** is 80 bucks.
skunk2 has almost the exact same one with the exact same weight for 40 shipped. sponsor section
Yeah, but it's 80 for the ****...
***** are ridiculously expensive, nice, but expensive.</TD></TR></TABLE>
i did a lil search and yes the **** is 80 bucks.
skunk2 has almost the exact same one with the exact same weight for 40 shipped. sponsor section
06-07-2007, 03:43 AM
#49
Go Tigers!
Thread Starter
Re: Extended shifter ghetto fab style (Bense)
lol you guys are spending wayyyyy too much time arguing about how it won't work.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How does it work? I don't know. This is what happens when ADHD + waiting for parts + time away from the computer leads to:</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bense »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How does it work? I don't know. This is what happens when ADHD + waiting for parts + time away from the computer leads to:</TD></TR></TABLE>
