Guam_CiviC619

My question is concerning front and rear camber. I own a 2000 Civic Sedan, I am gonna use Weapon-R Dual Spring Circuit Pro Coil-Overs with KYB AGX shocks. I plan to lower 2 inches at most. I've been told that I will need to just shim the rear and "see" if I need a camber kit for the front. Any suggestions? [IMG][/IMG]


[Modified by Guam_CiviC619, 4:45 PM 9/15/2002]

EVIL Hx Coupe

You can just use washers to correct the rear camber... and the front can be solved with a good aligment... at least that worked for me, and i have a (1.5") drop. I think jdmfan.com has a how to on the washer camber correction thing...


[Modified by Boost Pressure, 9:58 PM 7/4/2002]

Guam_CiviC619

Thanx

96 SOHC VTEC

How exaclty can the front camber be corrected by a good alignment? I know you can have the toe adjusted, which is a major contributor to treadwear, but how do you adjust the camber? My camber is still off in the front, and I just had an alignment.

Washers work fine for the rear.


[Modified by 96 SOHC VTEC, 7:11 PM 7/3/2002]

Guam_CiviC619

Bump

EVIL Hx Coupe

I didn't have much camber but I paid 70 bucks just for the front being aligned. How they did it??? I don't know but my tires are straight now.

00-ITR-373

You cannot adjust camber in the front. I doubt your allignment will be out of spec at all in the front, if so, it will be minimal. Expect the rears to be out of spec. Just get some longer bolts and put washers under there. Or buy an inexpensive camber kit if you'd like to be really exact about where your rear camber is set at.

Definately get an allignment! Good luck. 2 inch drop sounds fine.

VTEC

To adjust front camber, you will need a camber kit, available from companies such as http://www.ingallseng.com, http://www.specprod.com, etc.

Rear camber can be adjusted via washers, but that is kind of like a hit-and-miss proposition unless the shop or person is very experienced and knows how much washers to use to get the rear camber to your specs. There are also rear camber kits...check the above sites.

Go to a reputable alignment shop (ask your local speed shop) to have the alignment done.

.Ryan

Holy ****....$70 for an alignment.

Goullish

i don't see how an alignment can correct the camber, considering alignment only adjust the rotation of the arms, not the length (to control toe in or out) . If you have no camber after the alignment, you had no camber before the alignment (lucky bastard). For my 2" drop on my Slo, i ended up with 10-15 degrees front, 5 degrees rear (not going to do anything about it), also it gave me a 2-3 degree toe in in the rear, which i am keeping, because it gives me a slight off throttle oversteer, due to the weight shifting. Remember though, if you just do lowering springs, you end up with a lpt more camber than if you go with coilovers, or springs with new struts.

Tire wear=

Lowered car=

.Ryan

For $70 boks you could have got a Camber kit or with atleast a few more bucks.

VTEC

10-15 degrees in the front? Are you talking about camber? 10-15 degrees is way way way way too much if you're talking about camber. The typical lowered Civic will have NEGATIVE camber of about -1 to -2 degrees, with an extremely lowered Civic about -3 degrees or so.

Civics from the factory are only adjustable for toe. You need a camber kit if you want any sort of camber adjustment done to your car.

Goullish

[QUOTE]10-15 degrees in the front? Are you talking about camber? 10-15 degrees is way way way way too much if you're talking about camber. The typical lowered Civic will have NEGATIVE camber of about -1 to -2 degrees, with an extremely lowered Civic about -3 degrees or so.
QUOTE]

Yes, i'm talking about 10 degrees of negative camber (positive camber cannot be acheived with lowering without a damn good camber kit), and no, i am not wrong about my camber, and no, it is not as much as you seem to think. I am not sure where you got your numbers, but stock suspension can have 1-2 degrees of camber, and it is not even noticable. If you want to measure camber, create an imaginary axis where the center of your tire is the x-axis, and the very middle all the way down your tire is the y-axis. If the measure of length on one side of the y-axis is the same on the other, than you have 0 degrees of camber. The deference in length though that comes with camber is the measure, because remember, the tire is a straight line. Its basic geometry. If you don't believe my numbers, take a protractor to your wheel, It won't be acurate at all, but if you do it right you will be suprised.

Goullish

before anyone says anything, i was incorrect with this statement...

i was running my numbers, and i realized that the toe in that i have in the rear does not give me anymore off throttle oversteer (the del sol has a lot of this already) it actually increases understeer. I realized that the wieght actually shifts the outside turning edge, which when i had made the original statement i had forgotten about. Toe out will increase oversteer tendencies, and also tire wear

VTEC

I would like to see this "10 degrees of negative camber" you're alluding to. Also, the tire is pliable, and thus, your logic of measurement will be off. Did the alignment shop's printout (usually from an FMC or Hunter rack) give you the measurement of -10 degrees? Keep in mind that most standard camber kits offer -.75 to positive 1.25 degrees of camber adjustment, while "extreme" camber kits offer 3-4 degrees of positive camber adjustment. That would mean you would still have at least -5 degrees of camber even with an "extreme" camber kit.

How low are you? It's a rough estimate that every inch a Honda is lowered is approximately the amount of negative camber induced...ie 1" lowering is about -1 degrees, and so on.

B18C5-EH2

What in the hell are you talking about?

There is NO way in hell you got negative 10-15 degrees of negative camber.

Impossible.

The max negative camber I've ever seen in person on a Civic that was slammed hard-core was -3.2 in the front and -3.5 in the rear.

You will not get -10 or -15 degrees of camber with any sort of 2-4 inch drop on a Civic or Integra.

And as far as leaving the toe messed up in the rear to induce "lift off oversteer" try doing that the correct way by getting stiffer springs in the rear and a swaybar. The method you describe will only murder even the hardest of tires and you will be buying new rubber every few months.

I work at a shop that only works on Hondas and Acuras. We do everything mechanically-oriented on the cars and we also do alignments.

I do alignments ob Civics and Integras every day that have been lowered and I know exactly what kind of specs the car should have because our machine is the top of the line Hunter PC-based unit. I can get a car absolutely perfect in terms of tow and camber if the owner of the car provides me with the right camber kit.

If you have handling in mind then a little negative camber will be good.

For 1992-1995 Civics and 1994-2000 Integras, here's what a good alignment should look like if the car is lowered and you still want good cornering:

Front:

Camber: Anywhere from -1.3 up front to 0 degrees of negative camber. Positive camber is BAD. This will make the car handle like CRAP. The max allowable negative camber up front is like 1.3-1.4, so going beyond that will be "out of spec" and will probably lead to inner tire wear.

Toe: 0 would be the ideal setting for a street driven car. There are ways to toe the front to make turn-in a tad better, but for street use 0 toe is best IMO.

Rear:

Camber: Again the max negative camber will be -1.3 or so. This will keep you in spec and still handle good. The rear is different from the front though because you can actually run a bit more negative camber in the rear because there's much less weight over those wheels to cause tire wear. -1.5 is about as much as you would want to go though.

Toe:

Perfect toe as according to factory specs is .08 degrees. I set the toe dead-on because trying to set the toe in the rear for "lift off oversteer" will only result in instability when driving straight and it will wear tires out way too fast.

Feel free to argue with me on this, but it won't do any good because I've seen the results of this crap first-hand because I do it day in and day out.

I have my own alignment set as follows:

Front:

Camber: -.8 both sides
Toe: 0

Rear:

Camber: -1.3 degrees
Toe: .08

I personally went with the Skunk2 upper control arms up front for my camber correction and shims in the rear.

On the 1992-1995 Civics and 1994-2001 Integra you can use a whole adjustable upper arm like I do for over 3 full degrees of adjustability, or just get the cheaper Specialty Products camber "knuckles" that are installed into your factory upper arms.

The upper arms usually retail for like $230.00 while the upper knuckles usually go for $90.00 for both sides.

For a 1996-up Civic the front arms are necessary. You cannot just throw in knuckles like you can on the 1992-1995 Civics because the upper arms are toally different. I say get the Specialty Products arms or the Skunk2 arms but understand that they will probably hit the underside of your strut tower areas if you car is slammed.

[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 10:54 AM 7/6/2002]


[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 10:58 AM 7/6/2002]

B18C5-EH2

Can I recommend something else real quick?

The KYB/AGX is an excellent choice for struts, but as far as the coil-over sleeves go, I would NOT get the Weapon R units.

I have ridden in a few cars with the Weapon R things and they aren't so great.

I would recommend getting either Skunk2 with Integra rates or Ground Control again with Integra rates.

The Ground Controls and Skunk2s will cost a bit more, but a few years from now when the car is sagging and riding like doo-doo on the Weapon Rs you might think "what other ones could I have gotten?"

I've also seen my share of different suspension set-ups and I can assure you that the Skunk2 or G/C units are the way to go.

VTEC

Thanks for backing me up on that one. I was waiting for someone else that was knowledgeable to post on this thread.

I concur, Weapon R sucks. They claim their products are "Track tested, Race proven." Yet, their "racing" harnesses and "racing" seats aren't even approved by the major racing sanctioning bodies.

esoterEK..

B18C5-EH2........ur the man......dawg.........hahaa......clean up the alignment for everyone........haha...

madhatch

i ahve the integra rated springs on my car and it awsome stiff but awsome also helps prevent some rubbage on the bigger wheels. Thanks for the specs I have adjustable camber kit and want it to be perfect. I copied your specs and Will try them on the machine when I get back

. M i c h a e l

Hey

I have a question regarding camber kits? how hard is it to install them? say for an 2k acura integra?

i was wondering what were the steps involved for installing a camber kit? do i need to pay someone to actually remove the shocks and springs again? or does the camber kit go on the control arm?

thanks