Flatland2D

So I finally got some time to work on my car again. Just finishing up doing a valve seal replacement and was trying to tighten the timing belt. I wasn't paying attention and the belt slipped off as I was turning the crank by hand. I had to put some muscle into it and although I should have picked up that something was wrong, I just kept pushing. The intake cam is now very hard to turn by hand. I don't remember if it was like this beforehand. Turning the exhaust cam a little side to side is much easier than doing the intake one. Could I have mashed a valve when the belt got out of timing? If this is the case, would I also need new valve guides (in addition to some new valves)? Thanks for the help. I feel kind of retarded.

Libertariat

Yes, I think valves aremaking contact somewhere. You should try turning the crank and seeing if that solves the problem. Make sure your car is in neutral too.

Flatland2D

Yeah I know, that's what I said.

Turn the crank one full rotation and try again?

Flatland2D

Thanks for the nicer reply.

Even if I turn the crank so that there should be room for the valves to go, it's still hard to turn. I'll go out and try again, but I'm thinking the valve is already bent and is having trouble going back into the guide.

Libertariat

I think it would be hard to bend it turning the cam by hand.

I doubt it. Are you sure a tool or anything didn't find it's way into somewhere?

You may not need a whole turn either. Turn it a little at a time until the cam moves easier.

Flatland2D

That's also what I was wondering. The valve is really hard and is not easily bent. I was wondering if you could even create enough force on the piston to bend a valve. I wasn't going all out on it, but I was having to put some muscle into it.

Flatland2D

Ok, I went back out and gave it another look. It doesn't look good.

I turned the engine through a full rotation. Even with the timing belt tight, it kept slipping off the intake cam every once in a while. It's too stiff for it to move.

I then put the engine in between TDC and BDC so I could operate the valves without hitting a piston. The exhaust cam again rotated freely and snapped into each position as the cam lobes lined up. The intake cam never snapped into position like this and was much harder to turn.

I think I'm screwed. It seriously sucks having to start back over again. My car's been down about a month and a half now (it's my DD too).

So assuming I bent a valve, do I need to shop for new valve guides too? The pistos are probably ok, right? Anything else I should get? I want to get all this ordered ASAP.

Thanks for all the help.

Slurp56

Before you start buying parts, you should inspect it some more.

I would start by removing the timing belt, then stick a long screwdriver down the spark plug hole and position the crank so all 4 pistons are in the middle of the bore. This will prevent any further piston/valve contact, if thats the case.

Remove the distributor and make sure it spins freely by hand. I've had them seize before causing the intake cam to skip a tooth.

Look at where the cam is getting hard to turn, is it in all 4 cylinders or just 1? When it gets hard to spin, note which valves its in contact with. Can the tension be relieved by adjusting the valve lash?

If not, remove the cam and visually inspect the valves from the top side. Also inspect the cam itself for abnormal wear and also the cam journals. If you have access to a compressor, now would be a good time to do a leakage test. If no damage is apparent it may be time to pull the head and have a look from the bottom.

Flatland2D

Awesome! Thanks a bunch for all the good info. This is exactly what I'm looking for.

I will go out and check the distributor tonight. I'll get around to checking the valve lash tomorrow probably, maybe tonight if I have time.

As far as I've noticed, it's really hard to turn no matter what position the cam is at. I guess that would make sense if the valves are ALL out of adjustement as opposed to just one valve sticking.

There might be hope after all.

Flatland2D

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Slurp56 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Before you start buying parts, you should inspect it some more.

I would start by removing the timing belt, then stick a long screwdriver down the spark plug hole and position the crank so all 4 pistons are in the middle of the bore. This will prevent any further piston/valve contact, if thats the case.

Remove the distributor and make sure it spins freely by hand. I've had them seize before causing the intake cam to skip a tooth.

Look at where the cam is getting hard to turn, is it in all 4 cylinders or just 1? When it gets hard to spin, note which valves its in contact with. Can the tension be relieved by adjusting the valve lash?

If not, remove the cam and visually inspect the valves from the top side. Also inspect the cam itself for abnormal wear and also the cam journals. If you have access to a compressor, now would be a good time to do a leakage test. If no damage is apparent it may be time to pull the head and have a look from the bottom.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh my gosh, you have no idea how much I love you right now!

Turns out it was the dizzy. Quick questions. How should I line up the input shaft on the dizzy with the cam? There's those two legs that stick out, but they can go in at any 180 degree interval. Also, on the dizzy mounting bolts, how far should the dizzy be canted? Thanks a bunch.

With any luck I might be able to get the car running tonight or tomorrow!

EDIT: Ok, just read in the manual that the lugs on the dizzy are offset so they won't go in backwards. I was able to turn the dizzy just fine by hand, so I must have had it in backwards and forced it on. Do you think my dizzy is still ok?


Modified by Flatland2D at 5:45 PM 4/27/2007

Libertariat

+1 for H-t.

I learned a few new things.

Flatland2D

Can anyone tell me about where I should have the dizzy set at for timing? I still can't find anything in the manual about where the stock position is. It just says rotate one way to advance, the opposite to retard. I just have it right in the middle for now.

Libertariat

You should put it in the correct firing order.

Flatland2D

Lol, yeah I know that, I'm referring to the cant of the dizzy that you can to set the timing. What's a good spot to leave it for now?

Flatland2D

I got it running!

Trouble is that it only idles at about 500rpm. It kind of has the slow rumble of a Harley (it's not back firing though). As soon as I open up the throttle it runs perfectly smooth. It's just at idle that it barely sputters enough to keep itself turning. There is a tiny bit of smoke coming out but it was hard to tell since it was dark. Nothing major though.

At first I was thinking it wasn't getting enough air since it ran fine once I opened the throttle plate. Then I got to thinking that maybe the timing is off on the dizzy. I could REALLY (and I do mean REALLY) use an answer to my question about where to set up the timing for stock. Or at least a recommendation to retard/advance from where it is now and I'll play with it some.

It did surge up to about 1000rpm three times during the 5 - 10 minutes I had it running. It'd only last for 10 - 20 seconds than fall back down to 500rpm. Also the ECU has been reset so it might have trouble relearning idle. I don't know if any of this is important but I thought I'd mention it as it might mean something to someone.

Thanks again for all the help!

Slurp56

Just center the distributor in the middle of the slotted holes. This will get you close enough to get it running. It sounds like you're already there though. To get the proper distributor setting, you need to use a timing light/gun. Loosen the dizzy bolts just enough so it can be rotated by hand with a little friction and start the car. Aim the light at the crank pulley and rotate the dizzy forward or back until the 16 degree mark on the crank pulley is dead nuts on the pistol sight located on your timing belt cover. Then turn the car off and tight the dizzy bolts.

As far as a low idle, try adjusting the idle set screw in the throttlebody. Looking at the intake port side of the throttle body, the screw is a standard (not phillips) head and is usually near the top of the throttle body. Screw it in or out (blipping the throttle after each adjustment) to set the idle to your desired RPM.

Flatland2D

I forgot to mention that I did adjust the idle screw last night. I backed it out pretty far (although I didn't know to blip the throttle). The rpm's went up to about 1000 and then came back down after 15 seconds or so.

I'll try renting a timing light from Autozone and tune the timing from there.

Thanks.

Flatland2D

Unfortunately Autozone didn't have a timing light for rent so I had to buy one. I might be putting it up for sale so if someone wants one cheaper than new let me know. Anyway, for a while it seemed adjusting the dizzy helped. Eventually though, it started running worse and even fully advanced on the timing, the light was only showing up just past the white TDC mark in between that and the red marks. There is not enough room for it to adjust any more so I can't get the notch all the way to where it should be.

I may have confirmed my initial suspicion about something being wrong with the air/intake. I noticed a hissing noise coming off the intake manifold. It's a rubber hose that goes into a 90 degree fitting in the manifold. I bought the car with the swap already done, but I could tell whoever did it had to seal that fitting in place. I must have bumped it loose during my work. I put some JB Weld on it and will give it another go soon. I'm not exactly sure what this hose is whithout looking it up, but it's right behind the EVAP valve. If anyone knows off hand I'd like to know.

Thanks again.

EDIT: I found that hose in the manual. All it says is "Intake Manifold Chamber." Doesn't explain anything else about it. If anyone knows it'd purpose, please let me know.

EDIT: I'm starting a new thread for this as it is a different and unrelated problem to the title of this thread: https://honda-tech.com/zerothread/1967942


Modified by Flatland2D at 1:46 PM 4/28/2007


Modified by Flatland2D at 1:46 PM 4/28/2007